I have only been to Africa twice and both times in the Save Conservancy so my knowledge and experience is minimal.

My question is simple

How can any hunter not know if the hunt is real or canned?

Now can someone be so naive and gullible to believe that wild animals in africa that are either prey or predator sit and wait and pose while they are killed? Or hunting animals where they don't exist in the wild and have no been introduced.

Is it possible to sell a canned hunt to a client who does not realize the hunt is canned?

Who do these (canned) hunters share their hunting experience with? Anyone who has ever hunted and especially anyone who has hunted Africa will know if the guy is real, a liar or just plain stupid in that he shot a canned animal and is delusional enough to believe he shot a wild animal.

And if it is legal to hunt canned animals - I have no issues with that as long it is done correctly - don't torture the animal needlessly. It may serve some economic purpose - jobs tourism ect and maybe some social (preserve genes ect.)

The issue I have is killing a canned animal and selling it as if a wild animal has been hunted.

quote:

Is it possible to sell a canned hunt to a client who does not realize the hunt is canned?

Yes, and it was done far too often in the past and probably still continues.

I was editor of the SCI record book when the Trophy Records Committee voted to remove all lions from South Africa and Namibia from the book. Indignation of members whose lions were removed was loud and immediate.

It was amazing to me how so many rational men were convinced they had killed wild, free-ranging lions in places such as game farms near Cape Town, where wild lions had not occurred in 100 years.

I understand lions from South Africa and Namibia now have their own category.

Bill Quimby

Maybe I am different (I know I am) - the only time I bring out a measuring tape is after I am done hunting - after some of trophies have done their trip to the taxidermist who decides if they should be mounted or how they should be mounted. I bring out the measuring tape to measure to correctly install the nail to mount the trophy - this too is from pressure from people who accuse me of not correctly centering stuff. I just don't have an eye for detail.

quote:

Originally posted by billrquimby:
[QUOTE]Is it possible to sell a canned hunt to a

Yes, and it was done far too often in the past and probably still continues.

I was editor of the SCI record book when the Trophy Records Committee voted to remove all lions from South Africa and Namibia from the book. Indignation of members whose lions were removed was loud and immediate.

It was amazing to me how so many rational men were convinced they had killed wild, free-ranging lions in places such as game farms near Cape Town, where wild lions had not occurred in 100 years.

I understand lions from South Africa and Namibia now have their own category.

Bill Quimby

One of the reasons SCI sucks IMO

Bill might be right about the past.
But, in this day and age, ANYONE who falls for this is doing it on purpose.

No way I can understand ANY real hunter who can fall for this now.

I was hunting in South Africa a few years ago, and someone mentioned that he heard of a lion terrorising some farmers, and would I be interested in shooting it.

I did not have to answer him, I just looked at him. That was enough for him to understand that this sort of bullshit won't work with me.

A few days later, we hunted on a farm close to Pretoria.

The farmer mentioned that he had some domestic bulls that ran away, and he wanted them shot.

I told him I will be more than happy to do it if we saw them.

Sadly, we did not see any of them.

I don't think so. As Saeed says, not these days.

Yet, I never cease to be amazed at the stupidity of my fellow man.

In another context, someone once said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the average person."

In yet another context, I just heard that the average person in Massachusetts (where the population boasts nearly as many college graduates as any population anywhere) spends nearly $1,000.00 per annum on lottery tickets.

Or, in still another but intimately related context, as P.T. Barnum famously said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I don't think so. As Saeed says, not these days.

Yet, I never cease to be amazed at the stupidity of my fellow man.

In another context, someone once said, "No one ever went broke underestimating the stupidity of the average person."

In yet another context, I just heard that the average person in Massachusetts (where the population boasts nearly as many college graduates as any population anywhere) spends nearly $1,000.00 per annum on lottery tickets.

Or, in still another but intimately related context, as P.T. Barnum famously said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

So when your ticket hits where are you hunting next?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Bill might be right about the past.
But, in this day and age, ANYONE who falls for this is doing it on purpose.

No way I can understand ANY real hunter who can fall for this now.

I was hunting in South Africa a few years ago, and someone mentioned that he heard of a lion terrorising some farmers, and would I be interested in shooting it.

I did not have to answer him, I just looked at him. That was enough for him to understand that this sort of bullshit won't work with me.

A few days later, we hunted on a farm close to Pretoria.

The farmer mentioned that he had some domestic bulls that ran away, and he wanted them shot.

I told him I will be more than happy to do it if we saw them.

Sadly, we did not see any of them.

Saeed:

Unfortunately, many hunters are not as informed as those who frequent this forum. I talked with someone the other day who claimed he had shot a free-ranging wild lioness near Kimberley. It was offered to him as an animal that was going from farm to farm,"terrorizing" the area. I didn't burst his bubble. If that's what he wants to believe, so be it. Eventually, though, he will wake up and realize he was a victim of fraud.

