Gentleman,



As some may have read on Hunting Reports, I recently returned from a very successful 7-day plains game hunt in the North Province Limpopo River area with my 17-year old son. He took the lion's share with 6 nice trophies consisting of a nice old S.G. Kudu bull, Impala ram, Warthog boar, big Zebra stallion, decent Blue Wildebeest bull and a big male baboon that had been kicked out of its troop and was causing some trouble with the locals. He used 8 shots from a Ruger M77 in 300WSM with 180 gr. Win. Ballistic Silvertips to take the 6. 4 went down quick with 1 shot each, the impala and baboon each took a second shot to expire. Longest shot was 280 yards on the Kudu thru the neck, dropped in its tracks. I shot a nice Limpopo Bushbuck (shoulders) and heavy horned Impala (neck shot)with a one-shot quick kill each.



Now the point of all this is that before we started hunting, the senior hunter in our party of 7 had expressed grave concerns over us using a 300WSM on plains game, even after I had taken 4 nice animals in Aug 2003 with 7 shots, an Impala with one-shot and 3 other antelope with 2 shots each. After this hunt wherein 8 animals fell to 10 shots, he still persisted to discount our success as a fluke.



Anybody understand this kind of mindset? Maybe, it's just me, but if something is working, what's the problem? I guess some folks just despise certain cartridges without justification.

The "senior hunter in our party of 7" must not be much of a hunter, and proved it with his mouth! Has he ever been to Africa? Has he ever hunted plains game? Sounds like not.

Actually, what is interesting is the use of Ballistic Silvertips. I thought that the old Silvertips were regarded as rather "fragile", and that most folks recommended Nosler Partitions (which is what I used). I am not sure what Ballistic Silvertips are. Are they different from Ballistic Tips which are also regarded as rather fragile, or am I all wet?
Peter.

What were his reservations about it?

Did he think a larger bore was required?

Did he think a 'less powerful' cartridge was preferable?

Maybe it's the bullets he doubted. I don't use Ballistic Tips in Africa (although I think they'd be just ideal for baboon culling ).

Seriously, the .300WSM is equivalent to .300Win. Mag.ballistically speaking, and few would doubt the .300Win. Mag.'s ability to take the game you mentioned.

George

There's a certain bias against various American cartridges, particularly high-velocity numbers, that you'll run into on occasion in Africa. Sometimes it seems that unless it's some old British cartridge dating from the WWI period, it just doesn't seem to cut it in the eyes of some of these folks.

I remember one PH in particular that acted as if any sort of bullet I might launch out of my .300 Winchester was going to bounce off eland, but after one 180 gr. Nosler blew a hole through both lungs and the eland was on the ground after taking a few steps all criticism ended. I've run into this stuff before, but I don't pay much heed to this nonsense. I hunt with the rifles and cartridges of my own choosing........

AD

allen'



Bravo! My words exactly to this guy. He has been to Africa 7 times for plains game. He is your basic 375H&H or better kind of guy. Very much dislikes any high speed stuff under a 270 gr. 375. Considers a 338 Mag as bare minimum.



In an e-mail, I stated when he starts paying the airfare, daily rates and trophy fees I might listen to his jibberish, until then I'll hunt with what I want, where I want, as long as it is legal. Haven't heard back yet.



The Ballistic Silvertips are a Combined Technology effort between Nosler and Winchester. They have a fairly heavy jacket, moly coated and a polymer tip. Penetrated well in the heavier stuff. We used CX3's for "large heavy game".

Doesn't matter if he's been to Africa 20 times--he still demonstrated with his mouth that he isn't much of a hunter. I doubt that I would listen to anything he had to say, based on his demonstrated ignorance. And not only ignorant, but not smart enough to keep his mouth shut, thereby allowing everyone to clear their minds of any doubt regarding his ignorance.

The next fellow may have damn good reason to feel the way he does, as to cartridge selection. With that, there is no greater waste of time than forcing one's opinion, as hunters, as well as hunting itself, are rife with variables. No doubt, the .30's work for Kudu, Zebra, Wildebeest and other mid-heavy plainsgame. No doubt, to my mind, the .375's excell.

