Walt,

Did you ever miss an elephant's brain with a .416?

No I have never used a 416 on elephant or any other animal. I personaly prefer some thing a little bigger for my own use since I knew I would be hunting tuskless and tusked cows in mixed herds in thick jesse. Since I have seen the 450/400 knock down a couple on missed brain shot I assume the 416s will as well. But it is an assumption on my part.

465H&H

Using a .416 I dropped a smallish tuskless with a frontal shot that was a bit too high, and she stayed down long enough. However, recognizing the difficulty of making the perfect shot in typical jesse hunting conditions, I am now more comfortable with my Lott. But hey, debates such as this are part of the fun, and there is no one right answer. In fact, many of us have/will change our opinions over time. One of the late-greats had this to say regarding this very same topic “way back†in 2001:

quote:

Originally posted by George Hoffman:...I will bet if you get to go enough times you will make a full circle on your choices... Experimenting is half of the fun. This way after years of experience you can have some good comparisons. Heck, if I could go on an elephant cropping scheme, I would take two or three different calibers just for my own edification. George

I miss postings like that from ol' George. Rest in peace.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

2) Charging cow elephant PH missed frontal brain shot with 450/400 400 grain but knocked her down and killed her with next shot.

465H&H

465H&H,

Is this the cow that Gomez dropped? If so, I have been living all these years believing that he brained it. Damn, that sheds new light on that shot!

Bill

youa re only under gunned if you would be undergunned with a 416 rigby or 450/400 or 404 jeffe as well.

the 416 is a fantastic client rifle, but it is NOT a stopping rifle, as the trainin required to shoot a stopping rifle well is generally beyond the average hunter.

compared to a 458 winmag vs 416 rem? it's a pick one, they are both good, situation...

HOWEVER, the 416 rem is sometimes complained of not making 2400, though always 2350... not like a 458 winmag that has a repuation of OLD ammo not being worth betting your life on

legal calibre, and practise so you can put the bullet in the right place.

quote:

Will be primaly hunting buffs but may get to take a elle.(cow)

This is one of the more enjoyable debate threads we have had in awhile. No rancor, just honest opinions. As I look back on Spence's original question though, where the primary quarry will be buff and possibly an ele cow, I think the .416 (your choice of suffix) is more versatile and would be my choice. Again, my cow ele seemed easier to bring down than the bull I shot (may have something to do with a few thousand pounds difference in body weight!) And I see the heavier calibers, especially the .500's, as specialty cartridges.

That said, I have a tuskless on license when I hunt leopard in May in the Valley and I will be carrying a .458 Lott, so you may ignore everything I've posted up to this point!

The classic "do as I say, not as I do."

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

HOWEVER, the 416 rem is sometimes complained of not making 2400, though always 2350... not like a 458 winmag that has a repuation of OLD ammo not being worth betting your life on

I think that with modern powders and some hand loading, the velocity issues with the 458 Win Mag are long gone. I easily get 2,150 and more with a 500 grain bullet and AA2230 powder.

Now for the 416, even if you only got 2,200 fps you are way ahead of the 450/400 which is struggling to get to 2,100 fps with a 400 grain .411" bullet. Go to the double rifle forum and they talk about the 450/400 as being enough for elephant. Also, the 404 Jeffery made its reputation with a 400 grain bullet at 2,150 fps, later increased by some to 2,350 fps.

Anyway, it looks like I am booked to hunt Chewore North for tuskless cow on August 11th, 2007 with Ian Gibson of Big5 Safaris.

I will probably debate taking the 416 vs. 458 and vice versa all the way up to August 10th!

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

HOWEVER, the 416 rem is sometimes complained of not making 2400, though always 2350... not like a 458 winmag that has a repuation of OLD ammo not being worth betting your life on

Damn those 50 fps must make a lot of difference.

I remember, I think it was old Ray, commenting that the .416 Taylor was insufficient and marginal for buffalo and elephant.

But the 450/400 was a great round with power to spare.

So there you have an awnswer.

Go for it!

I have both the .416 Rem and a .458 Lott. I initially bought the .416 to use on Elephant and Buff and would have (I think) been totally comfortable with it. I have never taken it to Africa, opting instead for the .458 Lott and the .375 H&H, which I took last year to Zim for Elephant and Buffalo. On one cow we shot that was charging from 11 yards, my PH missed low on the frontal shot with his .500 Jeffery, it turned the cow though and a second shot behind the shoulder from the .458 Lott finished her off (she was not a huge cow). That being said, as much as I think the .458 Lott is a great elephant and buffalo gun, I sometimes wonder the practicality of having it, since it is probably limited only to those animals. The .416 Rem, on the other hand, would be useful on a variety of game, including very small species, with solids.

Prdator, you are definitely not under-gunned with the .416 Rem. You have asked a question which generates a lot of interest. As you can imagine, shot placement is curcial. Brain is stupendous, but don't forget heart/lung. A .416 rem solid will easily travel 6 feet inside an elephant with a heart/lung shot.

Please bear in mind that one shot is all you may get. I like to think about those nice follow-up shots, but don't count on it. In 2006 I took elephant with the .416 Rem in the Caprivi of Namibia. After receiving the heart shot (400 grain Trophy-Bonded Sledgehammer) he turned behind other elephants, so I was left with the vision of my elephant running off with the herd, completely protected from further shots. Fortunately, he was found on the ground, unconscious in a pool of blood 200 yards away.

One other comment about .416. I had a chance to visit with famous ivory hunter Ian Nyschens in Harare in recent years. He had high praise for the .416 Rem for elephant. He said it was in a class of its own. What he didn't like about my .416 was the scope. In fact he told me in his characteristic frankness to take my scope off the gun and throw it away, because it had no place on an elephant hunt. At the time I dismissed these comments, but later I was to realize the truth of it during a PAC elephant hunt in Mozambique. In fact it is easy to be too close to elephant for the use of a scope. They become a danger to have because they interfere with shot placement. Ian knew I could get in trouble. Since that experience I have been quick to remove my scope for close-in elephant work.

As a result, I also recommend that hunters sight-in without the scope so that you are comfortable, confident in the certainty that you will be deadly accurate without a scope when and if the need arises. This certitude is not out of reach. You can obtain it easily with a little practice.