Gents, I seem to recall reading on more than one occasion, that cats are very sensitive to high velocity cartridges as a result of their highly "tuned" nervous system. Can any of you guys point me to a source or based on personal experience? I seem to recall reading it either on one of Boddington's books? also, I have seen this apparent result on quite a few hunting videos. Thanks, jorge

I have read that too, as well as that one should use fast expanding bullets like normal soft points.

I have shot leopards with a 270 Ackley, 130 grain Barnes X and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 140 grains.

7mm Lazzeroni Firehawk 160 grain Swift A Frame.

375/404 300 grains Barnes X and Walterhogs.

416 Rigby Improved 400 grain Bear Claws.

Some drop dead from the tree.
Some run a few yards and drop dead.

So I cannot really say that any one was better than the others.

Same for lions.

I have shot them with 300 grain Barnes X and Walterhogs. And 400 grains Bear Claws.

I cannot remember any of them going further than 20 yards.

"higher tuned nervous system"

Seriously funny ! and falls in the same category as being "full of adrenaline"

Thanks, Saeed. I'm just trying to find the reference other than me speaking personally to folks like you with lots of experience. On the videos I've seen, the cats do definitively react to the faster bullets, but that is purely anecdotal. I think maybe on one of Craig's books or that book on leopard hunting, the author's name is Graham something. j

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


"higher tuned nervous system"

Seriously funny ! and falls in the same category as being "full of adrenaline"

would it make you feel better had I written "highly developed" instead? BTW, I subscribe to that theory, with moose being at the other end of the spectrum. Then again, WTF do I know...

From The Perfect Shot by Kevin Robertson (Page 122):

"Leopard are thin-skinned and light-boned. In body size they are similar to and not much heavier than a mature impala ram. Like the lion, they have a highly refined nervous system that can easily be switched off by the hydrostatic shock liberated from some of the smaller hunting calibres and bullets that are suitably heavy, fairly fast and relatively fragile."

I have read the same thing. My sample size is one leopard, shot with a 180 grain partition from a 300 wm at 47 yds. Dead kitty under the tree.

Jorge,
Bison are also on the phlegmatic side of nervous systems, showing little reaction to a shot.

Out of 3 successful hunts for leopard all 3 got 2 shots in them..375 Barnes p and 30.06(oryx).

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Out of 3 successful hunts for leopard all 3 got 2 shots in them..375 Barnes p and 30.06(oryx).

Bloody hell!

You are getting better value for your money!

Mine all died with one shot

2 have been hanging for dear life in the tree and one in a cave. All 3 should have died after the first shot but game with sharp claws and horns I keep shooting until they are not moving

Guys,

This is kind of like the how many shots to kill a buffalo thread. Most hunters have not killed more than 1-2 leopards if any so my guess is whatever worked well for them will be their answer be it high velocity and a frangible bullet or their buffalo rifle with a big bullet at moderate velocity. Personally most of my clients have just used their buffalo rifle to good effect. I've shot three leopards myself and the one that basically just relaxed and stayed in the tree following the shot was killed with a 375 300 gr Trophy Bonded at a sedate 2450 fps. The other two were killed with much higher velocity rounds. One was dead before it hit the ground and the other rolled down hill about 50 feet and died there. I don't think any of this proves anything.

To the questions if a client told me he was planning on using a 270 with a 130 ACB or similar for leopard I'd tell him to go for it. I'd tell him the same thing if he was planning on using his 375 with a 300 TSX. I just don't think it matters as long as the hit is in the boiler room.

Mark

My experience is limited to one leopard dead under the tree. Shot placement and rapid bullet expansion seem to be key. I used a 375 H and H with the old A-Square Lion load. Way to soft for lion but it did a marvelous job on my cat. Didn't even exit.

i dunno my catsd were shot with either a 165 partition in 3006 or a 286 or 300 in 9.3x74. i didn't see any difference whatsoever. the one thing to be noted is the damage to the far side of the hide with a high velocity bullet is going to much more extensive and give the taxidermist extra work to cover if it is possible

I have only shot one. I hit him with a .264 Win Mag using 140 gr. handloaded Nosler Partion's at 2950fps. His near leg was forward and I hit him square in the center of his off shoulder.At the shot he went up and over backwards and rolled around on the ground.

Shot a few but 2 drop dead in their tracks. One with LG Eley Alfamax 2 3/4 at 3mts on a full on charge head shot and the second with 30-06 180grs SP by S&B at 10mts heart shot regular std velocity.

quote:

This is kind of like the how many shots to kill a buffalo thread

I don't think so, Mark or at least that was not my intention. I merely asked for experiences and especially if they had read this somewhere( as I have and more than once) and if so, where as Mike cited.

Well for a statistically insignificant sample 4 cats, 2 lion and 2 leopard, all dropped to the shot with a .375 H&H 300 grain TSX. None of them moved after being shot.