Damn, you beat me to it.

Some guys have been out in the noonday sun too long, or not enough? Because the guy wants to use a .375 H&H, that makes him a bad hunter? Webster's Dictionary, please!

Of course you can't expect some kid to be shooting a .375, but that does not mean a .300 WSM is as good as a .375 or anywhere close to it.

One might even go so far as to say those 6 or 7 animals would have more likely dropped as if hit by lightning if a .375 H&H had been used.

If this fellow wants to use the fine .375 H&H or something even bigger for all of his plainsgame huting, that's just great. The Three-Six-Bits certainly has nothing left to demonstrate, at least as far as plainsgame and cats is concerned.

After thirty years of elk hunting and some plainsgame hunting in Africa, I'm convinced that any good elk cartridges makes for a dandy all-around plainsgame cartridge, and that can mean anything from .30-06 thru .338 Win. Mag. From what I've seen so far, this sort of ordinance drops stuff, for practical purposes, just as well as the .375 and is lighter to carry, shoots as flat or flatter, etc.

No levitation act followed by an airplane-spin and bodyslam, but the animals do go down well if hit well with a good bullet........

AD

AD,

Crap. I was looking forward to a good Tuesday afternoon argument. You're right in that, in most cases for the little stuff, the bullet and not the caliber or cartridge that makes the most difference.

What to use in Africa how about this, in this order...A good shooter...With confidence in gun and ammo, and with the rifle he has chosen and a appropriate bullet for the animals hunted..


Mike

Mike,

Again, we agree. Mark pretty well fit all those conditions. I had him practice every week for 8 months before we got on the plane. After the first 6 weeks, he said he loved that rifle. By the time we left he felt like it was part of his anatomy (no pun intended). Even if he only shot a mag full at milk jugs, he had the Ruger in his hands shooting the ammo we were taking on the hunt.

Wasn't too surprising when that Kudu went down hard with one shot. Once he had his feet under him, anything he set the crosshairs on, died quick. His last animal, the old lone rogue baboon that we chased over hill and dale, was shot offhand, as it ran at a measured 275 yds. from an elevated position, about 150 ft. below our feet. A shot to remember. The PH, a Texas boy just turned 40, said it was the damnest thing he ever saw a teenager do. Yeah, I'm a proud papa, can you tell?

His thinking probably ran along the line of: There's no way that stubby little case could generate enough power to do the job.

There are many experienced game ranchers who require a 375H&H or more for BWB. They have spent too many hours tracking those tough beasts to take chances.

While the fast 300s are fine for most plains game with the right bullets (and I would say Silver Tips and Ballistic Tips are both too soft), they are marginal on BWB and Eland. For those, I would say a 338 or 375 are ideal.

That's not to say you can't kill those species with those calibers. Hell, I've made a one shot chest kill on a BWB with a 250 Savage, I've taken an Eland with a 20ga paradox slug, and I've read of buffalo taken with a Hornet. But that doesn't make them adequate. The fact is, no matter how good you are, in the field shot placement is not always perfect. That's when the safety margin comes into play.

I'm going to second Russ on this one. Not everyone has the opportunity to shoot daily for 8 months, and you are to be commended for seeing that your son took the opportunity since it was available, and for those for whom it simply isn't possible to grow that familiar with the rifle a little extra bore diameter is comforting. Personally, I'm one of those who favors a long-for-caliber bullet at around 24-2500 fps. The last big 30 I had was a traditional H&H, but that doesn't make the WSM a poor choice. It isn't. Good bullets, well placed, work.

Rhs

Great shooting and very glad you & your son had a great hunt. don't listen to old hands who don't know what the heck they are talking about.sometimes they don't move with the times.

I hunt with a fantastic group of friends who use both 300wm and 300wsm and guess what they are equal! I have seen one shot stops with both 30 calibers on game up to eland size, with full pass thrus.

We use Norma oryx, winchester failsafe and remington bear claw shells. Essentially anything that is bonded and accurate in those guns will get any plains game if you do your part. Recently we tried some SA PMP stuff which although not as accurate and clean seems to do the job well too.