Bill Quimby

IMO the word “CANNED” is one of the most overused, and misunderstood words by hunters and non-hunters alike that I’ve ever heard.

To the anti-hunting the word canned means any hunting they disagree with and they disagree with all types of hunting. Case closed! All hunting is canned unless you hunt with your bare hands as far as they are concerned.

To some others, any place that is private property that is even cattle low fenced hunting of that property is a canned hunt.

To many it is simply a word they use because they don’t have any idea what canned hunt even means and do not know what damage that word can do. It has become evident to me right here on AR that this last one also includes some very experienced hunters. ...............................................................................

I think Bill Q is correct regarding some hunters not being informed.

I recently met a gentleman to is going to Africa (SA) for the first time. Initially, he was going to pursue plains game but then his PH offered him a lioness, which he is going to pursue. It was clear from his description that it was a ranch set up. I did not want to rain on his parade or come across as some know it all AH, so I wished him well.

He does not have a clue regarding the issues surrounding lion hunting. He knows that lions live in Africa. He is going to Africa. You hunt lions if Africa.

Quite frankly, I would not be nearly as aware of lion hunting issues were it not for this forum. Yes, maybe there has been something in the Hunting Report, but this is largely ignored in most hunting publications.

I friend of mine was on a twenty day lion hunt in TZ and never pulled the trigger. He saw a lot of lions but no shooter. He had a great safari and does not regret passing on the ones he saw. He enlightened me to the situation.

Beretta: I actually feel the same way as you regarding not caring about the measuring tape. All I ask is to take an old mature animal that is at least "good" or "better than average" and well representative of the species. To me the "trophy" celebrates the animal and the memory of the hunt. I personally don't care about record books. In fact, last Oct when I did the PH course in RSA, I refused to do the requisite memorization of the SCI and Rowland Ward record tables, but still passed the written exams. That is not to say I can't and don't appreciate exceptional animals, but I find the story behind the trophy is more important. My favorites are the ones I worked hardest for and not the biggest. I am not claiming my idea is better than anyone else's, it just works for me.

Regarding "canned" hunts...canned doesn't always mean the animal is "raised" in a pen and released into a larger area prior to "the hunt". I was told a few years ago of a PH in Namibia (I was told his name but honestly don't remember it) who claimed a 100% success rate on leopard. He allegedly would live trap a few leopards and kept them in some other location far from the camp/lodge. Supposedly, if after a few days of driving the client around, if they didn't have any legitimate hits on baits and time was running out, he would instruct his workers to dart one of his trapped leopard and take it to either a prearranged tree or kopje at a specific time and position it so it was partially hidden and look like it was "sleeping" and leave quickly, The PH would then drive the client past this area, stop suddenly and excitedly because he just "spotted" the sleeping leopard and tell the client to shoot it quick before it wakes up and gets away.

How the story got out was some party this guy was at and few other PH's just happened to be attending too. This guy got drunk and started telling stories about some of his past clients and told about this one client who took three shots at his "sleeping leopard" up on the kopje before he finally hit it. As I understand it, a couple of PH's who overheard this, reported him and he was supposedly being investigated when I was told the story a couple of years ago. Never thought to ask what the outcome was or if he was still in business.

On the "canned hunting story," aren't game birds and the like bred and released for shooting? I know that it happens in the UK and I seem to recollect that it happens in the USA as well. What is the difference? Jes' askin.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
On the "canned hunting story," aren't game birds and the like bred and released for shooting? I know that it happens in the UK and I seem to recollect that it happens in the USA as well. What is the difference? Jes' askin.

Its like comparing apples to oranges - these are also known as 'shoots' and not 'hunts'

This is a bulldust thread and only serves to sow dissention in the hunting ranks.
Are you expecting someone to defend themselves so the next internet Pile-on can happen? My guess is no so how about we stop beating the dead horse and do something that matters.

Direct some of your efforts towards a worthy cause, like the Rhino maybe, and stop looking for a reason to dig at another hunter. His money pays for conservation, who gives a shit what or how he hunts. At least he is hunting.

Before you retort with the, "oh but the anti's crap". Dont bother they are not going to show leniency when they chase down every last pursuit that we enjoy. They just want to stop it. So when you help them kill "canned" hunting, whats next. The answer is all hunting, then shooting, then maybe one day they will outlaw farting and run around the streets tracing your personal emissions and taxing you on that.

Just when I think I have read everything that coud be said about "canned" or "taped" someone comes up with a new one. "All I ask is to take an old mature animal that is at least "good" or "better than average" and well representative of the species." Gee what is wrong with a "mature" animial regardless of the head gear. Personally I see no difference between the above requirement and the person who wants a "Record Book Head".

It all comes back to personal standards, be it a "canned" lion hunt in RSA or carrying a tape or book measurements in ones pocket. It is personal. Some people want to challenge themselves to take more or better or different and maybe others don't see hunting in the same light.

