Gentlemen ,what type of gun you prefer for searching for an injured cat on tall grass .If you choose a shotgun what type pump .semiauto or double ,What type of rifle would you choose .
We are speaking about lions and leopards ,i know that they are a different play .
Please make your choice .

light weight 9.3 double with swift Aframe

cz375hyh open sigthed with any soft point of 300 grains .

RPG

Double rifle in 500/416 with a 4" S&W 44 mag on my hip as a backup.

465H&H

Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

Exactly!

Juanpozzi


LION

Double rifle, I use a 577NE with softs and a scoped 338WM/375/416. This is incase of a long shot.
Have used 416 and 450 Dakota but prefer a double.

LEOPARD

Shotgun, if its tall grass or thick bush.
Benelli black eagle 12 gauge 3" 00 Buck nickel plated and slugs.

Shotgun for three reasons -
1)It can be wielded with one hand (if need arises) while holding a light/crawling/or another compromised position.
2)Distances are likely to be extremely close.
3)Its what I have and is the most suitable out of my battery that I carry while guiding.

A shotgun (with buckshot) is seriously range limited. The cat has to be literally at the end of the muzzle to stop it decisively. Even then its not always a sure thing..

If I could a get a choked short barrel and mount an aimpoint Micra h1 reddot or similar. Sight it for slugs and be done with it.

If i had a choice and the luxury, Ideally for leopard I'd use a double .450/400NE.

One double that would do it ALL would be a 500NE!! Best back-up all rounder.

Leon

Andrew, Mentioned an RPG;-) Reminds me a of a humours and sad story story of a wounded lion in the Okavango delta in Botswana. Wounded Lion went into a Island, the PH set fire to the Island not wishing to go in there..
Anyway nothing came out so they went in there to find a the burnt Lion!
A well known PH was asked by an apprentice what he uses. He said fully loaded mossberg (9) cartridges. Places the muzzle in his mouth when the Leopard charges pull the trigger!LOL

quote:

Originally posted by juanpozzi:
Gentlemen ,what type of gun you prefer for searching for an injured cat on tall grass .If you choose a shotgun what type pump .semiauto or double ,What type of rifle would you choose .
We are speaking about lions and leopards ,i know that they are a different play .
Please make your choice .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Are you asking what a Client Hunter should use? Or what a Professional Hunter uses???

For Client: (Providing he is allowed to join the follow up team), then he should safely carry his scoped rifle that he used on the initial shot. Once and a while a wounded cat is spotted at a bit of distance, and the scoped rifle can sometimes come in handy.

But If the client muffed the original shot with his scoped rifle, while comfortably sitting in a blind with a solid rifle rest.....will he be of much use on a charging leopard (with shotgun or rifle)??? Its doubtful. I normally prefer he stay in the car or blind.

Most PHs will agree: If a lion goes into very long grass with a hole in it, then always safer & smarter to fetch the hunting car. From the car, one can better see over the grass to find the (hopefully dead) lion.

Regards PH: for lion: my .470 double, loaded with Federal Soft points. For leopard: my Chas Daly 12 gauge side x side. 3" Magnum with copper plated 0 or 00 Buck.

Of course, "to each, his own". Those are what I choose to have in my hands!

It would take an idiot with a death wish to go after a lion with a shotgun.

I think the shotgun is often maligned when it comes to leopards. I think this must come from the old days when buckshot was nothing more than a lead ball that flattened out on impact. QUALITY buckshot these days is much improved and does not have the same tendency to flatten. At up close and personal range, it works. I have been there done that. It works.

A few years ago, I tested the new plated buckshot on wild hogs we have around here. If my memory serves me correctly up to about 18 yards, it was devastating even shooting through the shield of a big boar. The shield of far tougher than any leopard.

Last year, I shot a boar over 300 pounds at 33 yards with quality buckshot. One shot and he was finished.

My choice for leopard would be a shotgun IF I had quality buckshot.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

Exactly!

……………………….

