The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: Leave high velocity cartridges at home?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
500grains wrote: Quote: In my case, ammo on the belt gets a LOT of protection from the sun due to my hangover!  | ||
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| one of us |
Good one POW! 500, I agree, but my point is, with very little fore-thought you can keep ammo out of the direct sun and even swap it out of your rifle time to time. I carried & shot that POS M16 in some mighty hot places in the world and was always able to keep it working,just keep the ammo out of the direct sun. | |||
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| One of Us |
One person wrote: Quote: Comment? | |||
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One of Us |
"All nitro powders are affected by temperature . . ." Not anymore, unless you're still using cordite or an older powder in your loads. Many modern powders are NOT (or are minimally) temperature sensitive. This has been proven empirically. With such powders, any SAAMI or CIP permissible pressure in any cartridge, including the super magnums, ought to be fine anywhere, assuming a properly chambered and headspaced rifle. And high velocity is gravity's enemy and therefore the shooter's friend. | |||
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| one of us |
Since all of my practice and load-testing has been done in South Florida (usually during the 11-month summer), anything that's safe at my range will surely be safe anywhere that I can withstand hunting without passing-out. We also tend to generalize Africa as being hot, though I hunted RSA in August and was freezing! For reliability's sake,I wouldn't push the pressure envelope with hunting loads anyway so I don't think that this is is an issue (even if I did think that temp had an effect on pressure). | |||
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| one of us |
500grains, First, WHO is the quote from? Second, I don't believe most of what I read and only about 1/3 of what I see...my 300WSM works just fine in Africa... | |||
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One of Us |
"Bullshit' about covers it.jorge | |||
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| one of us |
Sounds like a Capstickism. Chuck | |||
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| one of us |
I think a lot of this "stuff" about high pressures is a hold over from the old, colonial African safari days. People like John Taylor writing about it. Cordite and many of the early nitrocellulose powders were sensitive to high temperatures which could lead to high pressures. The example of "tropical loadings" for some of the old Nitro Express rounds is a good example; i.e. a lighter cordite powder charge for use in the tropics. But, with modern powders, I think a lot of this concern no longer applies; especially with factory loaded ammunition. It's not exactly cool down here on the Texas Gulf Coast during the summer and I've never experienced a problem. A lot of the old books, written by Englishman like Taylor, were writing about the heat they encountered in Africa. Well, Africa is not the only place that gets hot! Just my two cents.... -Bob F. | |||
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| one of us |
Not everyone lives in the high temperature zones in the United States or develops their loads during the warmest part of the year. So, probably still worth noting that unless loads were developed at the high temperature extreme ... might not be smartest move to take max loads to Africa. A little safety factor on the pressure never hurts as it might prevent a nasty surprise. The intended target isn't like to feel the difference of a 100 fps or so. | |||
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| one of us |
Mike, True. Good advice. I agree. -Bob F. | |||
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| Moderator |
Regardless of what time of the year I work up loads, I retest them during the summer months. With that, one can't be too careful. A load which seems acceptable for a few firings can give you trouble in a given hunting situation. Mostly talking DG here. A short while back, a member conveyed to us an incident where he wound up firing a good number of shots in a short time frame, with a bit of a delay in the sequence, towards the end. He experienced a badly stuck bolt from what otherwise had been deemed an acceptable loading. I think it may have been Forest Burch (?) Anyway, the firing of 4 or 5 shots, followed by the chambering of the next cartridge, then followed by a minute or so delay in firing, resulted in heated casing and a stuck bolt at the next shot. A tough scenario to plan for, to be sure, but such might happen to anyone under the unusual circumstances a hunt might bring. As Mstarling suggests, it can't hurt to run a bit cooler. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: I have personally experienced blown primers with Winchester 55 grain .223 factory loads in Utah's hot summer sun. All it takes is for the sun to beat down on both the rifle and the ammo until both are too hot to touch. Then the primers start popping out with almost every round fired. Although it is disconcerting on the firing line, it would be a lot more frightening in the bush. That being said, most foreign hunters going to Africa schedule their trip during Africa's cooler months. But for those who brave the hottest season, a bit of judicious downloading may be in order. | |||
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| one of us |
