I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

interesting how mindsets in some instances remain the same , time and again you hear people wanting more gun trying to replace accuracy with stopping power !

hold tight ,aim a little, close both eyes, pull the trigger (or triggers) as hard as you can - if the gun is big enough the animal will go down- if the animal does not drop instantly its obvious that the gun is not big enough !!

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
interesting how mindsets in some instances remain the same , time and again you hear people wanting more gun trying to replace accuracy with stopping power !

hold tight ,aim a little, close both eyes, pull the trigger (or triggers) as hard as you can - if the gun is big enough the animal will go down- if the animal does not drop instantly its obvious that the gun is not big enough !!

Does this mean the 600 you wanted has been canceled?

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
interesting how mindsets in some instances remain the same , time and again you hear people wanting more gun trying to replace accuracy with stopping power !

hold tight ,aim a little, close both eyes, pull the trigger (or triggers) as hard as you can - if the gun is big enough the animal will go down- if the animal does not drop instantly its obvious that the gun is not big enough !!

Does this mean the 600 you wanted has been canceled?

Some people can actually shoot even if two triggers are involved. Not everybody is from Kansas.

quote:

Does this mean the 600 you wanted has been canceled?

it shoots straight and i love it !

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

quote:

Does this mean the 600 you wanted has been canceled?

it shoots straight and i love it !

Ivan I handled both your doubles in Chris's booth at the last DSC show. That 600NE double was suprisingly light feeling because of the excelent ballance. Gald to hear how it shoots, though I've never shot a Heym that wasn't accurate.
Congratulations

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

I believe the author of those doubtful observations was Ewart Scott Brogan, co-author of From the Cape to Cairo: Africa from South to North.

It's a very interesting account of Mr. Grogan's journey, on foot, with Arthur Sharp, beginning at the Cape and continuing all the way north to Cairo, in 1900. They were the first to do it.

It made them, and particularly Mr. Grogan, celebrities and renowned experts on all things African.

But how much wronger advice on suitable firearms for African dangerous game can a guy give?

.303 caliber Cordite rifles are better than big bores for elephant and are the best all around for dangerous game. Seems as though from that statement that Mr. Grogan puts complete faith in Cordite and small bores.

That is, until he claims that a black powder 12 bore is best of all!

According to Mr. Grogan's flawed logic, the best weapon for turning an elephant charge would be a flare gun!

With such crackpot notions, it's a wonder how Grogan and others like him managed to survive a week in the bush.

Of course, we generally only hear about the ones who did survive, by the grace of God and great good luck. They became the renowned experts and wrote the books.

It takes a lot more reading to learn about the many nimrods who followed the so-called experts' bad advice and never made it back home, but there sure were a lot of them.

I'll stick with Jimmy Sutherland's advice myself.

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead! [/QUOTE]

quote:

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

Saeed, what bullet would you use in the 270?

Of course, Saeed would use the "heavy" bullet of the 270 and use the 130 gr. He is not totally suicidal, you know!

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:

quote:

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

Saeed, what bullet would you use in the 270?

Walterhog bullets of course, what else?!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

Legal, smeegal. Out in the sticks of Tanzania. What's not legal about a .270?

Superior Ammo is currently loading Saeed some 130 gr solids for his .270

Amarican Rifleman interviewed Bell shortly after WWII. He said he would use a 30-06 with solids for elephant if he were to do it today.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

If they do make it legal I hope you don't develop a slight hand tremor as you grow older, because if Walter takes over AR I am out of here.

I concur with MR Robinson - what a load of dung Brogan spouted.

Hunting buffalo with a .270 would be the height of irresponsibility and foolishness. I am surprised at you for even suggesting it Saeed - with all your hunting experience you should know better. You may put crazy thoughts in the minds of others.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion..."

+1 for the Paradox (even though I never shot a lion). So many people are missing out because they just don't know about the wonderful capabilities of the Paradox gun.

We have a perfect example of the "bigger is better" crowd right here!

None other than Walter.

He is a very good shot off the bench, but, somehow he gets himself into a bit of a twist when hunting. Even when using his beloved Blaser 93 rifle.

It all started when we were in South Africa. We saw some black wildebeest across a wide valley, and I jokingly asked him if he wanted to shoot one.

"Yes, yes, let us go get one"
"Jump out and shoot one then! Or if you prefer rest on top of the cap of the truck"

"WHAT? From HERE? They are so far away!"
"You have your super duper German rifle, I cannot see why you don't shoot it from here"

"How many bounces would the bullet need to bounce on the ground before it get to them?"

"Don't be silly, just aim slight high and you will get him."

"No, I am not shooting before you. You shoot one first and show me."