I agree with the above 100%! A firearm that you know and can shoot instinctively is the one you should use as long as the chambering is adequate for the target. Leopard and lion are two very different targets, and once wounded what ever you use better be spot on, and effective. For the Leopard I would rather have a well fitting double rifle chambered for at least 9.3X74R, and preferably a 375Flanged with a good soft point controlled expansion bullet of around 300 grs.

For the lion my choice would be a double rifle as well, but chambered for a 450/400NE or larger . A bolt rifle’s magazine is no help because with either charging from close you will be lucky to get off one shot much less two, and with a double at the same distance you are far more likely to get off two shots. At close distance a shotgun’s buckshot pattern will be not much wider than a slug, and the slug will be a better choice IMO!
.......................................................................

Being one who went into tall grass to look for my leopard, I was happy to have a short barreled 12ga Model 1100 with as many OO buckshot shells as it could hold in my hands. Thankfully, he was found dead only 10 yards in. If I had to do it again, I 'd want the same.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It would take an idiot with a death wish to go after a lion with a shotgun.

I think the shotgun is often maligned when it comes to leopards. I think this must come from the old days when buckshot was nothing more than a lead ball that flattened out on impact. QUALITY buckshot these days is much improved and does not have the same tendency to flatten. At up close and personal range, it works. I have been there done that. It works.

A few years ago, I tested the new plated buckshot on wild hogs we have around here. If my memory serves me correctly up to about 18 yards, it was devastating even shooting through the shield of a big boar. The shield of far tougher than any leopard.

Last year, I shot a board over 30 pounds at 33 yards with quality buckshot. One shot and he was finished.

My choice for leopard would be a shotgun IF I had quality buckshot.

I remember seeing or reading about Michel Mantheakis using a shotgun to follow a wounded lion but I can´t recall what it was loaded with.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
It would take an idiot with a death wish to go after a lion with a shotgun.

I think the shotgun is often maligned when it comes to leopards. I think this must come from the old days when buckshot was nothing more than a lead ball that flattened out on impact. QUALITY buckshot these days is much improved and does not have the same tendency to flatten. At up close and personal range, it works. I have been there done that. It works.

A few years ago, I tested the new plated buckshot on wild hogs we have around here. If my memory serves me correctly up to about 18 yards, it was devastating even shooting through the shield of a big boar. The shield of far tougher than any leopard.

Last year, I shot a board over 30 pounds at 33 yards with quality buckshot. One shot and he was finished.

My choice for leopard would be a shotgun IF I had quality buckshot.

Exactly correct on all accounts

If one would use a shotgun what is the recommended (plated) ammunition brand?

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
If one would use a shotgun what is the recommended (plated) ammunition brand?

I have used Winchester Supreme with good results. 3.5 inch 00 buck. I have also used the Federal with good results.

The plated shot is a must.

Thank you!

Leopard:

Most follow ups on a wounded Leopard occur in either fading light or by the time everyone has got their asses into gear, i.e. in total darkness and a charging Leopard in the beam of a flashlight is no easy target for a rifle.

A daylight follow up is probably worse than one taken up at night as the flashlight beam is more in your favor than his and the moment you sight and lock eyes, he is already within spitting distance. The 12 gauge would be more effective at 7-10 yards.

In either of the above scenarios a standard 12 gauge semi auto would be more than sufficient and efficient. The ideal Leopard tamer would be the Benelli M4 shooting 3" shells loaded with wired plated or copper buckshot which produces devastating results. You may have to drop one pellet to account up for the wire.

Lion:
The M4 could also work for Leo but I would rather bank on my 500NE whether it be in daylight or pitch darkness.
Leo's reactions to charge are not as instinctive or as spontaneous as our spotted friend.

