I am interested to know how many PH's still carry Big Bore revolvers as backups and considering the new firearm laws in SA what would be the top choice if choosing a backup for lion and two legged aggressors.

Ian,

It's very difficult to get a handgun permit in Tanzania where I do most of my hunting nowadays but where I feel it necessary and if it's legal, I I carry my (SA) self defence handgun which is a .40 S&W ADP semi auto. (Esp when I'm hunting cats).

Hey Steve
I was actually searching for your post from some years back where I had read that when the idea came to mind. I am playing with options at the moment as I need a gun to fill both roles in terms of home and possibly client defense and then big cat backup for guiding and hunting. With the current laws I thought that I may have a better shot at passing a big bore revolver through the system but my heart had been set on a quality pistol.

On the revolver options I had looked at the .460 S&W with 5 inch barrel as it has the advantage of being able to fire the .454 or the .45 colt. Other option, although slightly problematic with ammo would be the desert Eagle .50 AE/.44 magnum
They may seem a bit vicious, but I know myself so there is no point in buying my way up, especially with a two year wait for licensing.
Anyway, let me know your thoughts, brutal honesty is acceptable

I also would not mind your thoughts on relaibility of a pistol vs revolver considering you are probably only going to get 1 shot in a tight situation.
Chat soon
Ian

Hi Ian,

I think really its a matter of whatever floats your boat. Although I did have a Leopard get hold of me once a very long time ago, it wasn't serious and other than that, I've never had anything get that close and personal to me. That said, I'd have thought that if a cat does get that close and IF you can get to the handgun, you're gonna put it up against him wherever you can and empty the damn thing into him. Logic tells me the best place to carry it would be on the front of a bullet or stab proof vest. - I personally don't go that far and carry the gun on my hip and wear my leather motorcycle jacket.

I wouldn't worry too much about ammo for whatever calibre you want as Sabi Rifles or Ken Stewart will make you whatever cases you want and you can load your own..........

Are the CFR still taking 2 years to get things done? - you might like to call me 0832777114 and we'll chat about that..........

A friend has a .500 S&W which I have fired several times. I have no idea how ballistics between it and the .460 compare, but it sure gets your attention when fired. Since it has a muzzle break incorporated into the barrel, recoil is not that bad. The blast alone might stun a cat. It does wonders for the guy in the shooting lane next to you at the range.

Hi Steve
Thanks for that. Like everything else I guess its just down to what fits me best then.
CFR are being surprisingly good on my second application. Last call I had from them was confirming a number on my .458 Lott, they said it was 90% through and would be released soon. That is 6 months from the time I submitted application.
My .308 took 2 years first time but that included my proficiency and the original backlog. From my experiences with rifles I cant complain. I did however hear that the handguns were a bit more of a mission. But that hunting handguns were more likely to get through with suitable motivation which my various memberships should do for me.

Any excuse to wear the leathers then hey... Just kidding, I think its the best idea for some protection. My last jacket saved my spine and elbows when I dropped my bike through a round about in Dubai. How did the situation with the cat play out when it grabbed you?

I will give you a call to chat, what time is best for you?
Cheers
Ian

It sure might stun a cat....Worse case scenario you would at least have a means to shoot yourself in the head and save yourself the misery of being eaten by a lion.

Hi Ian,

Admittedly my application was slightly different but my last one took me 6 weeks from start to finish....... so call anytime tomorrow or later this week if you prefer and we'll talk about it.....

Didn't know you were a biker! - I'm into classic bikes and cars in a big way. I guess it's a case of big boy's toys huh!

The Leopard only gave me one dab on my forearm and left me with 4 long, deep and very infected scratches down my forearm....... but it hurt like hell. My own fault though. I was photographing it rather than hunting it and simply got lost in my lens and got too close. Ah well, shit happens!

Hi Steve

Yes I think Toys are my passion. Between guns, bikes and camera gear most of my savings are well spent.

Interesting story with the leopard, must have been quite an experience. Were the shots worth it?
I know what you mean about getting lost in the lense, last time I was out filming a promo for a lodge showing the guide taking "a tourist" who was actually my wife into a rhino sighting on foot. I was filming with camera on shoulder and stepped out from behind cover thinking that we had gone unnoticed by the rhinos. The angle was great until both my wife and the guide started to rise up and move back. When they started to head for cover, I being a no holds barred camera man stayed down to catch the action, that is until I saw the Rhino running blindly in my direction. As I got up she realised what I was and ran as fast as I by that stage was in the opposite direction. Great fun and quite funny video too. Not a leopard, but one of those experiences that I will never forget.