The first lion got insurance paid, the rest all did not have any second shots involved.

jorge,

Sorry if I offended you somehow. I had no intention of belittling your question. My point was people tend to believe whatever they've used successfully for whatever purpose to be if not the best at least more than up to the task. A 300 WBY is Hell on leopards but as I stated the 375 works fine also. And yes I have read that high velocity works great for leopards.

Mark

Very simple - shoot them in the right spot and they die! Don't, and they won't....period!!!

African cats are not special, they are just thin-skinned cats of 140lb - 500lb, nothing more. Like Saeed, I've personally shot them with many different calibers (I've shot 19 lions / leopards) and they all died / fell immediately - including one bow shot lion in Tanzania.

I would simply use a reasonable caliber / bullet, and go hunting, period! Stop over-thinking all of this. They are cats, they are not mythical dragons - no more than buffalo, elephants or rhinos.

Two leopards two 300gr TSX new pristine 375 reloaded cartridges loaded and fired two dead cats DRT...

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
2 have been hanging for dear life in the tree and one in a cave. All 3 should have died after the first shot but game with sharp claws and horns I keep shooting until they are not moving

You should use a wildcat, then this will never happen.

quote:

use fast expanding bullets like normal soft points.

If there is no expansion the bullet will simply zip through like a hypodermic needle - the cat (or any other animal for that matter) will therefore be oblivious that it has been shot until a while later unless a point within the CNS has been hit.

quote:

I would simply use a reasonable caliber / bullet, and go hunting, period! Stop over-thinking all of this. They are cats, they are not mythical dragons - no more than buffalo, elephants or rhinos.

.....

Jorge - it is my experience that a leopard can be killed instantly by a healthy dose of hydrodynamic shock when it is dumped into the chest cavity. Have seen this happen a number of times but it only works when the right bullets are used. The South African ammo company PMP make a 300 grain .375 H&H round nose soft point. Comes in a brown box with the picture of a poor quality, sexually immature buffalo bull on it. Heaven help anyone who tries to use these 'cheap and nasty' bullets on a buffalo - because they don't even shoot through an impala! They come apart in spectacular fashion even in impala - like a 300 grain hand grenade! For leopard however these bullets are ideal! I have personally witnessed large mature Tom's die instantly when shot in the chest cavity with these fragile bullets. Careful autopies revealed the CNS were not hit - and yet the Tom's died as if lightning struck. My only assumption to these phenomenon was that it was the rapid release of almost 4000 foot pounds of kinetic energy into the chest cavity while pulverizing the heart and lungs which killed the Tom's instantly. None of these bullets exited so this was 'energy dumping' to the extreme.
Some time ago I helped the knowledgeable folks at North Fork bullets develop a 'feline specific' bullet. They now call it their PP for 'Percussion Point'. Out here in Africa we call them 'Pussy Pounders' because this is what they really are! The regular 300 grain .375 NF SP is fully expanded within about 6 inches of ballistic gelatin penetration. Similar weight and caliber PP's are fully expanded with only 2 inches of similar medium penetration. I confirmed this on a leopard autopsy. On a big Tom, shot behind the shoulder, the entry wound hole through the rib cage into the chest cavity revealed that the PP was fully expanded as it did so. Being a super premium quality, solid shanked expanding-type bullet the PP exited but the wound channel through the thorax was golf ball in size. Leopards die quickly in such instances, but not instantly. It is with good reason why 500 grain .458 NF PP's are now the Kruger National Park's game rangers bullets of choice whenever problem felines need to be dealt with.
Regardless of caliber/bullet selection, the shot I recommend on side-on leopards is the 'high shoulder-spinal' one - through the center of the shoulder blade and the spine that lies beneath it. A shot placed here with any expanding-type bullet and a caliber from 7 mm upwards kills a leopard instantly. The precise place to place such a shot is in the various versions on my Perfect Shot book. Every leopard I have seen shot here was dead under the bait tree - even one with a 380 grain .375 Rhino - a premium 'buffalo bullet'. I see a lot of PH recommend the side-on, 'just behind the shoulder' shot for leopards. I do not believe this good advice. The heart on a leopard lies a lot further rearwards than many realize, and in fact the thoracic cavity, 'just behind the shoulder' is very small and narrow. I recommending shooting a side-on leopard 'on the shoulder' or a bit further rearwards, behind the shoulder. In the large version of my Perfect Shot is a picture of a cut open leopard. See for yourselves just where a leopard's heart actually lies. I hope this helps.

Some good advise there Kevin.
The PMP's indeed work very well on cats.
I think the most consistent performing cat bullets I had ever witnessed were the A square lion loads. It was like throwing a switch on those cats.
These new north forks seem to be the go to now .

Agree totally Jan. You have more 'Mr. Spots' experience in this part of the world than anyone else. Put the 'right' bullet in the right place and it's quickly over. Put it in 'the wrong place' is it's a different and sometime 'painful' story.

Thanks to all of you for the great responses. Mark, no offense taken, I was just looking to find those specific books where this issue was discussed. Doctari, thank you as well for your response. I'll continue to look as now I'm on a mission to find it in writing!