Gentlemen ,our mutual friend ganyana ,with considerable experience on leopards ,HATES BUCKSHOT ,read SHOTGUN ON CATS on AFRICAN HUNTER.
Being an avid shotgunner i always follow my cats -pumas-with shotgun .Helping a South African PH with a leopard injured i asked for a shotgun .I have many many semiauto shotguns and from time to time they have a stoppage .So i prefer a pum like my MOSSBER590 SP or My 870 .With a flasligth in the front .Richard Harland is an avid wing shooter too and he prefers the shotgun on leopards .Wally Johnson used shotgun even in lions and i HAVE to use slugs in a buffalo harafballi charge with good results .

Shotgun ,double ,semiauto or pump because im not so fast with rifle .

I edited my post above. it was supposed to say a boar over 300 pounds.

I strongly recomed a DVD by Rob Austin called MAULED!

It is about an injured leopard hunt and what happen afterwords using a shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by cazador2:
I strongly recomed a DVD by Rob Austin called MAULED!

It is about an injured leopard hunt and what happen afterwords using a shotgun.

Do you have a link to where this DVD is available? I ran a Google search for it and came up empty! I would love to have a copy of that DVD.

.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

Follow this chaps advice. The PH's I have known who have been scratched by Leopard had used a shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

Follow this chaps advice. The PH's I have known who have been scratched by Leopard had used a shotgun.

+1

I don't care what others want to use but I was always very happy indeed with my old .500 bolter and FWIW, every time I've seen shotguns used, they've failed and the pellets are usually found under the skin and embedded in but not penetrated through the skull.

quote:

Rob Austin called MAULED!

Didnt find the video .I would like to see it too .We have been discussing this with ganyana and he agrees totally with shakari .
Larry shores like me loves shotguns ,i have killed more than 20 pumas with shotguns so i believe if you really shoot your shotgun al close distance it will work ,i can shoot my pumps 8 shot in seconds thanks to years of daily training so Richard Halrland or Larry ,but most of the PHs have very few shotgun experience.....so they must go to the rifle .

The time I went in after shooting my lion we thought it was dead, and I followed in with the rifle I shot it with - .375 H&H bolt gun.

My leopard was in the tree at the shot, so no follow up there.

I probably shoot best with a shotgun, and personally I would rather not go in after a cat with a shotgun, as I have seen too many strange things happen with buckshot, even the high end plated loads.

For me, my best bet would be the .416 Rigby bolt gun with the scope down to 1X and the illumination all the way up and shoot it like a red dot. All I would get is one shot anyhow if it was coming at me. In any case, as a client, while I believe its my job to help clean up any mess I helped create, ultimately its the PH's decision.

I remember hearing Paddy Curtis saying something to the effect that the best cat follow up gun was a FN FAL 7.62 on semi.

I also know PH's who prefer the benelli shotgun, and others who prefer a big bore double; but lets face it, you go in with what you have.

An M1 Garand, with eight 150 grain sturdy expanding bullets in the en bloc clip, in my hands, or in the hands of any other reasonably capable man, would be an excellent choice.

But I have been forced to follow them up with .338 and .375 magnum bolt rifles, and somehow they and I (and we) have managed to get the job done.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
Doesn't really matter if its tall grass or not.
You shoot a rifle you know and shoot best. Its not the time to borrow your buddies super duper semi auto cat stopper that you've never shot before. A Shotgun with anything else but slugs is for bird shooting. An extra pair of clean underpants in your pocket is also in order.

Follow this chaps advice. The PH's I have known who have been scratched by Leopard had used a shotgun.

............................................................BINGO!!!

if you hit a wounded( or healthy) leopard properly at 12-15 feet with good 00 buckshot/SSG, you will kill him. if you make a bad shot, don't blame the weapon-it's your fault.....the blood on this leopard's neck is the direct result of a load of SSG delivered at about 10-12 feet as he went airborne towards me.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
every time I've seen shotguns used, they've failed and the pellets are usually found under the skin and embedded in but not penetrated through the skull.

I have to agree. This has been my personal experience also . I'm sure one can get lucky and kill one with a shotgun , but I believe its playing Russian roulette.
While Shotguns are used to kill Hogs etc , it should be remembered that hogs are nowhere near the same beast as Leopard when wounded.
I have experienced both Lion and Leopard maulings and have had to clean up after my fair share of wounded ones. Its not fun and the last thing I want to worry about is possibly not having enough fire power. But , to each his own.