300wsm & 300wm are great calibers. that bloke doesn't know what he is talking about. Yes .375 is a good middle of the road, but i prefer shooting all plains stuff with 300wm(would have a 300wsm, but ammo is cheaper on the older harder recoiling wm.) although i have done any dangerous game as yet, i'm planning to go 400 or higher for my DGR.

great to hear you had a good time. happy hunting.
tm

Years ago, I had the hots for the 270 Winchester, so I built myself a 270 Ackley.

I asked my PH if it would be alright to use that on plains game, and his answer was a very simple "yes".

I loaded 130 grain Barnes X bullets, at around 3,100 fps and went hunting.

I shot every plains game with it, except eland. These include sable, zebra, kudu, waterbuck, blue wildebeest and all the rest.

I used that rifle on several hunts, bagging close to 500 animals with it, and never actually felt I needed anything bigger.

And as to eland, I also built another wildcat for the 270. This one was based on the shortened 404 case - and shot an eland with it at over 500 yards. That was the furthest shot I have ever taken at an animal. I used the Jensen 150 grain bullets. Two shots were fired at him, both hit him in the shoulders. One went through and never found, and the other was found under the skin on the opposit side.

Some of our friends on this forum think the 375 is too small to use on buffalo and elephants, but those of us who have been using it for years know better

My favorite plainsgame rifle is the 338 Win. but I have used the 308, 7x57, 30-06, 416, 404, 450-400, 375 and 300 H&H as I recall and maybe more...All with exactly the same end result...Nor can I tell what caliber was used on an animal by the observed wound or the internal damage at least for the most part...

Bullet placement and bullet integrity is the clue to success, not caliber...

I agree with most all of what was said. A 300 mag of any description is enough for most plains game. I am wrestling with what rifle to take next year for a similar hunt. 300, 375, 416. Not because none are not adequate but because I like them all and I really don't want to take 3 rifles. I would look at bullets besides the silvertips for the larger game. What bullet is the CX3? I am not familiar with that one. I would go with North Fork, Swift A-Frames, Barnes X or TSX, Bear Claws or some other premium bonded bullet since the rules are, "You hit, it you pay for it". Use what rifle you want. It is interesting that when I asked the same basic question about 3 months, ago both Saeed and Ray said take a 300 mag as the first choice. They have arguably about as much experience combined as any on the board. I am still not sure which two rifles go with me, likely a 300 with Nosler partitions and a 375 and SAF's. Good hunting. "D"

Saeed, Saeed, Saeed!

I am surprised that you are still giving out sub-.375 recommendations!

D: It is good to read your post on this matter. This Oct, as you know, I will be in RSA and I think I will be only shooting my .300 Wby w/180gr NPs. My nephew will be shooting 210 gr NP in .338 Win Mag. I feel certain if I place the bullets right all will go well. I think the toughest animals will be wildebeast and kudu. But I will complain if I properly smack a beast and it does not fall down fast. It is absolutely horrible to have to worry about such things.



Saeed, the good man that he is, always steps in and lends credibility to an arguement that needs a little credibility. I personally prefer rifles from .338 on up for everything, but I do have a fondess for .270s and I am certain that they are up to most tasks. Ray's influence and credibility also brings substance to the theory of bullet construction and placement. But I have to admit, both Saeed and Ray seem to use some pretty damn big rifles on a routine basis for most stuff! And that, I think, speaks for itself.



Robert

Winchester prints this little rating on their loaded ammunition boxes where they rate how controlled the expansion is/what game it is suited for. The bigger the number, the larger the game the load/bullet is rated for.

I completely agree with Saeed.

The .300 WSM, properly placed with the first shot, like the .270 WM AI, will kill any plains game animal in Africa anytime! I know. I used a .300WSM to take 5 plains game animals, including Wildebeest, Haartebeest and Gemsbok (Oryx). ALL needed only one shot each from a 180 gr. TBBC (Trophy Bonded Bear Claw).

As a side note, I would not use Ballistic Tips for any of the larger plains game mentioned. I tried them out on a norther Caribou hunt and was disappointed with their performance at closer ranges.

