The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting 375 H&H Mag or 404 JefferyGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I would take the 404. From experience shooting and handling both Ruger Safari Magnums and 98's. I typically prefer 98's. Both cartridges are up to the task. Take the rifle you like as your primary with the other as a back up. I am taking a Model 70 375 H&H as primary with a VZ24 in 9.3x64 as back up next year for buffalo in Zambia. | |||
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For DG the 404 is the better round but only if recoil is not a factor, in which case the .375 would be preferable..I used the 404 Jefferys more than any other caliber on buffalo, it never failed me.. I also liked the .375 as my second rifle on many safaris..The only down side of a .375 is frontal shots on buff and Ive seen on several ocassions (with softs) a solid frontal hit skid around under the front leg and along side the outside of the rib cage doing little more than aggravating the bull, that's when I went to a 40 cal and/or decided to use solids in the .375 H&H, as recommended by other PHs to me.. Both options fixed the problem..Not only did this happen to me but Ive talked to a number of PH who have witnessed this same set of circumstances. Later in years I read about it, I think Finn Aagard experienced it and talked about it in one of his articals. Today due to age and a roping incident that mangled my hand, I shoot only the .375 as recoil on that hand is horrendous..I can live with the .375 H&H with confidence. Just some food for thought.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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What bullets do you people use? Also weight please. Thanks. | |||
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I`ve used and still using 270 grs TSX and Peregrine VRG 3 for plainsgame in my 375 H&H Mag And planning to use 300 grs Peregrine VRG 3 (Bushmaster) for Buffalo. I also consider 300 grs Hornady DGX but heard that this bullet will separate also in my 375.I Reload all my ammo and get a Vo at 2550 f/sec eith the 300 grs, and 2750 with my 270 grs. For my 404 I planning to use 350 grs Peregrine VRG 3 and 300 grs Peregrine VRG 2 (Solids) or Woodleigh 400 grs RN SN, and 400 grs solids SCI Official measurer. | |||
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.....................Absolutely!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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..............And have the Zebras laughing like jack asses at the guy carrying a funky looking shooter! ....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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375 All day long | |||
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In today's open, diverse and inclusive society. It is no longer acceptable to openly make fun of Blaser shooters.  | |||
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Sorry, this question was meant for Saeed  | |||
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Don't remember any of the four I shot laughing too much. Two of those were follow ups on animals wounded by guys using turnbolts. Neither could get a second shot away in time to stop their injured quarry. The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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Saeed is not being very truthful about HIS .375 I would willingly bet he couldn't pull off half the shots he does with his hybrid caliber were he to use an ordinary .375 Win Mag. | |||
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We are talking about calibers, and mine is still .375  We have used Barnes X bullets before, and they work absolutely great. We then designed and made our own on our CNC lathe here, and we have been using these ever since. No better no worse than the Barnes X. Both have never failed. Our rifles are based on the 404 case, and are kissing cousins to the 375 RUM. We built them before Remington came up with theirs. There is nothing wrong with the 404 Jeffery. It is a great cartridge, and will do anything the 375 will do. And vice versa. I shoot all sorts of large caliber rifles here, and it is fun to do. But, I am finding it not as much fun as when I was younger. I re-chambered a Ruger Number One from 458 Winchester to 460 Weatherby Magnum, so I could shoot sea gulls with it for fun. | |||
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Very true, in fact it will do a whole lot more, as you have convincingly demonstrated. It is still unfair however to class the standard .375 Win Mag in the same caliber category as the .375/404 as it just does not perform in the same way and gentlemen like RH may not realize this and expect their rifles to produce similar results and if that is what they are looking for, they ought to be looking at the .375 RUM or .378 Weatherby (if they don't mind the wallop).  | |||
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I would argue in good form that increasing the velocity of the .375 is considered a mistake in some camps as suggested by Kevin Robertson (Doctari) in his book. NYATI, His opinnion is based on his years as a game biologist and animal veterinarians knowledge and his years of hunting Buffalo and as a PH. He opines that a fully loaded .375 H&H is destructive on bullet performance of any make and slowing the 300 gr. bullet down 2400 FPS makes it a more reliable killer.. His opinion is both shared, as well as highly respected among both African PHs and American hunters..His opinion does have merit and I have observed this myself from time to time.. I suspect this scenario only applies to bullets other than monolithics. Monolithics being the new kid on the block and can be very impressive when they perform as intended. but I have seen many occasions wherein the monolithic has failed, and received reports of such from clients. My opine on monolithics is when they preform they are the very best, but when the fail the fail miserably. I do believe some folks tend to use to light a monolithic on buffalo and cause failure, to penetrated fully a monolithic or any other bullet needs weight and on buffalo a Barnes X for instance should weigh 300 grs. IMO, or at least 270 grs. Personally, Ive been trying to find the perfect bullet for two lifetimes, haven't made a lot of progress so far, school is still out on this subject with me. MOst of todays good bullets work if the weight fits the target is my best advise. We have the best bullets in history today. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Out of all my rifles I carried over the years it was the .375 that I found lacking in my job. The .404 seemed to be sufficient and I still carry it now and again. However the .500 (believe it or not Saeed) makes up for marginal shooting and is the one calibre that visibly shocks a big animal. Hence Baldry's shocking theory. Saeed you are a much better shot than me and most of your shooting on video is first class and you always hit the vitals. Our shooting tends to be hurried and blurry when the shit hits the fan and therefore I would rather use a sledge hammer than a finely tuned tack driver. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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For a PH I totally agree with Andrew that bigger is better. I think for a client a either a 375 or 404 would great. I wish could we could shoot seagulls here in the states | |||
