The cartridge doesn't do the killing, the bullet does, as we alll know. On my recent (and only) safari we were after blesbok, springbuck, bushbuck, zebra, steenbok, impala and kudu. My buddy used his 7mm mag and 127gr EXP Groove Bullets for his blesbok, impala and kudu. No bullets recovered. All shots went all the way through. All animals expired within 50 yards. He hit his blesbok a little far back and required a second shot to finish it off.

I killed a blesbok, springbuck and steenbok using a 7mm mag and 127gr EXP Groove Bullets. I used the 375 H&H AI and the 272gr EXP Groove Bullet on my zebra (shot at 210 yards) just to see what that bullet would do. I am convinced that bullet is way to much bullet for a zebra. Perhaps on a cape buffalo or elephant it would work better. I shot a bushbuck with the 375 H&H AI and the 272gr EXP Groove Bullet only because I had that rifle with me that day and we came across a nice bushbuck. I had planned on using the 7mm mag - it just didn't work out that way.

I asked both PH's, while on Safari: What do you consider the best all around cartidge for plains game? Both of them said: 7mm mag with a tough bullet. The 280 AI will actually beat the performance of a 7mm mag using the 127gr EXP Groove Bullet.

On my next safari I plan to take the 7mm mag and the 300 win mag as back up or for long shots. I have the 300 win mag worked out to 700 yards and the 7mm mag worked out to 400 yards.

Don

I remember some twenty years ago, right after elk season, there was this character at our local sporting goods store who was laying money down for a new Weatherby Mark V in .378 WBY. All the while, he was cussing his Model 700 Remington 7mm Rem. Mag. over a lost elk be blamed the rifle for.

He said, "I shot that sonofabitch clean with that lame-ass piece o' shit cartridge, but he just kept on runnin' -- didn't even flinch!"

Curious, I asked him, "How far away was the elk when you shot him?"

Plaintiff: "Not that far -- no more'n maybe 400-500 yards!"

Curious: "Well if he didn't flinch, did you follow up and find any blood?"

Plaintiff: "Well hell yeah I followed up, but there weren't no blood. Elk are like that sometimes. You can smack 'em straight thru the heart, lungs -- whatever -- and sometimes that just don't bleed at all, nor flinch, nor stumble. Not even a little! Judas Priest, I been there and thru all this before! (I believed that part!) I ain't no piece o' green hide!"

Curious: "Well.....if he didn't even flinch, and you didn't find so much as a drop of blood, how do you know that you hit him at all?"

Plaintiff (now pissed): "Good frickin'Friday! HELL YES I hit that gawddamn sonofabitch! I was AIMIN' AT HIM for Pete's sake!!!

Curious (now chagrined): "Well of course! If you were AIMIN' AT HIM, you MUSTA hit that sonofabitch!"

Plaintiff (now soothed): "Kid, that's what I been tryin' to tell ya all along!"

I've often wondered how he made out with that new .378.......

AD

Congratulations on your hunt with your son! That is the what sons are for, in the long run, to prove your ability to raise good men. If they are raised in the field, all the better! Your insistance on his practice till the rifle became a part of him, is the way one should approch any serious hunt, regardless of legal chambering. You simply make the best of what ever you choose to shoot on game!

The 300s are fine for plains game in the right hands, even Eland,in fact, Allen Day got a one shot kill on a Cape Buffalo with a 300 Win Mag, because his big rifle went out of service, leaving him nothing else. However,in the wrong hands it can be a disaster. A larger chambering can be the same, but is better suited to the job, IMO!

The only problem I have with the new short mags is, to me they seem to be a fix for something that wasn't broken! I see absolutely no value in them over the very capable standard 300 Win Mag. That isn't to say they aren't good rounds, just that their existance was not needed, and the format serves no additional purpose over the standard 300 mag cartridges. Even the 300 WBY Mag will kill no better than the old stand-by 300 H&H, and it is easier to make a rifle feed the H&H than any of the 300mags, including the new short people that are the current craze! The recoil developed by the WSM is not enough less to make them useable in a drasticlly lighter rifle, and the power is subordinant to the standard 300 mg rounds, so where is the need, or value over the standards?

Where the value of the .375 H&H shines is, when you are hunting in an area where things that bite, stomp, and gore. I want my rifle to be able to handle what ever comes out of the thorn. Simply because you are only hunting wildebeast, the old lion, surprised, when you almost step on him where he sleeps, will not take that into consideration.

Buffalo have been killed with 22 long rifle ammo, by poachers, and some poachers useing the 22 LR have been killed by the buffalo. Many more however, have been killed useing a 30 cal rifle! In Africa, like Alaska, the most people killed, or mauled, were useing .300 cal rifles of one type or other, that failed to do the trick quick enough! There is wisdom in looking at what is used by PHs for their own hunting, and if asked they will neerly all reccomend a 375 H&H for a one rifle hunt, even for plains game, if it includes the wildebeast, and Eland, or if you will be hunting in an area where dangerous game is present!

All this is a long winded way of saying, "use what ever you want, as long as it is legal". But, don't be fooled into thinking because a cartridge is NEW, it is somehow magic, and that the rules of physics do not apply to this NEW thing!

MacD37: I fully intend to test your theory that the 300 H&H kills just as well as the 300 Win Mag or Weatherby. I'm having 300 Weatherby "withdrawals" in that for my next hunt in Zimbabwe, I'm taking my pre-64 in 300 H&H loaded with 180gr Nosler Partitions. That 300 Weatherby has always been an impressive killer for me. Although I've used the H&H previously on deer, never anything bigger. The one and only eland I've ever shot fell to my 375 H&H. In that instance I mistook the ham for the shoulder ( yeah I know I screwed up) and "hipped" him, severing the spine, enabling me to administer a quick follow up shot. We'll never know what would have happened had I been shooting a 300, but somehow I still feel perfectly comfortable with my 300 H&H or any 300. I guess I'll find out in about 10 months jorge

There is enough anecdotal evidence in this thread to make even Katie Couric blush!

