quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Very simple - shoot them in the right spot and they die! Don't, and they won't....period!!!

African cats are not special, they are just thin-skinned cats of 140lb - 500lb, nothing more. Like Saeed, I've personally shot them with many different calibers (I've shot 19 lions / leopards) and they all died / fell immediately - including one bow shot lion in Tanzania.

I would simply use a reasonable caliber / bullet, and go hunting, period! Stop over-thinking all of this. They are cats, they are not mythical dragons - no more than buffalo, elephants or rhinos.

I agree 100%. From my vast experience of one Mozambique leopard, at 50 yards, one 168 grain TTSX bullet at 3250 fps shot through a spot in the center of his shoulder produced a stone dead kitty 19 paces from where I shot him.

Also, every other animal, from elk to buffalo to the Dagestan tur that I shot last week died quickly from my bullet when I put it into the right spot.

yes , gentlemen . That's true. I've seen lion killed with a 243 and leopard with a 22 magnum , both with THE cheapest ammo on the market. Hell , I've seen a Buffalo killed with a 243... and NOT a head shot. All died from one shot.
That does not make these ideal or even sensible calibers for said species.

I'm the first one to admit that cat hunts and all that goes with it is unnecessarily complicated. It does however make things interesting though when a certain combination of caliber and or bullet seems to be more effective for fast killing than others.

Interestingly enough , most hunters who down play caliber and bullet selection for hunting specific species , all have their own favorites...

I just returned from my first safari in Namibia and shot my first cat- a leopard. Although my experience is trivial with respect to others here, the underlying tidbits echoe the thoughts of my PH. Cats are not difficult to kill with a high velicty round, escpecially with the high shoulder shot- due to "hydrostatic spinal shock." He prefers a 300 Win for leopard and a 338 caliber for lion- I'll take my 340 Wby next year.

I shot mine high shoulder, he went 20 yards and dropped. Upon examination I put the bullet where I was told and my PH was "surprised" he didn't drop on the spot from the hydrostatic shock on the spine.

But then again, it was an 180 gr TTSX so it must have pencilled through and failed as it also failed on my sable, gemsbock, red lechwe, blesbock, etc

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I just returned from my first safari in Namibia and shot my first cat- a leopard. Although my experience is trivial with respect to others here, the underlying tidbits echoe the thoughts of my PH. Cats are not difficult to kill with a high velicty round, escpecially with the high shoulder shot- due to "hydrostatic spinal shock." He prefers a 300 Win for leopard and a 338 caliber for lion- I'll take my 340 Wby next year.

I shot mine high shoulder, he went 20 yards and dropped. Upon examination I put the bullet where I was told and my PH was "surprised" he didn't drop on the spot from the hydrostatic shock on the spine.

But then again, it was an 180 gr TTSX so it must have pencilled through and failed as it also failed on my sable, gemsbock, red lechwe, blesbock, etc

First of all, I am a firm believer in the effects of HYDRAULIC shock (in physics, static refers to objects NOT in motion). However, hydraulic shock has more effect on objects containing liquids (animal tissues and organs) than it does on solid objects like bones.

So for a high shoulder shot to drop an animal on the spot, the bullet usually has to hit bone, like the spine.

So you shot your leopard in the shoulder then he ran 20 yards and dropped (dead?). How is that a failure on the part of the bullet? You also stated that your TTSX bullets also failed on your sable, gemsbock, red lechwe, blesbock, etc. How did these bullets fail? Did they not kill those animals?

You then stated that because your bullet was a TTSX it must have pencilled through. Was the exit hole .30 caliber? For a bullet to "pencil through" it does not expand, and both the entrance and exit holes are the same diameters.

I don't understand how a bullet can fail, yet the animal drops dead within 20 yards of where he was shot.

I've shot over 40 big game animals (including a leopard) with TSX and TTSX bullets, and in every case where the bullet passed completely through the animal, the exit hole was at least twice the diameter of the entrance hole. The bullets obviously had expanded. Every TSX or TTSX bullet that I've recovered from an animal had expanded to almost twice it's diameter.

Jorge,

I have an Alaskan pre-64 Win 338....brother to yours...a favorite of mine...AND shot my first two moose with in 1968 and 1070...and that was with OLD Bullets too...Silvertips!!

Cheers,

I'm sorry I forgot to put a in my post as it was meant tongue in cheak.

There is a thread on how TSX are terrible bullets because they allegedly "pencil" through. Truth is I've used TSX exclusively since they first came out (with the exception of my Dall sheep last year, which I used a GS Custom for grins). I recovered 2 TTSX in Africa (one from a zebra shot at 325 yds and the other from a blesbock shot at 186 yds from its shatered right elbow). Previously I had only recovered 2 TSX in those other ? what 15 years. One from an elk shot at 279 yds through both shoulders and one from a whitetail I shot in the brisket at 90 yds, recovered in the back ham.

