I'm sure that Grogan was doing the best he knew how to do with what he had available.

But the same was true of the captain of the Titanic.

I may have been a bit harsh, though. Grogan's choice of a .303 was certainly a sound one at the time he made it.

But some of his other decisions and actions, and his stated preference for a "flash bang" effect, rather than a well-placed bullet, to stop a charging animal, have always mystified me, and caused me to doubt his judgment.

Many other hunters before and after him were able to use 4 bore and 10 bore BP rifles to great effect on elephant and other heavy game.

It's hard to say what Grogan was doing wrong. Low powered loads (no excuse for that, but possible)? Pure lead or alloyed but not hard-enough bullets (which were well known at the time to be inadequate, so no excuse for that, either)?

With the amount of lead he fired at some of the game he hunted, one must also wonder if he had the slightest idea of where the vital zones were on his targets!

quote:

Many other hunters before and after him were able to use 4 bore and 10 bore BP rifles to great effect on elephant and other heavy game.

That's my impression as well. Seyfried wrote recently some of the last big BPE's used FMJ bullets. Those surely could have done the job. I need to read more about the big BPE's as used in Africa--any book suggestions?

Undoubtedly, Grogan made mistakes. I imagine his flash and bang theory was a wild extrapolation based on one or two charges where he got lucky.

He places the .303 as a decent killer but not a good stopper, and I think most modern hunters can accept that.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom In Tennessee:
Superior Ammo is currently loading Saeed some 130 gr solids for his .270

Baloney!!!
And I do not even see the humor in this joke!!!
You got a strange sense of humor there, Tom!!!
Saeed makes his own bullets (Walterhogs) and rolls his own smokes!!!

quote:

Originally posted by nopride2:
Amarican Rifleman interviewed Bell shortly after WWII. He said he would use a 30-06 with solids for elephant if he were to do it today.

Dave

Whoa!!! Bell finally saw the light and was wanting to use something bigger than his 7x57 mm for elephant, eh?
Probably wanted an M1 Garand for that 30-06 too, eh?

Saeed floats like a butterfly and stings Walter like a bee!!!

Saeed strikes again:

He is left handed, so he had to move things around on the shooting bench. While he was doing that, I swapped his very low loads for mine.

He fired the first shot.

"OUCH! That really kicks!"
"I told you. That silly stock is not made for shooting. Wait until you get to real hunting loads. You will feel like Mohamed Ali is practicing on you!"

He fired another shot, then gave up. Saying he will try a 300 magnum or something.

asdf: (quote)

"That's my impression as well. Seyfried wrote recently some of the last big BPE's used FMJ bullets. Those surely could have done the job. I need to read more about the big BPE's as used in Africa--any book suggestions?" (end quote)


Interesting. I gotta go check the files ... I am still looking for the missing link in the Nitro Express family tree:

The 400 Nitro For Black Powder Express 3-Inch is thought to have been a .395 caliber rifle, with 255-grain soft lead bullet.
It was never fully realized as a Nitro Express.
Sure Purdey did a similar light load with cordite, but used a .405-caliber bullet.
And then the trade got opened up to a 450/400 NE using the even larger .410-caliber and such.

But the 400 NE never fully evolved from full BP loadings (BPE) to full Cordite loadings (NE), like happened with the 450 BP and 500 BP cartridges, which became the 450 NE and 500 NE, etc.

A good solid bullet of about 330 to 400 grains weight in .395 caliber,
with a full load of Cordite,
in a 3-inch rimmed case,
should have been famous.

Alas, it was the 450 NE of 1898 that wowed the world ...
but we need to look backward before that to the 500's and 450's in the BPE guise to see when they got some FMJ's, and what the result was:

I bet it was just this: "Wow! Now our bullets can handle more velocity and more weight! The time for the full Nitro Express has arrived."

BPE loads with FMJs must not have lasted too long, eh?

Now where is that history of FMJ bullets in BP cartridges?

RIP, this is Seyfried's comment which piqued my interest:

quote:

The weight and stature of the rifle made me wonder, because it was much heavier than any normal .500 BPE rifle I had seen. Later in very obscure places I began to discover the reality of it. Yes, it was a .500 x 3" BPE, but Daniel Fraser regularly had his own loading ideas. In the case of these .500s he used the standard case and a slightly reduced charge of black powder, but with the crowning touch of 570 grain nickel jacketed bullets! So instead of being one of the bruise-them-to-death hollow point express rifles, this was a real elephant killer, a black powder rifle designed around the same bullets later used in the cordite rifles.

(Emphasis per the original, in the Autumn 2009 Double Gun Journal.)