Wouldnt mind spending a bit of time out on leopard with you one day, I think we probably appreciate similar things in our adventure pursuits.
Anyway, I will give you a call tomorrow evening if thats ok.
Chat soon
Ian

Hi Ian,

Yup, I reckon the shots were worth it. I've sold them to various mags over the years but more importantly, I appreciate them. - We'll have to try to get out with the cameras sometime.

As you say, it sounds like we appreciate the same things.

Look forward to talking to you tomorrow.

At upclose and personal, a revolver may be best.
If you shove a barrel against something the pistol will go out of battery and not fire. If wounded, although the trigger pull may be slightly less, would you be able to properly hold the pistol so it would chamber the next round?

Hi RV
Interesting point. Does anyone know whether there have been any tests doen on Pistols to ascertain how much interfearance it would take to cause them to jam?

What you have said is actually one of my main concerns with the pistol, but that said, the blowback on the Desert eagle is meant to be quite impressive. Would it however be enough to say continue to fire whilst engaged in say a lions mane hair, or perhaps with some dust in it.
One thing is for sure, when it does stop firing you are only going to have one hand to work with.
Steve, any thoughts on this, have you had an opportunity to test how much crap your pistol can swallow before it chokes?
Cheers
Ian

It's certainly a good point and although I have no real experience with this to go on, I'd have thought going out of battery wouldn't be a problem because everything is bouncing about so much it probably wouldn't happen. Of course if the pistol were jammed up against an object and kept in that position, as has been mentioned, you'd have a problem.

As to dust, I don't really know about that either. My ADP is fairly loose, so I wouldn't have thought it'd be a problem. I guess it'd depend on the make of firearm and to some extent the individual firearm.......

Sure a big revolver might be better in that particular circumstance but if you intend to use it for self defence as well, it would have a lot of drawbacks. Less shots between reloads and a lot more weight which would probably mean in the longer term, it'd get left in the safe more often.

The big advantage of my ADP is that its light and small enough for people not to know I'm carrying.

Jamming self loading pistols. I base this entirely on the Glock 17(9mm) but would guess this would hold true of other SLPs: if firing with the weapon tucked in close to your body eg from the hip - the slide will not cycle if your body/belt/any other crap gets in the way. Therefore a little care and a lot of practice should sort this.
If you find yourself firing with a big cat/ some other big arsed animal on top it would be very easy to pick up a stoppage. You will need 2 hands to clear it.
Some revolvers marketed as "back up" type weapons have concealed hammers allowing them to be fired under clothing etc. Not sure if you can get them in the heavier calibres.
A back up pistol is not an option for me, but someone in US law enforcement should be able to add with some personal experience of these guns...

Viam, for a pistol in your sinario, the Desert Eagle would be my absolute lasr choice. At around 2+ kilos, they are way to heavy to be comfortable to carry on your hip or about any other way. Having shot one in 44 mag, they seem to have an odd recoil impluse, at least to me. Have have a fairly wide ranging experiance with heavy caliber pistols and revolvers.(44mag, 454Casull, 475 Linebough, 500 Linebough, 500 S&W, 460 S&W, etc.)

To my way of thinking a moderate caliber pistol or revolver would be a better choice. As it could be handled and fired rapidly, one handed, if need be. The heavy kickers really need both hands to control their recoil, and follow up shots would be much slower to get off. They would also be lighter and easier to carry ALL day, EVERY day.

I agree with Steve about his 40 S&W, light easy to shoot one handed, eay to conceal and carry. Other good calibers 45 ACP, 44 Spec (loaded to 250grSWC@950fps), 45 colt (loaded to same #s as 44Sp) Big bullets with big flat noses at sane speeds and recoil, just work.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith

FWIW, I used to have a .45 ACP (2 actually) and although they're a great calibre etc, I found them a bit tad bulky to carry and not so easy to conceal. The ADP which is about midway between the two Glocks is a doddle to carry and conceal and as far as effectiveness is concerned, isn't too far behind the .45.

Guys, thanks to all of you for your input. There is nothing to beat real life experience.

Steve, your point of others not knowing you are carrying is a good one, not having to worry about being targeted because of your side arm is a big plus.

Keith - Thanks for your input on the Desert Eagle, having never handled one and going on a coparison to the big revolvers I see that the weight issue will be a big one. If you were to pick an easily concealed pwerful revolver with my purpose in mind, which would it be. Same again for the pistol?