I prefer to shoot all my animals high, just behind (or through) the shoulder to shock the spinal cord. However, in Africa, I did the up the front leg at the elbow to hit the heart thing with my plains game and the high shoulder on my leopard.

Sorry. I tend to laugh at my own musings and forget to clarify for others..............

FWIW:
.300 Win Lapua brass, Fed 215M, 74.5 gr RL 22, 180 gr TTSX @ 3040 fps

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Jorge,

I have an Alaskan pre-64 Win 338....brother to yours...a favorite of mine...AND shot my first two moose with in 1968 and 1070...and that was with OLD Bullets too...Silvertips!!

Cheers,

Eddy; here she is:

Hydraulic shock waves / hydrostatic shock / hydrostatic spinal shock waves or combinations of above ?

Confusion reigns !

We all understand what hunters think they are observing.

But we need to be clear because there are shock waves propagated by bullets in target though they do no damage.

By definition a shock wave is a supersonic wave propagated in the target ie having a velocity faster than the speed of sound in the target and secondly the wave has a very steep rise time.

The pressure wave caused by the bullets passage is not supersonic and is has what can be viewed as a "normal biphasic" wave form which trails to projectile. The pressure waves we see in bullet wounding are "slow" and they are delayed relative to the bullet's passage

There is a supersonic acoustic wave that is propagated in front of the bullet ! It travels faster than the bullet which is a true shock wave but it does not do damage as is moves no tissue.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Hydraulic shock waves / hydrostatic shock / hydrostatic spinal shock waves or combinations of above ?

Confusion reigns !

We all understand what hunters think they are observing.

But we need to be clear because there are shock waves propagated by bullets in target though they do no damage.

By definition a shock wave is a supersonic wave propagated in the target ie having a velocity faster than the speed of sound in the target and secondly the wave has a very steep rise time.

The pressure wave caused by the bullets passage is not supersonic and is has what can be viewed as a "normal biphasic" wave form which trails to projectile. The pressure waves we see in bullet wounding are "slow" and they are delayed relative to the bullet's passage

There is a supersonic acoustic wave that is propagated in front of the bullet ! It travels faster than the bullet which is a true shock wave but it does not do damage as is moves no tissue.

Keep it simple- I'm just a dmbass that likes to shoot shit. Doesn't matter what it is called. Basic first two Newton laws- all about conservation of energy:

Some or all of the bullet's potential energy (1/2 mV squared) get's deposited within the tissues. I don't care what you call it. If a large amount of the E gets deposited to the spinal cord either directly or indirectly, the animal drops in its tracks. The premise of this whole thread and the subsequent anecdotes was that the cat's CNS is "more" sensitive to injury from whatever "wave" or shock occurs, whether real or imagined.......

And of course with the TSX' flawed design to pencil through, the majority of the PE is deposited on the surroundings past the animal as none is deposited in the tissues .

Jorge,

And that looks like an original Al Biesen custom stock on yours...a great enhancement to value, history and satisfaction for great things~~
Cheers,

Ok, so in physics, a shock wave is a pressure wave traveling through a medium (animal tissue), caused by a body (bullet) traveling faster than the speed of sound. Most hunting bullets from modern rifles are traveling faster than the speed of sound when they hit the target animal.

Animal soft tissues cells are made up of a high percentage of incompressible liquids contained in flexible cell walls.

So when a high speed bullet hits animal tissue, a high energy pressure or shock wave propagates from that bullet into that animal tissue. The liquids in that tissue are forced against the cell and tissue walls with enough force to break those walls, and the wound channel or cavity is created.

This hydraulic pressure wave tears apart animal tissues, creates blood shot tissues or meat, and causes traumatic shock to the body. If the traumatic shock is great enough it can kill the animal.

Because energy is derived from the square of velocity, the higher the velocity of the bullet is, the greater the pressure or shock wave will be.

You can talk about all sorts of science, it will never change the simple fact that animals die because of the destruction of vital organs.

Very simple really.

ok here we go again:

Muscle though water rich is a SOLID
it behaves like a solid and not a fluid ! MUSCLE DOES NOT FLOW AND CAVITATION IN MUSCLE IS NOT BECAUSE OF FLUID MECHANICS ! Cavitation is simply because of elastic stretch.

The muscle does not evaporate into a gas and reconstitute itself after cavitation !

The mass density of water at 20 deg C is 998 kg/cubic m
The mass density of muscle is 1060 kg/cubic m
The mass density of brain is 1100 kg/cubic m

The velocity is sound in water @ 40 deg F = 4600 fps
The velocity of sound in water @ 100 deg F = 5000 fps

The velocity of sound in muscle and brain is around 5052 fps

There is no conventional gun / cartridge combination in our weapons system that has the capability of reaching velocities of this magnitude.

Now there are Chunky projectiles generated from "high explosives" such as grenades , mortars and bombs that travel at hyper velocity and will impact targets at velocities in excess of 10,000 fps. What is interesting though is that they have poor SD and they rapidly lose velocity in target hence their large shallow wounds. Their pressure waves still are biphasic trailing waves.