I jumped off the truck, laid down on a small mound, and fired at them. They all jumped about, them one staggerd and fell.

I turend around to Walter "You see, it is not that difficult. Come down and try it"

"No I am not. Your gun has a longer barrel, and a bigger case, and a bigger bullet. I want to get closer"

He was referring to my own rifle, a 30/404, with a 27 inch barrel, shooting a 180 grain bullet at over 3400 fps.

He was using a 7x64, shooting 150 grain bullets, at about 2900 fps.

We got into the truck, and drove across to our wildebeest. We loaded him up, then went after the rest of them for Walter to get his.

Walter duly fired at his wildebeest, we could hear the bullet connect, the wildebeest jumped up and ran a few yards and stopped.

Walter clobbered him again. Again, we could hear the bullet connect, but the wildebeest did not show any desire to expire.

Walter shot him third time, with the same result! The wildebeest decide to put some distance between us and him. He ran across the valley to back to where we were before when I had shot.

Walter unloaded his rifle, looked at me and said "you can go finish him off now. He is too far for me"

I fired a shot at his wildebeest, he ran a few yards, and fell down with blood sprouting up in the air from the wound.

We found that all of Walter's shots were very low. In fact, one just creased the underside of his chest. And the other two were not much better.

Later in the camp, Walter said "I would like a bigger caliber. My gun does not kill as well as yours"

"Walter, it makes no bloody difference if you don't hit him in the right place"

"No, I want a bigger caliber. I want you to chamber one barrel for me for your 375/404. So I can also hunt buffalo with my Blaser"

"When we get back, you can try a 375H&H barrel on your rifle. I have one. This might be a better idea, as the 375/404 would kick too much in your gun"

"OK, we will do that. But I want to start with VERY low load, then work up. AND, AND, I will load my own ammo. I do NOT trust you"

"Bloody charming you are! OK, you can do whatever you wish then"

We got back home, and Walter wanted to work up his loads very slowly.

His rifle has one of those really silly European stocks, which I find extremely hard to shoot. It kicks you so hard in the cheeks.

I loaded 3 rounds of 375 H&H rounds to maximum from the book, and hid them.

Walter turned up in the afternoon. He looked at the loading manual, and picked the slowest load, then deducted 10% of the powder charge. He wanted to start REALLY low.

He loaded his three rounds - using the same bullets and cases as I had loaded earlier.

He is left handed, so he had to move things around on the shooting bench. While he was doing that, I swapped his very low loads for mine.

He fired the first shot.

"OUCH! That really kicks!"
"I told you. That silly stock is not made for shooting. Wait until you get to real hunting loads. You will feel like Mohamed Ali is practicing on you!"

He fired another shot, then gave up. Saying he will try a 300 magnum or something.

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

If they do make it legal I hope you don't develop a slight hand tremor as you grow older, because if Walter takes over AR I am out of here.

I concur with MR Robinson - what a load of dung Brogan spouted.

Hunting buffalo with a .270 would be the height of irresponsibility and foolishness. I am surprised at you for even suggesting it Saeed - with all your hunting experience you should know better. You may put crazy thoughts in the minds of others.

David

David,

You will be surprised of the number of people killing buffalo every year with a 308 Winchester.

I even have one killing them with a 6.5-06, using our Walterhog bullets.

I load their ammo, they are very good shots, and so far no ne has complained about it not killing them.

I know, they pick their shots, and avoid shooting them from angles which we would normally consider fine with a 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I was reading an article by our own Cal Pappas in the African Hunter magazine about the history of the 4-bore.

Here is what Edward S Grogan had to say:

"...both Sharp and I did all our shooting with the .303 and killed most things from elephants to plover. After nearly loosing a rhinoceros and quite loosing three good elephants with the 4-bore, I gave it up in disgust, and took to the .303 even for heavy game..."

He goes on to say "...for my own part I should never take more than a double .303 and a double 12-bore paradox, and if much elephant hunting were to be done, I should add a magazine .303...A 12-bore is quite strong enough to stop a lion, and sufficient to turn an elephant or rhinoceros. It is the flash and smoke that does this and not the weight of metal. Hence the defensive weapons mus always burn black powder..."

Saeed,

Does this mean that you will be trading your 375/404 for a 303?

465H&H

If they make a 270 legal for buffalo I would use that instead!

If they do make it legal I hope you don't develop a slight hand tremor as you grow older, because if Walter takes over AR I am out of here.

I concur with MR Robinson - what a load of dung Brogan spouted.

Hunting buffalo with a .270 would be the height of irresponsibility and foolishness. I am surprised at you for even suggesting it Saeed - with all your hunting experience you should know better. You may put crazy thoughts in the minds of others.