Over zealous pumps on the powder measure cause most problems today... A grain or two less than max makes no difference on the game, so why do people insist on working up Max loads...I work up max loads in my guns, then cut them two grains for hunting, and I have never had a single failure....MY 416 will handle 83 grs. of RL-15 without a problem but my hunting loads are 78 grs. for 2400 FPS... I will state that in many cases full blown max loads are where the best accuracy is at, contrairy to what we are lead to believe about accuracy being below max. This is especially true with bulk powders like H4831 etc. That last few grains when working beyound book max will boost velocity dramatically and when that happens your probably a little warm on those loads.. When I refer to max I mean real max, not book max which because of legal problems is usually no where near true max for a certain rifle...I work up my own max loads for MY rifle and then cut back two grains or so... By doing this It is not necessary to have summer loads and winter loads..I have one load that will work anywhere..... Caliber has nothing to do with it...Hi vel calibers are fine in Africa or the USA...I don't know who started this BS about Africa having pressure problems that go beyond anything in the USA...The obviously have not been to Texas or Arizona.... I like the 300's in Africa, they are the best of the plainsgame rifles and are better killers than the lesser guns...They work in the bushveld and the Mountains..Not so the reverse, at least not as well... It is an amazment to me that so many insist on taking a 375 or 416 on a plainsgame hunt where they do not intend on shooting any of the big five...Must be part of the game we play...and the 375 and 416 will certainly work anywhere on anything... African antelope are not any tougher than our deer and elk, that's another bit of misinformation...Elk and Moose are as tough to kill and Eland, Zebra and Wildebeest IMO and the 300s work fine on them, so does the 30-06... | |||
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one of us |
I think that quote is from Tayler's book, and was true at the time of his hunting in Africa! It isn't true today, as far as being dangerous, it may however cause a double to not regulate too well, but is not a threat to life and limb. I think anything that works in Arizona, or West Texas will certainly work like a champ in Africa, at least it always has for me! There are some limits to the usefullness of extreme high velocity, in Africa, but it has nothing to do with pressures, I simply think high velocity is not needed for most hunting in Africa. The only place a higher velocity is needed is for extremely long range shooting, and the average shot, in most of the hunting I have done in Africa, is less than 200 yds, and more often les than 100 yds. anything over 2500 to 2600 fps is wasted, for the most part in African hunting fields, IMO! | |||
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one of us |
When I first saw this thread I thought it would address the problems of bullet performance in high velocity cartridges. Sometimes the combination of old softie bullets in big magnums leads to trouble. This would be a reason to leave the big ones at home, but powder and pressure shouldn't be an issue. For more on performance, there's an article on the Alaska forum regarding bear defense options: http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=644817&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1 My beloved 300WinMag fared poorly, and I blame it on the soft, old bullet they used in testing. 2nd best score: 460Wby. Go check it out to see which cartridge scored highest. | |||
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| One of Us |
Modern powders may not be as suceptable to temperature variation as the old powders but they still are. I contacted Hornady re their heavy Magnum loads in .458 Win noting heavy pressure. The official answer. At temperatures above 110 you must expect pressures to exceed industry limmits. Also, shelf life under those conditions is arround six months. Fine for the American who is comming hunting in July, but damm unsafe for the PH who he leaves his left over ammo with and is still carrying it come October, or worse still by May the next year. Have a box of the stuff to test. Now it gives 2203fps ave out of an old Bruno (CZ550 predessesor). We'll see in october and next year. what the forum for details | |||
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| one of us |
Ganyana, The 458 was born a problem and the pressure comes as much from compaction as it does from the powder used...I think the enhanced stuff from Hornady and Federal for the .458 is too hot in the first place and probably should not be used in the heat.... Overloading is the bottom line, if a cartridge is not overloaded then it will never give one pressure problems in hot weather.... | |||
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| Moderator |
Considering the advances made in propellants since the introduction of the .458, I don't think you need to have over-compressed loads to achieve useful velocities. Once my .458 is completed, I'll have an opportunity to test that premise. George | |||
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| One of Us |
Ray you are right about overloading. The problem is that the standard load for some cartridges is already overloaded. Take for example the weatherby owner who posted that factory loads stretched the primer pockets so much that he could not use the brass again. If a guy goes to the tropics with that box of ammo he may get a surprise. | |||
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| <allen day> |
No matter what sort of tricks these manufacturers try to pull off to get more performance out of the .458 Win. Mag., it would appear that the real culprit--limited case capacity with 500 gr. bullets--is an insurmountable problem. 500 grs., I've owned two Weatherby Mark Vs in .300 WBY. that showed bright ejector marks in 65-70 degree weather with 180 gr. Weatherby factory ammo. I've see other Weatherby rifles in .270 WBY. that demonstrated the same signs of high pressure. If I was planning to take a Weatherby magnum to Africa and use Weatherby factory ammo, I'd be inclined to test very thoroughly in hot weather first. Handloads might be a good idea, period, in this case. Oddly, I purchased a batch of factory Remington .375 H&H ammo loaded with 300 gr. Swift A-Frames that gives a sticky bolt lift in my rifle. This particular gun has never demonstrated high-pressure signs with any other load, so I'm inclinded to think I came up against a very hot batch. As far as I'm concerned, it pays to test in hot weather beforehand, no matter what you're shooting. Assumptions don't pay..... AD | ||