Do either of you know of any articles relating to pistol/revolvers fired point blank into either lion or leopard. We read a lot about SSG etc not penetrating tensed muscle, any thoughts would be appreciated?
One of the reasons I looked at the faster magnums was due to this consideration and the possibility of penetrating through say ( and this is all just imaginative thinking here) a buffalo skull fired at close range directly at a charging animal. I know the idea is off the charts in terms of likelyhood, but it came to mind none the less.

I have just had one more thought and that was simplicity of use. As has happened before people get shot by the tracker trying to kill the lion on top of them with a rifle. If you had to arm your trusted and unflinching tracker on a follow up with your backup to be able to get in close and shoot a wounded lion from the side or by getting in at the base of the head from behind etc, would this be a "safer" alternative, to having him pick up a rifle and have a go. I imagine that the right guy, with some intense training could be a pretty reliable back up.

So anyway, enough dreaming for the moment, but food for thought. Any comment will be appreciated.
Ian

Ruger Redhawk 6" barrel in .44mag. I'm in the process of buying one. R6000.00 from VLT in Pta. A bitch to shoot, but you get used to it. I tried it on the range a couple of times. Stay away from pistols, it does not matter what the experts say.

We had two charge situations this year, both from Blue Wildebeest. Frederik will post his experience, as it was a very serious charge that he and the client survived....

Ph's get lazy carrying back up rifles, but a revolver, for "back-up" or humane dispatching of animals, is a definite better option.....

Enjoy!

Vlam,

I quite agree with infinito: Stay away from pistols if you want to be better prepared for the unlikely event of ever needing to [You most certainly should never want to! So, Steve and many others how to prevent such a situation.] engage in up very close combat with any cat, or two legged dog! A decent DA revolver, even a snubbie, and preferably one with concealed hammer, of fair caliber on your belt is worh more than any bigger pistol or revolver in the safe. Depending which caliber your back-up plains game rifle is, it can also save a small fortune for cartridges spent on final dispatch shots. [Mine is mostly a .308 win, and I simply use (illegally?) military ammo for such trophy final dispatch shots.]

Just one more thought on humane dispatch with a revolver: I have personally, and most embarrassingly I might add, failed to put out a wounded [broken back] kudu bull by attempting 'behind the cranium shots' at almost touching range using a .38 Special snubbie. No penetration by any of the 5 shots fired! So think of better than factory ammo and/or bigger than .38 Special!

Just my thoughts; not given as "expert opinion" at all!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Carry a S&W 329. Used to Carry a Smith M58 (.41 Mag). Have shot ele and buf in a hunting scenario with the .41 and a hyaena off my bed ( I was in it at the time). Bulky yes. Effective very.

Any semi Auto based on the browning system will not fire if you press the muzzel against anything. Move barrel and slide a couple of mm backwards and the gun no longer funtions. Try this with a very empty gun - press it against wall/sofa and you will be suprised how little presure is required to decativate it.

I actually suspect most PH's would be better served by a good .357 with a 4" barrel. With good steel jacketed solids ( Ken Stuart made me some 160grn) they out penetrate the 300grn .44 bullets. I don't belive any practical handgun has any noticeable stopping effect on lion, buff or hippo. Penetration to reach spine/brain is all that counts. With a good soft point a .357 is a long way behind a .44 on leopard- but you are far more likely to have the .357 along than a bulky .44 you are not used to carrying.

I have a very nice 3" Smith M60 and am looking at one of their scandium 5 shot .357's for a coversion to a bush back up gun.

Thanks you to all who have contributed. I seem to have hit the jackpot in terms of quality of posts coming through this topic.

Infinito - Thanks for that, did VLT have stock? I tried to get from them a year back and they said that they were having trouble getting stock. I was looking for the Ruger Alaskan at the time but recall there was a problem. Looking forward to hearing about the wildebeest as I have always belived that they are a bit under rated on the danger scale

Andrew - Very interesting on the Kudu, this is actually what I had in mind with regards to the smaller handgun calibers. What heads were loaded in the .38. Any thoughts on what a Flat Nose solid like the GS custom style might do for the .38

Ganyana - Thanks for the details, interesting with regards to the penetration of the 357 but I gues sit only makes sense, much the same as the .416 pentration over the .450+ rounds, or is there another factor in play here?
The gun that wont be left in the safe argument is a very good one, human nature is strongly disposed to justify not carrying necessary equipment if it is uncomfortable.
On the .357 with jacketed bullets, same question as with the .38 Snubbie, how do you think it would do with a Flat Nose solid of GS FN style and using driving band design? The have a .308 FN solid so it springs to mind as a possibility if I can get Gerard to make some for me. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

If anyone has any thoughts on backup gun revolver design and improvements I would be very interested to hear them.