Bill, THAT is the intention!

AD

I suppose there are just REAMS of scientific data on this subject out there huh? jorge

Calm down, Jorge. I'm referring to to all the different opinions throughout this post based upon each individual's anecdotal evidence. Not referring to you specifically.

I'm not irate Will, just merely pointing out that this site and others rely on anectdotal evidence for information. Heck, save for say, pressure/load data from manufacturers, every book about hunting out there is anectdotal. No harm. jorge

It is pretty obvious that the WSM cartridges were invented to create a new demand for boring old gun designs. Remington is even worse, chambering the model 700 for boring old calibers like the 8x57 for "this year only".

The Germans are approaching the problem of market saturation from a different angle, by offering new rifle designs such as the Blaser 93 and the Sauer 202.

I dare say that the only new caliber we've seen in a long time is the .204 Ruger, which we really haven't even seen yet. The WSM's are all new cartridge case designs of very old, established calibers, i.e. .270 (.277); 7mm (.284); and .300 (.308). I think it would be fun (un-needed to be sure) to have some new calibers brought out.

My original intent with this post focused on the bias that exists among some regarding what is appropriate for killing plains game in Africa quickly and effectively.



I was told, as was my son, by a self-professed experienced plains game hunter that our choice of the 300WSM was flat wrong. Our results proved his concerns unfounded on two different hunts, 10 months apart. He wasn't man enough to acknowledge our results as fact, but kept mouthing off like a broken-record with the same jibberish...300WSM with 180 gr. factory loads too light.



My opinion is that there are literally hundreds of cartridge types that are more than appropriate for the antelope of Africa. My choice worked for me and mine and I'll stick with it. More than a few factors went into my choice: my son's recoil tolerance, his comfort level with action type, stock design, muzzle blast, bullet choice, cost, available factory loads (he doesn't handload or have confidence in the practice) and most of all: how he shoots the damn thing in a variety of positions and situations. He had to have something that he enjoyed practicing with and could build confidence in to get the job done. Call me a braggert or a proud, biased father, but MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! Too bad an old fart with a narrow mind couldn't see all this clearly enough and congratulate the kid on a job well done. Kinda pity the poor soul. He missed out on a big portion of the fun by making all those unfounded judgements before and after the hunt. I was interested on your take on all this... Thanks for the input.



Oh, and by the way, after all his research, if my son had wanted to take a 375H&H bolt-action with 270 grain hand loads, that exactly what he would have carried. And he would have practiced like hell with it before we got on the plane for JIA. For a one-rifle hunt in Africa, it cannot be beat (Just my humble opinion).

Certainly narrow minded people aren't exactly rare in the shooting sports. With your experience you should probably ignore any differing opinions. I wish I had a quarter for every time somebody with little or no experience told me my equipment was all wrong.

Hey GeorgeS,
Where is that baboon culling. Thats my idea of FUN.
Doug

Nicko,
You been hanging with those damn Democrats too long, your taking my posts out of context, I do believe that there is a difference between shooting plainsgame and the big 5..I stand by my statments.

Please understand that I shoot the 404 and 416 on std. size actions, not a 505, but IF and I reiterate IF as I did in the post your refering to then I would opt for a 505 on a Mauser Mod. 20 or Enfield action simply because I wouldn't waste such a fine action on a smaller cartridge and I would more than likely sell it as I have done in the past....Just my preference and I will not be building any big bores over 45 cal. in the near future as they bother my old Bursitas...

I respectfully reserve the right on AR to change my mind at any moment and I will respect that right of others!

"I respectfully reserve the right on AR to change my mind at any moment and I will respect that right of others!"

Well, pardon me, Sir. Last we spoke of "things caliber", the big dog was still sleeping on the porch. Oh, and BTW, I don't know any Democrats.

I saw a couple today. Man, how they can stand up without having a spine is amazing.
JCN

JCN - I once thought I had Ray convinced to make a run at the Presidency but, at the last minute, he changed his mind!

You and Ray should kiss and make up, or just make up, or just kiss.

If it is just a kiss, can I get a photo?

Will I suggest it might be one of those, " I did not have sex with that man" situations. "D"

We wonder which one is who?

One is looking decidedly happier than the other

It takes more than brass balls to make a go of it in Illinois politics. I spent almost forty years there. Yikes! That place gives New Jersey a run for its money in the sleaze department. There is a separate category on the Jeopardy show: Former indicted governors for $200.00.
If Ray was the Sheriff and Will was the Marshall we might make some progress.

Saeed, things are not always as they appear. It's been a torrid affair!

I wish I had your knowledge of Photoshop!

And who is the one looking on with jealousy?

Customstox, I believe was the name.

Ray said:

Quote:

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Nicko,
You been hanging with those damn Democrats too long, your taking my posts out of context ...

Please understand that I shoot the 404 and 416 on std. size actions, not ...

























I respectfully reserve the right on AR to change my mind at any moment and I will respect that right of others!

---

And on the Seventh Day, Lord Ray awoke and tapped his ash bag and saw that the wind was blowing in the proper direction for building .404 Jeffery's on CZ 550 Magnum actions ... and He saw that it was good. Amen.

Walter must be right then, as all these 3 individuals are friends of mine.

Not relatives mind you, just friends