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Heresy. Mike | |||
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The 500 NE is a great caliber...provided your tracker is carrying your 577 :-) | |||
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And the gun bearer has the 600 Nitro | |||
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I saw the same thing happen on a 125lb white doe more the angle of the shot then any thing. A 180gr out of an 06 we had to track her down and give her a finisher. | |||
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Hog wash Andrew! Saeed and I basically like the same caliber - the .375 RUM, or his 375-404, same thing basically. I've not seen a more devastating caliber on big / DG animals than the 375 RUM, period! Watch my videos / tv shows, including the cow elephant I shot with my .600NE and missed her brain. She did nothing but turn and haul ass, she didn't even stumble, and I shot her in the head at 20 yards!! I've shot buff / elephant with both my .577 and my .600, neither have had any greater effect than a well placed 270 gr bullet from my .375 RUM at 3,000 FPS. I've not seen any caliber smash buffalo / elephant with a 270 gr bullet more than the 375 RUM. Perhaps speed does kill!?!?! Look at my video where I shoot the charging buffalo at 20 feet with my .577NE through the top of his boss and knock a silver dollar sized hole directly into his brain pan, and all it did was turn him! I was SHOCKED! He has a hole into his brain bro! Hell, I could have done that with a .375 too. Nobody has killed more big/tough animals than Saeed, his 375-404 does it all. I've shot at least 15 buff / numerous elephants, at least 6 hippos, and lots of lions as you know - with a 375 RUM. I've never seen anything like it. I shot a completely un-wounded / charging buff in Tanzania in 2008 with my 375 RUM right in the face, he hit the dirt like a brick. You can see it on video bro. Bigger is not better, shooting / killing experience is! With all that said - I would prefer a handy double in .577 when guiding hunts for DG, for obvious reasons of quick target acquisition, etc. But for a hunter / client, my opinion is - we (me included) should hunt with a reasonable caliber we shoot well, and too hell with what's bigger / badder. Frankly, I never understand this - which caliber is best question anyway. Shoot em in the right place, they die - don't, and they won't, period! | |||
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So what's it to be Aaron ? You open by rubbishing Andrews comment then proceed to agree that when guiding clients ( which is, I believe, what Andrew does for a living ! ) stating you prefer a large bore double when in that same situation ! Or were you just trying to pitch your videos ? | |||
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The thread is comparing the .375 H&H and .404J of which I base my opinions as I have used both. I have no experience of the magical .375 RUM. There are many variables when using large calibers and probably the most important is the quality and structure of ammunition. I totally agree that correct shot placement is a killer but then why do 100% of African PHs carry large bore calibers? I do not study ballistics but what I do know that if you shoot a .375 into soft wood tree and then compare that with a .500 the effect and damage is strikingly evident is it not? I have shot a number of hippo and buff in the meat of the neck with the .500 which has stunned them and I very much doubt that the .375 H&H would have done the same. Like I said I do not refer to paper ballistics but rather what I have experienced in the field. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I will tell a story from a Eland hunt in Namibia where I use a Ruger Safari Magnum in 375 H&H Mag. After we were tracking the herds of 6 bull for nearly 3 hours, we get into them at about 80 meters distance, I got a good position to shoot, and placed the shot low in the shoulder (Heart area). The Eland bull took a long high jump and dissapeared in the bush, I know that the shot was good, and had no hurry, I get to the spot were he stood and find some blood, we tracked him for about 40 meters and when we saw him he jump up and try to run, at 50 meters he turned broad side and I let the second shot go he took the shot and fell down as a empty sack. When I got into him and confirmed that he was dead, I looked at the entry wound of the last shot, and it supriced me, it was about 1" in diameter, I starting study the surroundings and find a 3" mopani tree with a big hole. Then I got the answers, the shot had went thru this Mopani tree before the bullet go in the elands shoulder. The bullet, a 270 grs Barnes TSX had expanded perfectly before it go thru the shoulder of the Eland and cut the top of the heart.    SCI Official measurer. | |||
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Exactly! To mention the .375 RUM in this thread is quite confusing. I was under the impression Saeed was referring to the .375 H&H. It would be interesting to compare the .375 H&H to the .375 RUM though. | |||
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So here we are trying to decide whether a Ping driver is better than a Taylor Made and somebody brings up Cobra drivers? Wait, am I in the right thread? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Enjoy the show  Not much different from the old argument which is better a 270 Winchester or a 280 Remington. The animals never noticed ny difference. A gentleman at Holland and Holland tried his best to convince me that the 240 H&H Magnum was better at killing than the 243 Winchester. Both drive a 100 grain bullet at about 3000 fps but apparently the Holland is much better at it  | |||