Wasnt it Finn Aagard that said the same thing you did Ray?

I don't care how you and Saeed try to hide it, even with good placement and bullets there will be times, and not infrequently, that plainsgame will run off, though maybe dead on their feet, when shot with sub-.375 calibers, that otherwise would have dropped on the spot, my preferred reaction.

My PH in Namibia, after our discussing my collection of rifles, advised me to bring either the 7x64 with 160's or the 300 H&H with 180's or 200's. Other than a 6mmPPC, the 7x64 is the smallest caliber I own. I leave in September so we'll see. Also bringing the 9.3x64 just for

.

I was in the Jo'Burg airport talking to 4 guys about our hunts. It was the first for all 4, and they had had a wonderful time. They were telling me how tough African game was and a Waterbuck that it took several shots from a 375 to bag.

I showed them the Waterbuck my wife got(on digital camera). They asked what she shot it with. I replied 1 shot kill from a 7 MM Rem with a 150 X bullet.

Alf,



What is the point of these forums if I can't stir things up?



But a case in point: Sable, broadside at 75 yards, shot in lungs with a 280 Rem., Nosler Partition, ran off into thick brush, impossible to track, and no blood spoor.



Suppose to fall in its tracks. It didn't. Took three hours to find it, dead a hundred yards away.



Anybody that tells me a 280 is as good as a 375 is full of it.



P.S.



But then there are those that swear a .404 Jeffery is better than a .416 Rem. Mag. ... go figure.

The problem is that even though I try to point out the obvious it still go unseen.

So be it.

Will,
I have shot a lot of plainsgame with the 416 Rem, 375 and so forth that ran anywhere from 20 to a 100 yards with heart/lung shots..Not uncommon with the big bores at all nor with a small bore..the plus is the big bores bruise less etable meat and leave a better blood trail..

If I wanted an instant kill I would use a very high velocity round like a 150 gr. 300 Wby and eat what little was left...With very light hi vel calibers there is a high percentage of instant kills and a few blows up that allow the animal to escape and die a lingering death, the 220 swift and 22-250 come to mind.

My point being that an instant kill means little as compared to the positive kill of a bigger bore or heavy constructed bullet..I want that good blood trail and lack of bloodshot meat.

Next time I go plains game hunting, I will take a 6mm Ackley I have built.

I will make a note of how far the animsl run after being shot, and compare that with those shot with the 30/404.

I am leaving my 375/404 home then, no need to have a bloody canon for plains game is there?!

Saeed,



It is my own fault for taking this so seriously. It is highly unlikely that I will take any shots at plainsgame in the future, so why bother?!!



There are what I consider a lot of urban legends around (little calibers on big game, barrel band swivels, Mod. 70 safeties, etc.) that I think are bunk, but everyone should do what they think is best.

Ray, within this thread, you state:

Quote:

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Bullet placement and bullet integrity is the clue to success, not caliber ...

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Quote:

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My point being that an instant kill means little as compared to the positive kill of a bigger bore or heavy constructed bullet...

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In one post, you discount the merit of caliber and in the next you embrace it. In a recent ".416" thread, you stated that, if you were going to carry around an action large enough to accomodate a .416 Rigby, you would opt for a .505, "real hammer" (or words to that effect), yet, here you say you really don't see much difference. Why not think through, the value of increased caliber, especially, from the perspective of the serious, non-resident, trophy hunter and take a stand?

The bottom line is that hunters often base their opinions on limited and anecdotal evidence...then will vociferously argue their stance is correct to the exclusion of all others.
One man will hit x trophy antelope in the spine at 350 yrds and his caliber/bullet will suddenly become the hammer of thor. The next day his partner will hit several in the lungs which also die after running 50-100m and that caliber becomes 'marginal at best'.
The most important factor is confidence in your weapon. People kill lots of big game with .223 and smaller every year, this doesn't make them ideal, but it works for them, and it works damn well...some here don't feel confident going on a dream hunt with anything less than caliber x, so be it: different strokes for different folks.

Nickudu,

Now, now. You are taking this too seriously.