Thanks again to you all.
Ian

Tristan Peacock, the "king of hounds" is using a side gun when chasing leopard with hounds. A desert eagle 50SW.



In fact when after leopard last year, he entrusted it with Ryan Cox, the PH/cameraman



and think nothing about backing You up with a bow, a well tuned Mathews.




or is using a taylor made CZ 416 Rigby.

I have a 45 ACP 1911 A1 Colt Government.

I take it with me when ever I go out. It doesn't matter if its fishing, bow hunt, calling predators or guiding clients.

I have dispatched a lot of animals with the 45 ACP and believe me the 230gr lead bullet does not have a problem with penetration.

I have done a lot of IPSC shooting and the 45 ACP always was reliable...

Just being picky , but Desert Eagles don't come in 50sw that I know of. It is probably a .50 AE. Still a powerful round.

JB
Thanks for posting those, it give me a better idea of the actual dimensions.
I take it that he is using it as a primary weapon when he is running his dogs, not as a back up. I assume that in these situations the quick firing ability of the Autoloader would be a major advantage in a hand cannon on a charge.
Do you have an e-mail adress for Tristan? I wouldnt mind getting in touch with him.

Jakkals, have you ever shot a Jakkals with the 45 ACP? I would be interested to know what the reults are? I have shot one with the .357 Mag and it was an impressive display to say the least.
Thanks
Ian

I never carry a pistol in a foriegn country unless I borrow one from the PH to have in camp or in town...

As to back up, if I can't kill that SOB with a .470 a pistol sure as hell ain't going to get er done. Thats akin to carrying a knife to a gun fight.

Ganyana
Can you give us more details on the Ele and Buff as well as the Hyena. Interested in a good yarn as much as any, but would also like to know about circumstances, shot placement and penetration.
Thanks
Ian

Tristan is zimhound@mweb.co.zw (or was last time we spoke.

Tristan has "upgraded" from the .50AE to a .454 Casul

Vlam When the toppic of re-opening handgun hunting in Zim came up, the new generation of (Black) directors and board membrs thought it was impossible. So we arranged a demo in Matusadona NP. Being parks I got to do the shooting. Side brain on anold old ele bull at 10 paces and an anorexic buff (the lake level had come up and all the buff were starving)

Hyaena- Had taken a couple of schoolkids with me over a long weekend when their folks couldn't collect them from school and I was going to do an inspection in Chewore and they wanted to see the fossil forest etc. Arrived at mana pools at about 9pm after all staff were long in bed, so just pulled up some ground under a Natal Mahogany. I had a streatcher and the two boys just slept on the ground. We hung mozzi nets from the tree. I awoke in the small hours to find a hyaena standing on my bed- it was infact his claws sticking into my ankel that awoke me.. Always wore the M58 on a lanyard. At night I left the lanyard loosly round my neck and put the rolly under the pillow- took a nano second to turn her into a rug mount and she graces the veranda to this day- One of the kids didn't even wake up when I shot her! He awoke in the morning to find I had russeled up a couple of game scouts and was supervising the skinning!

We were all issued lanyards (worn over left shoulder) which most people never wore and the few that did kept their keys on them. I think I was the only one eccentric enough to use it for the purpose it was intended. Also, did most of my visits on a motorbike and a revolver worn on the left side was the only way forward if I needed it on the bike.

The night I got shot it was perfectly placed. Ak Bullet broke rt shoulder and I dropped my LMG - but my rolly was just there. Fred (or what ever his name was) joined that old guns collection of impressive one shot kills

PH Rich Tabor wears an S&W 44 mag in a strong side holster when hunting cats.

JPK

k

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
JB
Thanks for posting those, it give me a better idea of the actual dimensions.
I take it that he is using it as a primary weapon when he is running his dogs, not as a back up. I assume that in these situations the quick firing ability of the Autoloader would be a major advantage in a hand cannon on a charge.
Do you have an e-mail adress for Tristan? I wouldnt mind getting in touch with him.

Jakkals, have you ever shot a Jakkals with the 45 ACP? I would be interested to know what the reults are? I have shot one with the .357 Mag and it was an impressive display to say the least.
Thanks
Ian

Vlam,

Yes I have killed a couple of jackal with the 45 ACP as well as dispatched a kudu or two with it.

Let me state that there is no problem with penetration with the 45 ACP.

Will let you know when I am back in Dubai and we must go for a beer or 2....