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| one of us |
I seldom agree with you 500 grns, but have never thought you dumb.... But why are you leaving your cartridges out in the sun until they are to hot to touch? | |||
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one of us |
Yeah, like the hot rod car guys say, there is no replacement for displacement. For example, you can't load up a 458 WM to original specs without a Lott case! | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: Because they do not provide beach umbrellas for high power competition, and the cartridges get hot right through the magazines. Cartridges in an ammo carrier on a belt get a little bit of protection from the sun, but not enough. | |||
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| one of us |
Ray: I agree with you on all counts here. It is a personal choice and requires some practice to load maximum charges and then know how much to back off that edge. I think in some rifles, and I would say in medium and large bore Weatherbys in particular, loading maximum charges takes advantage of the large bullet being pushed out the barrel...of course, a lot of the personal choice comes into play when it comes to how fast you personally think the bullets needs to go, and how much noise and recoil you can tolerate. Velocity per se may not be absolutely required, but it sure is fun. 500: You are referencing me when you reference the expanded primer seats in Weatherbys. I was talking about hot factory loads. The expanded primer seats would not make one bit of difference to me if I did not reload my brass. Weatherby may rightfully want to sacrafice the brass of each cartridge so that the ballistics of each projectile perform to their standards. I think they meet that standard and they can do so without sacraficing all their brass (I can reload most of the brass). Me being a cheap-skate, and the fact that a store bought box of .378s w/non-premiun bullets start at around $90, I reload. I also have to say that expanded primer seats had nothing to do with ambient temperature (or temperature in a black box). I bought these bullets here in Anchorage and shot some of them at the range here in Feburary before going to South Africa. Anchorage in Feburary is not Barrow-cold, but it is decidedly below 29 degrees. In South Africa, it is still the hot season. Within a 10 day period, the hot factory loads acted the same in Anchorage and the Eastern Cape. I think the only time I've had problems with any bullet (.270, .338, .378) is when I caused the problem by over charging. But that was my fault and I can anticipate those problems using basic scientific methods. Allen: I think that Swift A-Frames are tough on many fronts: I think they resist going down the barrel more than many bullets and, according to their reloading manual, they have lower velocities than other bullets of the same or similar weight. They are blunt-nosed, which may contribute to their resistance to moving through the air at the same velocity as other bullets of the same weight behind the same type and amount of gun powder. Anyway, on an intuitive level, I think SAF cause or are associated with increased pressure, which might be detected on brass. | |||
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| One of Us |
I posted pressure problems with Weatherby factory ammo here on more than one occassion so I'll not repeat it here. Suffice to say, what Allen an others say, to test ammo in hot weather prior to your hunt is prudent to say the least. In Weatherby's defense, I've never experienced the pressure problems with factory Hornady or Nosler ammo, only with Xs. jorge | |||
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| one of us |
I was never given an umbrella either  But as any SF man here will tell you, keep your ammo on the shady side of your body and change out mags often. That should work in almost any situation with in reason. Not ment as a dig, just common sense.I see fellows with ammo sitting on dashboards in the full sun all the time, you just have to shake your head and press on. | |||
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| One of Us |
Quote: The point that I think this post misses is that hot rifles and/or ammo increases pressure and can lead to firearms failure. I suppose that a guy on safari can carry an umbrella to keep his ammo shaded, but that will not be me. | |||
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| one of us |
D Hunter, Apparantly you have never loaded for a 404 Jefferys to any extent, and are shooting from the hip with you post, and your assumption shows your unfamiliarity with the 404... That particular load is 95 grs. of IMR-4831 with any 400 gr. bullet in my old 27 inch barreled 404, and the actual chronographed velocity was 2653 FPS, and in my new 26 inch gun I get 2608 FPS... That load, for your information, was throughly tested by North Fork Industries and in their 24 inch test barrel and they got something over 2500 FPS, and pressures were well within the safty margin...IMR-4831 is the powder to squeeze out the best of the 404, but anything over 2400 is simply not needed for shooting Buffalo etc. The 404 is a damn big case and in a modern bolt action it will cook with a 416 Rigby and I can get an easy 2700 from the Rigby and I know some folks that get quite a bit more than that out of the Rigby... | |||
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