If I found myself in such a situation I would want a Double "ten gage" for leopard and for Lion my 470NE or my ex 425 Westley.

I got my DVD from www.outdoorvisions.com.

Owners, Bob and Betty Harper are wonderful people and I am sure they will help you to get it. I think Bob was president of Dallas Safari club.

I live in Mexico and regulary I have my DVD'S from them.

This DVD is a most have, because besides an actual leopard charge, half of DVD is a series of tests with a shotgun, with differnt type of loads.

Also it handles several interviews with very experience PH's, about this subject.

They "proof" how inefective a shotgun can be with buck shot.

If you call Bob or Betty, tell them that Luis from Mexico send them his regards.

quote:

Originally posted by cazador2:
I got my DVD from www.outdoorvisions.com.

Owners, Bob and Betty Harper are wonderful people and I am sure they will help you to get it. I think Bob was president of Dallas Safari club.

I live in Mexico and regulary I have my DVD'S from them.

This DVD is a most have, because besides an actual leopard charge, half of DVD is a series of tests with a shotgun, with differnt type of loads.

Also it handles several interviews with very experience PH's, about this subject.

They "proof" how inefective a shotgun can be with buck shot.

If you call Bob or Betty, tell them that Luis from Mexico send them his regards.

Thank you Casador2, I have bought most of my DVDs from them as well, but mostly I only buy them at the DSC show from their booth. I agree they are very nice people, and a pleasure to do business with! I'll pass along your regards to them!
....................................................................

Remington makes Tungsten alloy buckshot loads. They would eliminate the problem of pellet expansion.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com...llets-5-rds?a=202713

Only on one lion hunt as an observer, one shot from a 416, back flip, tail twitch, dead.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cazador2:
I strongly recomed a DVD by Rob Austin called MAULED!

It is about an injured leopard hunt and what happen afterwords using a shotgun.[/QUOTE

I know Rob well. He has filmed for me before. That video is fairly old. Probably 12-15 years. Well before the latest plated buckshot was available.

When that video was made, I would not have used a shotgun. The buckshot sucked. We used that old stuff all the time deer hunting when I was a kid. At best, it was marginal.

The new plated buckshot is vastly superior . Say what you want about it. I have used it to shoot big boar hogs with extremely thick shields 2-3 inches thick . Those shields are very tough. Then go through the body cavity and stick in the far side. There is zero doubt in my mind that this shield is far more difficult to penetrate than any leopard alive.

I had a rather hairy follow up a couple of year ago. Massive leopard. He was finished with a single shot from a 12 gauge with the new plated buckshot.

Then there is the issue of which gun one is more likely to hit the cat with. For me personally, that is a shotgun.

Have always used a 12gauge o/u with a multiple assortment of chokes to suit any occasion and never been let down. If the first shot didn't conclude the job, the second did.

Its all about effective shooting distance and using selected high brass shells, not just any OO Buck.

I have never been, nor ever had any casualties (maybe I was just lucky)and will continue using a 12gauge on Leopard; all others can think and do as they think is best.

To-date, no Leopard has ever been lost.

I am a firm believer in a 12ga pump - Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 - loaded with 3" plated 00 or 0 buckshot, for Leopard. Of course, I carried that weapon in combat, as an optional weapon, and also for 20+ years on the job, so am very familiar with its' capabilities and limitations. I have also used it to stop a charge with a brain shot at under 2 yards in Africa. You must be able to hold your mud and let the animal get close.

larryshores and fujotupu are spot on about the proper application of this weapon and ammunition. And as with any weapon, practice, practice and then some more practice are what makes the difference between a dead kitty and a mauling.

I think your favorite/most familiar rifle makes sense. If Michel took a shotgun in after a lion, it was either all he had, or he used slugs. But then, the man thinks like a cat.