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Like car sales men the best one is the one you are selling at the time. | |||
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. . . but then comparing a .270 to a .280, a .240 H&H to a .243, a .375 H&H to a 9.3x64, a .30-06 to a .308, etc. is a far cry from comparing a .375 H&H to a .404 Jeffery or a .500 Nitro. Mike | |||
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I agree, the Ping is much better than the Cobra. Good thing nobody brought up the Mizuno. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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All I know is that there is only one stage of death. One cannot kill anything deader than dead. And both the 375 and 404 will kill anything that walks this earth, so use the one you have a fancy to. | |||
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Because we're all a bunch of cupid stunts who are obsessed with and are of the unswayed opinion that "bigger is better", but also a great "macho" marketing tool. There is one particularly well-known and revered PH in the hunting world who once swore by his trusty 375 until he got his arse stretched by courtesy of his client's wounded buffalo. He survived and lives to tell the tale thanks only to the presence of the client's wife (Op. theater nurse) who stitched his crack to prevent his guts from piling on the floor. Needless to say his opinion on the 375 changed dramatically, upgraded immediately to .416 then later a .470 thus qualifying him as a member of the Cupid Stunts Club. | |||
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Saeed you took the best of both and combined the two into what you consider the best of African calibers. Therefore we can conclude that you are a middle man? Out of interest did you ever hunt with larger calibers? Doubles? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Im happy with the 375 or 404, even with the 9.3x62, but when Im attacked by a mad buffalo or Lion, I always wish Id kept my .470 or 505!!  I do believe for sheer stopping power, my .470 and 505 made a difference with body hits although I havn't lived by that creed, and used mostly smaller calibers..I base that opine by how well my .470 and 505 Gibbs IMP. laid buffalo and Hippo to the ground, both of those guns were impressively deadly and I could see the difference in the killing effect..but I didn't relish the weight of packing them around all day, and the recoil was abusive but fairly manageable, but why should I have to deal with that when the lighter guns always got the job done, and today in Africa as opposed to yesteryear, you hunt with considerable backup. I suppose that's why we have such discussions for which I have no real opinion, nor concern for that matter. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Having hunted - on foot - almost a couple hundred buffalo with everything from longbow, .22-250, .275 Rigby, .30/30, .54" roundball to .375, .416, .458, .500NE, .500J, my opinion is that bigger stops and kills, whereas smaller just kills. There is a difference. | |||
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Great statement and this is an fine example of a good AR debate and each to his own. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I don't sell the videos anymore, that had nothing to do with it. I know Andrew well, he's been a long time friend for years. I was half heartedly giving him a hard time - don't be so sensitive! | |||
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I definitely agree with the quality bullet / structure comment Andrew, I think that's a huge part of the equation for sure. | |||
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Andrew, First time I hunted Africa I had a 375 H&H. Shots many animals with it, including two buffalo. Worked great, no problems at all. I was hunting with Roy Vincent, who used to believe bigger is better, and kept making fun of me using what he called "minimum calibers", as I also was using a 270 Ackley for plains game. Then I tried both a 416 Weatherby Magnum, and a 416 Rigby Improved. Again, both worked absolutely great. Then I designed and built the 375/404, and have been using it ever since. Never noticed any difference between any of them whatsoever. I have seen other use rifles up to the 460 Weatherby Magnum, and with marginal shots, it made no difference at all, as the animal required addition ammo to kill it. I have been told by very reliable sources that they have witnessed clients hunting with the 577 T. Rex, and had terrible times with not so well placed shots. I have never used a double, in fact I don't even own one. They have never interested me at all. | |||
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I have film of hunters shooting a bufflo 13 times with a .500 and a .470; another on the same hunt they shot one 9 times..Makes one wonder whos correct and whos not in this kind of a thread..The one thing Im sure of is where you stick that bullet, preferably the first one is the real answer.. Having used both it seems the 404 is better than the .375 H&H, but not by a great deal, and I would hunt with and have hunted with both..I don't like head on shots with a .375 or 9.3x62 without a solid.. The other thing is the monolithic and super premium bullets change the face of the accepted in the past..A .375 with a BarnesX, GS Customs, the new Nosler partition, Woodleighs really change things a lot. I have witnessed Saeed shoot a number of buffalo and I know of a lot more he shot, from camp talk in the evening..I would hunt a mega bull with Saeed as a backup and his dinky 375/404 other than he has a habit of shooting my bulls out from under me, I wake up at night hearing that cackling laugh, it still haunts me to this day!! A PH packing a .500 double suits me just fine, if he can shoot it, I had notorious PH that had one that couldn't, Likewise its a different scenario what a PH packs than what a client carries. Many clients simply shoot better with a 9.3x62, 9.3x74 or a .375, in which case they wisely chose the proper caliber to hunt buffalo with. I recall, over the last 40 some odd years, the clients that flinched all had too much gun, the 458 Lott being the one most used by them it seems, and the 458 Win. to a lesser degree. But many did fine with the big bores..Its critical that that day one on a safari is at the bench and some shooting games. If the PH won't play your already in trouble.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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