David

David,

You will be surprised of the number of people killing buffalo every year with a 308 Winchester.

I even have one killing them with a 6.5-06, using our Walterhog bullets.

I load their ammo, they are very good shots, and so far no ne has complained about it not killing them.

I know, they pick their shots, and avoid shooting them from angles which we would normally consider fine with a 375.

Saeed,

I have no doubt that it can be done and has been many times, with calibers as light as a 270. I just don't think it's smart. Who wants to have that little popgun in their hands when things do go south? And they inevitably will one day.

Anyway, each to his own, I am certainly no big game or big gun expert.

David,

My whole argument is to make sure of your first shot.

I have seen things go south with people using a 460 Weatherby.

I have a friend who was hunting with his wife.

He had a 470 and she had a 7x57.
He shot a buffalo, and it ran off. They followed it, and found. He shot it twice, it remained standing.

His wife shot it in the neck with her 7x57 and dropped it.

I have seen others hunt, and some of them will wound any buffalo, regardless of what caliber they use. I really have no idea why they get shaky knees at the sight of a buffalo.

So we cannot really blame the caliber.

It is the man behind it.

Saeed, of course I agree that the first shot needs to be well-placed, regardless of caliber. I am simply debating from a stopping perspective. Sure, the lady knocked the buff down with a 7x57, she probably spined it. But if it was me in that situation, I would rather have the .460 than the 7x57, for when the buffalo came. Yeah, even if it was a W eatherby!

David,

Years ago when I started hunting with Roy Vincent, he used to complain about my "minimum calibers"

By that he meant the 270 Ackley I used and the 375/404.

After having hunted with him for so many years, he started saying "That 375/404 of yours is deadly on buffalo. It really works very well."

I really think the majority of hunters are better off using a 375 for most of their hunts rather than taking a bigger bore rifle.

I know, we do have some people who can handle the bigger bores, and can shoot them very well.

But, the majority cannot.

And a well placed 308 bullet is infinitely better than a marginal shot from a 460 Weatherby.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
David,


I really think the majority of hunters are better off using a 375 for most of their hunts rather than taking a bigger bore rifle.



And a well placed 308 bullet is infinitely better than a marginal shot from a 460 Weatherby.

Saeed, these two statements I agree with 100%

I don't think the African hunters of yesteryear have that much to offer current hunters by way of caliber recommendations. Taylors recommendations seemed largely to be based on the bullets available for individual rifles, not blanket preferences for calibers.

Mikelravy,

that is still valid today.

Rich

quote:

time and again you hear people wanting more gun trying to replace accuracy with stopping power !

Says the man who just picked up his Heym 600 NE double?????

I think ones intentions & circumstances have a lot of influence on caliber choice (and shot placement for that matter) regardless of the game hunted…

i.e. I’ve killed deer with a 22 hornet but would not take a hornet on a trophy whitetail hunt where I’d want to be able to take any shot with reasonable presentation…

I guess all is moot once your using the legal minimum 375 etc…except for just plain old wretched excess…

Accurate shooting far outweighs , just put a bullet in him.. I also believe in having enough gun!!!

Mike

ISS
Yep It is the bullet that counts, and where you put it Caliber is third in importance IMHO

I shall surmise...big is good , bigger is better....what did you tell your PH that you would xettle for?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
With such crackpot notions, it's a wonder how Grogan and others like him managed to survive a week in the bush.

Perhaps you're a bit harsh on Grogan.

Taking a brief look at his book (google offers a copy), it appears he started his adventure in 1897 or maybe 1896. I recall (incorrectly?) this was before the big bore cordite rounds such as the .450 and .450/400 NE were available for hunting in Africa. The .303's penetration by itself might at his time have offered some advantage, at least for the fellow wanting to lug something less than an 8 bore.

addendum: In his chapter 27 he discusses the weapons he used. He had a double B.P. 4 bore with him, and he found it unreliable on elephant; "in disgust" he turned to his double .303 and found it was far more likely to inflict a lethal wound on anything. For turning charges, he felt a 12 ga rifle was adequate because, interestingly, he felt the flash and smoke of BP was what turned an elephant or rhino charge. Not having tried to shoot anything with B.P., I'm in no position to debate that point, but it is surprising. He found the .303 inadequate for frontal shots on elephant, but adequate for a brain shot from aside. He noted dumping several magazines of .303 into an elephant to little effect (after his 10 bore failed to down it), so he didn't propose body shots with it. As of his date of writing (1900), he was aware of the new big bore NE's and suspected they would be the tool for elephant. Again, he felt his only chance of turning an elephant charge was a great flash of BP; none of his rifles could deliver a suitable projectile to do so. He had less experience with buffalo, the great herds having been reduced by rinderpest; he mentions the .303 solid as being inadequate. The lion could be stopped dead with a 12 ga rifle, but he also felt a double shooting .303 softs or a double .500 BPE would do for hunting--but make the first shot count.