Vlam i dont guide in Africa but i carried a handgun here in Argentina most of my life ,from a1911 45acp to a SW629 in 44 magnum ,after croosing rivers in la patagonia after boars ,swamps in the north and heavy walks with my backpack or after my DOGOS i ,change to a glock 40sw with fmjs heavy loads ,FORGET THE HEAVY WEAPONS SOONER OR LATER YOU WILL LEAVE THEM IN THE CAMP ,A SW mountain is a good choice too ,dont buy comp handguns ,you cannot perform extreme close techniques because you will burn your face ,and ITS PROBABLY THAT IF YOU EVER NEED YOUR PISTOL WILL BE AT CONTACT DISTANCE ,WITH TWO LEGS PREDATORS .I killed many big boars with my glock without problems inside 10 mts .Juan

While I am of course not a PH in Africa. I have to agree with Ganyana's choice of a 329 PD. I carry one with me just about everywhere in the hunting fields here in the USA. they are just to light and handy not to have one on your hip.

In Texas I carry snake shot in mine and have dispatched about a dozen buzz worms. They really come in handy for that especially when I am hunting with my dogs.

quote:

If you were to pick an easily concealed pwerful revolver with my purpose in mind, which would it be. Same again for the pistol?

One of my favorite wheel guns is my S&W 624 3" 44 Spec. This is one of the Lew Horton custom production models (1-5000). I like the S&W N-frame revolvers with 4" barrels too. Any of these will do, if the caliber starts with a 4 and the barrel is not over 4-5". Ruger Redhawks are well built also but they are heavier than the S&W.

As to pistols, I carry a Kimber Ulta-carry (3")(light weight, 1911 type) 45acp nearly everyday, consealed. A 40S&W would also be a good cal.

Keith

quote:

As to back up, if I can't kill that SOB with a .470 a pistol sure as hell ain't going to get er done. Thats akin to carrying a knife to a gun fight.

Ray, I would still rather HAVE a handgun, weak though they may be compared to a heavy DGR, than to be standing there empty handed or only with a 4" belt knife.

Keith

I've carried first my 4" S&W M-29 and now my 629 Mountain Gun for days in a good holster and forgotten it's there, but then again I'm used to wearing a gunbelt with pistol, 2 magazines, radio, pepper spray, ASP baton, and two sets of handcuffs on the five days a week I'm not allowed to wander in the woods.

The Mountain Gun is a bunch of punch for it's size, the 329 would be more of a good thing. I'd think .44 Mag ammo would be pretty easy to find and it's easy to build effective handloads for. An extra plus would be snake shot for things that slither in the night.

If it were me, I'd stay away from semi auto pistols and go with a good revolver.

I have carried a 475 Linebaugh in Alaska while fishing in heavy bear country. It was a converted Ruger Bisley five shot with a 5 1/2" Pac-nor barrel. The work was performed by Hamilton Bowen and was of excellent quality and workmanship.

It had two loads, each shooting a 420 Gr Hard cast flat nose bullet. The heavy load went out at 1350 fps while the lighter load went out at 850 fps.

The recoil was heavy but controlable in the heavy load while the light load was enjoyable to shoot.

I have a cross draw El Paso Saddlery holster that made the gun comfortable to wear and was easily accessible.

PH Gordon Duncan carry S&W .44 Mag:

Smith & Wesson 327 TRR8 Revolver

Ganyana, thanks for sharing. The lanyard does seem to have the one Pro that outweighs all the cons in its favour, it was there and it saved your life.

I think I may have found a good compromise.
8 shot .357 Mag. mid size, rails, and could be used for competition shooting too.
Now I just have to see what the prices are like in SA

Interesting Article on why it was developed

Any thoughts would be appreciated
Ian

Modern Lanyard

Ganyana
Any opinions on this lanyard design and any major cons it may have. It adresses on of my biggest problems with carrying a side arm when working in that your attention can be diverted from the side arm long enough for someone to grab it from you. Under normal circumstances that would not factor in due to the fact that you woudl be actively assesing the situation. It has however come to light in some farm attacks when the "tried and trusted" employee does the grabbing from his position of trust.

Would you say this could function in the hunting field?

VLAM Looks interesting and no reason it shouldn't work. I initially just welded a new loop onto the screw that holds the grip onto the 329 (modern smiths have a one piece grip held on by a single screw where the lanyard ring should be)

When I changed to Crimson trace lazer grips I had to do a bit of chopping and simply fitted an original swivel lanyard riing off and old S& W Victory model.