My leopard took a 168 grain TSX at 3300 fps. While it took him a couple of minutes to bleed out, he never moved from the base of the tree. The lion took a 270 grain TSX at 2800 fps straight through the front of the chest right through the heart. He stumbled about 20 yards and then piled up. Still took a couple of minutes to give it up with a fifty cent sized hole through the center of his heart. Even shooting feral cats, they all seem to go down easy but die hard.

Let's not forget that most cats are killed at very short range from blinds. Inside 50 yards. Not all, but most.

Any rifle used for cats, including the .375 H&H Magnum, which is minimum in some jurisdictions, will have enough velocity and energy at that range to stop the clock of any cat faster than Rosie O'Donnell's face.

So, hit 'em in or near the heart and it's lights out, every time, no matter the rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


"higher tuned nervous system"

Seriously funny ! and falls in the same category as being "full of adrenaline"

They do (scientifically proven) have faster nerve conductance than most mammals.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


"higher tuned nervous system"

Seriously funny ! and falls in the same category as being "full of adrenaline"

They do (scientifically proven) have faster nerve conductance than most mammals.

May be.

But that will not stop them dying with a good shot, regardless of the caliber

I just returned home from my first leopard hunt in the Luangwa and I can tell you that a .416 Nosler partition at 50yds seemed to knock the shit out of em'

Maybe it was just beginners luck.

quote:

Very simple - shoot them in the right spot and they die! Don't, and they won't....period!!!

I agree I have only shot smaller species of cats.

The normal pussy I am use to chasseing seems to be high strung.

Reminds me of the old saying why hunters make better lovers.

They like to shoot twice.

They are willing to go deeper into the bush.

And the eat what they shoot

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:


"higher tuned nervous system"

Seriously funny ! and falls in the same category as being "full of adrenaline"

They do (scientifically proven) have faster nerve conductance than most mammals.

May be.

But that will not stop them dying with a good shot, regardless of the caliber

100% in agreement.

I have always said...I would happily shoot a leopard with my .22-250 and 60 gr Partitions if that is all I had with me.

Jorge,
Our good friend John S was seriously concerned that I wanted to shoot my leopard with a 300 Mag...210 gr Trophy Bonded bullet....so it didn't explode and ruin the hide. He wanted me to use my 375....I prevailed and he was shot on a ground bait at 50 yards...like struck by lightening.
Now I will admit that once we got that ol boy skinned, WOW, they have a muscular Physique of a prize fighter...John feared the 210 gr 30 Cal would NOT penetrate that muscle mass....it did, BOTH sides...and didn't wiggle!!
I can still remember to this day, the tracker in the blind...who could barely utter two words of English together....he just kept repeating- "great fucking shot" over and over...until we were all about rolling with laughter!!
I was instructed to shoot just behind the shoulder...I/2 way from top of Back to bottom of belly....it didn't have to penetrate the shoulder mass!!>>>

Cheers,

Thanks for that, Eddy. I too have had discussion with John. When *I* go for my cat with him, my weapon of choice will be my pre-64 338 (for none other than sentimental reasons), loaded with 210gr Barnes TTSXs @2900 fps.

Doctori Robertson wrote in Perfect Shot and in Sports Afiled that leopard did not like softer bullets and more velocity.

Craig Boddington's in Safari Rafiles II and Safaris Rifle DVD made the same observation. I have only seen leopard in a zoo, so I listen to the book writers.

I just remembered that in Safari Rifles II that PH he hunted with in Namibia liked 243 with hounds.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Doctori Robertson wrote in Perfect Shot and in Sports Afiled that leopard did not like softer bullets and more velocity.

Craig Boddington's in Safari Rafiles II and Safaris Rifle DVD made the same observation. I have only seen leopard in a zoo, so I listen to the book writers.

I just remembered that in Safari Rifles II that PH he hunted with in Namibia liked 243 with hounds.

I bet they do not like ANY bullet!

None of the ones I have shot were with a soft!

And I did not hear any complaints from them.

One shot and he is in the salt!

I just love it when people over complicate hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Very simple - shoot them in the right spot and they die! Don't, and they won't....period!!!

African cats are not special, they are just thin-skinned cats of 140lb - 500lb, nothing more. Like Saeed, I've personally shot them with many different calibers (I've shot 19 lions / leopards) and they all died / fell immediately - including one bow shot lion in Tanzania.

I would simply use a reasonable caliber / bullet, and go hunting, period! Stop over-thinking all of this. They are cats, they are not mythical dragons - no more than buffalo, elephants or rhinos.

I agree 100%. From my vast experience of one Mozambique leopard, at 50 yards, one 168 grain TTSX bullet at 3250 fps shot through a spot in the center of his shoulder produced a stone dead kitty 19 paces from where I shot him.

Also, every other animal, from elk to buffalo to the Dagestan tur that I shot last week died quickly from my bullet when I put it into the right spot.