On the whole, he seems to appreciate the .303's limitations. I have to wonder if the big BP projectiles he used were simply too soft. Regardless, he recognized the new big bore NE rounds to be the way to go in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by asdf:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
With such crackpot notions, it's a wonder how Grogan and others like him managed to survive a week in the bush.

Perhaps you're a bit harsh on Grogan.

Taking a brief look at his book (google offers a copy), it appears he started his adventure in 1897 or maybe 1896. I recall (incorrectly?) this was before the big bore cordite rounds such as the .450 and .450/400 NE were available for hunting in Africa. The .303's penetration by itself might at his time have offered some advantage, at least for the fellow wanting to lug something less than an 8 bore.

addendum: In his chapter 27 he discusses the weapons he used. He had a double B.P. 4 bore with him, and he found it unreliable on elephant; "in disgust" he turned to his double .303 and found it was far more likely to inflict a lethal wound on anything. For turning charges, he felt a 12 ga rifle was adequate because, interestingly, he felt the flash and smoke of BP was what turned an elephant or rhino charge. Not having tried to shoot anything with B.P., I'm in no position to debate that point, but it is surprising. He found the .303 inadequate for frontal shots on elephant, but adequate for a brain shot from aside. He noted dumping several magazines of .303 into an elephant to little effect (after his 10 bore failed to down it), so he didn't propose body shots with it. As of his date of writing (1900), he was aware of the new big bore NE's and suspected they would be the tool for elephant. Again, he felt his only chance of turning an elephant charge was a great flash of BP; none of his rifles could deliver a suitable projectile to do so. He had less experience with buffalo, the great herds having been reduced by rinderpest; he mentions the .303 solid as being inadequate. The lion could be stopped dead with a 12 ga rifle, but he also felt a double shooting .303 softs or a double .500 BPE would do for hunting--but make the first shot count.

On the whole, he seems to appreciate the .303's limitations. I have to wonder if the big BP projectiles he used were simply too soft. Regardless, he recognized the new big bore NE rounds to be the way to go in the future.

Thanks for that asdf, it's all believable, I swallow some of my words - maybe he wasn't such a dung spouter after all! Anyway, any man who achieved what he did has my respect.

David

With the greatest respect to the instigator of this thread,this is the usual load of nonsense put out by those who have never seen the effect of a modern 500 or the like (when properly used)on buf or elephant.That black powder bore rifles were unsatisfactory for elephant was well illustrated by the enthusiasm that the 450 and above class of Nitro Express rifles were greated with in the late 19th century market place.

quote:

Originally posted by wombat:
With the greatest respect to the instigator of this thread,this is the usual load of nonsense put out by those who have never seen the effect of a modern 500 or the like (when properly used)on buf or elephant.That black powder bore rifles were unsatisfactory for elephant was well illustrated by the enthusiasm that the 450 and above class of Nitro Express rifles were greated with in the late 19th century market place.

Yep.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by wombat:
With the greatest respect to the instigator of this thread,this is the usual load of nonsense put out by those who have never seen the effect of a modern 500 or the like (when properly used)on buf or elephant.That black powder bore rifles were unsatisfactory for elephant was well illustrated by the enthusiasm that the 450 and above class of Nitro Express rifles were greated with in the late 19th century market place.

Yep.

You two have lost all your common sense in your old age!

All I know is that there is only level being dead.

And I have witnessed hundreds of game animals like elephants and buffalo drop as if poleaxed when hit in the right place with a 375.

I wonder how much deader they would have been have they been hit with a 500

quote:

You two have lost all your common sense in your old age! rotflmo

Entirely possible!

You know, this is the same argument I tell people who ask me why I hunt with wildcats instead of factory calibers.

I tell them my wildcat kills infinetly better, shoots more accurate, at any distance than any factory rifle ever made!

quote:

Originally posted by wombat:
That black powder bore rifles were unsatisfactory for elephant was well illustrated by the enthusiasm that the 450 and above class of Nitro Express rifles were greeted

Grogan didn't have a big NE; they were under design. Of the rifles he tried, he felt the .303 the best, but he noted there was room for improvement.

His comments must be taken in context. His experience was in the few years between the introduction of the sporting .303 and of the big NEs.

A few pages on the web mention he stayed in Africa. Does anyone know what rifles he used later? He wrote he enjoyed hunting in Africa, and it appears he was open to experimentation. I'll bet he ended up using something more than a .303, just as Bell, Sutherland, etc. did.