A shock wave has a very distinct time pressure curve and as it pertains to wounding capacity the only waves that are propagated that qualify as shock waves are acoustic waves and their velocity in living tissue is just at the margin of the velocity limit of the speed of sound in tissue. These waves do not transport tissue ! if they did we would be in trouble as physicians !

Of particular interest in wounding is whether the pressure waves ( normal biphasic trailing waves ) generated by the bullet has the capacity to cause far off damage ie damage away from the permanent or temporary wound channels. There are numerous studies where pressure transducers have been implanted and pressure disturbances measured. This includes transducers implanted in blood vessels. Whilst disturbances occur their magnitude and ability to damage is questioned.

Of interest to is whether passing bullet can induce electrical activity in nerves large enough to cause a catastrophic electrical event such as evoking a cardiac conduction event.
This is of particular interest in bullets hitting a bullet proof vest. In short a blow to the chest can cause a excitation wave in a nerve; but causing a electrical disturbance large enough to put the subject down is conjecture.

A bullet actually striking brain or spinal tissue does its damage through direct crush and stretch and anything else is moot because direct crush is the agent of demise. Brain spinal chord is dense and has poor cohesive properties so stretch will readily tear tissue.

Another problem with actually studying this is to discern between what is caused by the actual crush and stretch of the bullet and what is caused by the injury to blood vessels. Bleeding into CNS tissue causes injury in it's own right.

The question regarding a bullet passing close to the brain through bone is also of intrest and here is is actual motion of the head relative to brain that causes the damage.

The captured bolt humane killer is a good model by which this model is demonstrated.

A typical captured bolt humane killer strikes the skull at a velocity of about 50 m/s and delivers a blow with energy of about 187.5 joule for a 150 gr bolt. This is enough to cause concussion sufficient to put a large animal down if the blow is delivered in the right spot.

The mechanism is basically the classic coup contra coup event. The term water hammer effect has been coined.

Again the injury is not due to a shock wave though our intuition would describe it as such. The brain actually moves relative to the skull.

Just as a note..... if acoustic waves did damage we would be in a world of hurt as every pregnancy sonar or shock wave therapy to break kidney stones or the treat tennis elbow would leave us with some badly damaged patients.

ALF speaks the truth...

...take if from someone who prescribes about 3-5 sessions a day of 2000-5000 shockwaves/patient to be administered on a weekly to bi-weekly basis to 'treat' musculoskeletal injury and expedite 'healing'...not create tissue damage.

quote:

You can talk about all sorts of science, it will never change the simple fact that animals die because of the destruction of vital organs.

Very simple really.

I agree!!!

I see this thread has gone way off track (no surprise)*ALL* I was asking for was books where this theory has been espoused by it's authors. But ALF's dissertation, as always, impressed me and gave me a headache.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You can talk about all sorts of science, it will never change the simple fact that animals die because of the destruction of vital organs.

Very simple really.

More simple:
One organ- brain. No oxygen to brain = dead.

Actually from destruction of the auto regulatory centers of the brain/midbrain, whether from direct insult or secondarily from the lack of oxygen.

The latter includes the various means in which blood (ie oxygen) cannot get to those centers- intracranial swelling, exsanguination from GSW for our puropses, strangulation, drowning, etc, etc, etc. A person is "brain dead" when there is no intracerebral blood flow. Called it (too) many times with a nuclear medicine study.


Lithotripsy anyone: ...take if from someone who prescribes about 3-5 sessions a day of 2000-5000 shockwaves/patient to be administered on a weekly to bi-weekly basis to 'treat' musculoskeletal injury and expedite 'healing'...not create tissue damage.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have read that too, as well as that one should use fast expanding bullets like normal soft points.

I have shot leopards with a 270 Ackley, 130 grain Barnes X and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 140 grains.

7mm Lazzeroni Firehawk 160 grain Swift A Frame.

375/404 300 grains Barnes X and Walterhogs.

416 Rigby Improved 400 grain Bear Claws.

Some drop dead from the tree.
Some run a few yards and drop dead.

So I cannot really say that any one was better than the others.

Same for lions.

I have shot them with 300 grain Barnes X and Walterhogs. And 400 grains Bear Claws.

I cannot remember any of them going further than 20 yards.

............I think the good outcome you have had with cats are more to the fact that you shoot them in the right place to get that result!

I have not taken any cats in Africa, but have taken small, and large cats in North America, and it doesn't seem to matter what I used none went anyplace after being hit. The one thing I did find was a hot 243 win load with a 100 gr Hornady jacketed soft point at 3000 FPS completely destroyed the off side skin blowing a six inch hole in the hide when shot from about 40 yds on a mountain lion in New Mexico.

PH Andrew Dawson recommends a 30-06 with a 180 grain soft point for Leopard, and a 375H/H 300 gr soft for Lion at factory speeds. I must agree with that as well!
........................................................................OPINION only