Personally I don't see the great attraction to hunt dozens of buffalo but so what and I am sure some don't see a great attraction in hunting the pygmy antelope so what.

With all being said it is a hoot hanging it out there and seeing who takes the bait.

Die Ou Jagter:

All I was trying to say that was for me and me only and not trying to say anyone else should or shouldn't have the same standard. Don't get me wrong; If I am hunting and we happen to come across the "biggest_____" my PH as ever seen, I would not pass it up for a smaller one standing next to it. It is just that I personally don't hunt with the only intention of getting something for a record book and I am also not knocking anyone who views are different. To each his own.

Edited to Add: Just want to add that my wife and I have a dozen or so animal heads we have brought home. I can honestly say the I have no idea as to the length of any of the horns and really don't care to know. Everyone of them brings back terrific memories of a great time and experience for us to relive with each other and our friends if they ask. If they ask about the size, we both say we have no idea, but it was a great hunt.

When I was doing the PH course with the Goss PH Academy in Natal, RSA, last Oct. Ian has a great old lodge with various trophies he or his family have taken over the past 50+yrs of his hunting career. Whenever we had a chance, to just sit and talk, I'd always ask him to tell the story behind that Cape Buff, or Ele Ivory etc. His eyes would always light up and regale me with a great story. Not once did I ask him about what size or how many pounds anything was.

When we came to the part of the course about memorizing the SCI and R&w tables and it was clear I hadn't done my "homework", Ian asked me why. I told him for me personally, I disagreed with "hunting for records" and I reminded him that if he noticed in all our previous conversations if I ever asked him once "what size _____ was". He said he did notice and that I was the first person he had ever had through the course in his lodge/camp the never asked that, I just wanted the story.

Unfortunately, it didn't excuse me from the course requirement to memorize the tables and I still got a big fat zero in the section of the exams, but I sure heard some great stories that I am sure few others ever heard.

Again - my views for me and me only and everyone is free to have differing views and I am just as happy for them as I am for me.

I know of a "hunter" that shot a tiger in SA.

quote:

Originally posted by African Hunters Quest:
This is a bulldust thread and only serves to sow dissention in the hunting ranks.
Are you expecting someone to defend themselves so the next internet Pile-on can happen? My guess is no so how about we stop beating the dead horse and do something that matters.

Direct some of your efforts towards a worthy cause, like the Rhino maybe, and stop looking for a reason to dig at another hunter. His money pays for conservation, who gives a shit what or how he hunts. At least he is hunting.

Before you retort with the, "oh but the anti's crap". Dont bother they are not going to show leniency when they chase down every last pursuit that we enjoy. They just want to stop it. So when you help them kill "canned" hunting, whats next. The answer is all hunting, then shooting, then maybe one day they will outlaw farting and run around the streets tracing your personal emissions and taxing you on that.

I would bet there are just as many people heading to South Africa to shoot a lion who know the hunt is a sham as those who legitimately believe it's a fair chase hunt. Some guys just want to shoot a lion, regardless of how they obtain it.

That is the point.

I have absolutely no problem with some going to South Africa and shooting a lion.

The problem is when that said hunter shows the video of this and passes it as being hunted.

Yeah but what about the difference between a lion that's been hand-reared and released into a 10,000 acre ranch a day or two before the "hunter" arrives ... and a lion that was released onto a 100,000 acre ranch two years beforehand and has been fending for himself for all that time?

When a hand-reared, steroid fed, groomed and blow dried lion is released into the "wild" 10,000 acre ranch is it really able to fend for itself or will the meat wagon provide catering services?

Does "Born Free" ring a bell?

Steve,

Personally, I don't really think it makes all that difference.

I think the authorities know this, but they had to bow to the antis demands.

I said this in the first post

"And if it is legal to hunt canned animals - I have no issues with that as long it is done correctly - don't torture the animal needlessly. It may serve some economic purpose - jobs tourism ect and maybe some social (preserve genes ect.)

The issue I have is killing a canned animal and selling it as if a wild animal has been hunted."

In the US there are released/canned bird shooting - ducks/pheasants. I have done a fair
bit of it as it is tied into some business event. It is called shooting not hunting - after a while i get tired of shooting. birds that are released, probably it the first time in their life they are flying outside an enclosure. also the delicious popeyes fried chicken i ate this weekend never saw the light of day in its 60-90 day production cycle.

the issue of lions (and canned hunting) is not only limited to south africa. last time i was flying to zim there was this really nice idealistic young girl (poster candidate for the anti-hunting crowd) who was going to some lion park in zim where they reared and took care of lion cubs. I kept asking her who plays with the lion cubs after they are 12 months old and how come there are always young cubs for the next group that comes visit. there are a lot of the anti hunting crowd also involved in the agricultural product of lions.

Again this agricultural production of lions is not a bad thing as it may serve some purpose - jobs, lion gene pool ect. Just when these produced lions are shot/killed - its shooting not hunting.