HEy would a guy be under gunned wtih a 416 rem and 400gr softs and solids for any of Africas game or would a 458 win/lott be that much better?

Will be primaly hunting buffs but may get to take a elle.(cow)
Thanks

If you miss the brain on an elephant, do not expect it to fall down stunned if shot with a .416.

Dan is correct but you can say the same for any caliber even the 577 Nitro. It all depends how far from the brain you hit. The heavier the caliber the more latitude you have. For a cow, you should be just fine with the 416. Evem though you may not knock it down they are not that hard to at least turn with a head shot anywhere close to the brain. Esp. since you will not be concentrating on elephants. Many Zim PHs use a 416 of one flavor or another and most survive the season.

465H&H

nothing wrong with a 416 at all, especially if you have one with 2 barrels

You got plenty gun for all animals and most light armored vehciles (with solids). Kudude

Take your .416. Put a properly constructed bullet where it needs to go. Take pictures afterward. Simple.

Mark

No, you would not be under-gunned with a .416 Remington. If plains game are on license then the .416 is the better one-gun choice.

If however, the safari is buffalo and elephant my vote goes to the .458 caliber and 500 grain bullets.

Bigger is always better providing you can shoot the Lott as well as your .416. I found I shot better w/ the .404J than I did w/ my Lott. So I don't feel undergunned.

Prdator

I have killed buff and elephants with a 9,3x74R, a 450/400 3 1/4" and a 450 No2.

Your 416 will be fine. Instead of buying a new rifle buy a backup scope for your 416. Fit them both in quality Quick Detach mounts, carry the scopes in your carry on.
Spend the rest of the money practice shooting, especially off hand to @70 yards and off sticks to 200.

Bell shot a lot of ele with 6.5 and 7mm calibers

Most of us (all of us?) will never aqcuire his expertise but we can´t be all that bad?

No,

Remember that the majority of PG in Africa are shot with .270-.323 cal rifles - cleanly, most of those with the ubiqitous cals like .270/.308 and .30-06/.300 etc(by locals and visitors)

I realise a visting hunter can benefit from a little more penetration and 'knock down power' for shots they may not want to pass up, hence the popularity of the .375 for PG.

Many buff and ele are taken cleanly with .416's and have been since before WW1 (just post 1912 actually). If you were making a carrer of shooting buff /hippo/rhino and ele , then a .416 would be a good start point.


While it is a very good choice if you can shoot it well, you simply don't need a .416 for 99% of African game. Obviously you must use what you want and what gives you enjoyment, but undergunned, not at all.

Doesn't Buzz carry a 416 Rigby to back up his clients?

I know he has a lot more experience when it comes to placing the bullet in the right place on a charging elephant. However, I still think he relies on a .416" 400 grain bullet at +/- 2,400 fps.

Tim

Of course a .458 Lott would be better, especially for elephant.

And a .500 A2 would be better yet.

For DG, a good rule of thumb is bigger is better, IMHO.

Hey Spence,
I think any of the .416's are perfect for buffalo and absolutely adequate for elephant. I shot my eles with a .416 and would not hesitate to carry it over to use on elephant again. I agree with the other posts regarding the versatility of the .416 when compared to the Lott.

However, bigger is better on elephant and if my main objective and focus was elephant and I wanted and/or needed an excuse for another rifle... you would have my vote to add a .458 to your collection!

But, honestly, the .416 will work in 95% of the situations you find yourself in. And Shumba is right...Buzz and a number of PH's carry Ruger RSM's in .416 Rigby because they are reasonbly priced and effective! (and because the Zim government stole his Ruger in .458 Lott )

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shumba:
Doesn't Buzz carry a 416 Rigby to back up his clients?

I know he has a lot more experience when it comes to placing the bullet in the right place on a charging elephant. However, I still think he relies on a .416" 400 grain bullet at +/- 2,400 fps.
[QUOTE]



Yes, as does Myles McCallum, Derk DuPlooy and some times Ian Gibson.
ozhunter

It is my understanding that Buzz does, indeed, carry a .416 Rigby. It is also my understanding that he tried to get a Lott but ran into problems. Hence, he continues to carry the Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

I know he has a lot more experience when it comes to placing the bullet in the right place on a charging elephant.

As much as I like Buzz, I wouldn't bet my life on it!

He has bought himself some sort of double anyway.

Buzz told me at DSC he has a 450 No2.

quote:

I know he has a lot more experience when it comes to placing the bullet in the right place on a charging elephant.

As much as I like Buzz, I wouldn't bet my life on it!

He has bought himself some sort of double anyway.[/QUOTE]

This was a quote from above mine and yes Buzz will be happy if clients leave any left over 470NE Ammo or Brass.

You can bet your life on that one!

Just spoke with Ian Gibson on the phone (he is at the SCI show). I told him to put me down for a tuskless cow (and possibly buffalo as well) hunt in Chewore North.

I asked if he thought I should bring the 416 Rem or the 458 Win Mag for the tuskless hunt. He told me to be sure to bring the 416 Rem. because he likes the penetration of the 416 Rem better for elephant hunting.

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
Doesn't Buzz carry a 416 Rigby to back up his clients?

I know he has a lot more experience when it comes to placing the bullet in the right place on a charging elephant. However, I still think he relies on a .416" 400 grain bullet at +/- 2,400 fps.

Yes. And he says it does not stop or turn an ele when the brain is missed.

Of course one is free to believe anything that they see or hear.

John Taylor claimed that anything would go down assuming the brain shot was "close enough," which he applied to elephant and buffalo. The caveat is what is close enough.

But regardless of Taylor or Buzz or anyone else might say, I have witnessed both buff and elephant that didn't go down with near misses and elephant go down with near misses specifically with the 416.

The 416 will certainly knock down an elephant. To say it won't means to me that one doesn't know where the brain is such that the bullet misses by a large margin....so yeah that 416 is crap!

What amazes me most is the seemingly lack of knowledge by some as to where the brain is on an elephant, and worse, they are not particularly bothered by the fact either!!!

Taking a brain shot on an elephant is serious business to me, and comprises the essence of elephant hunting, not taking pencils and rock candy for the natives.

To all those offended by this I hereby apologize.

As Will and Buzz have observed, the 416 Rem has less margin for error than larger calibers on missed ele brain shots. From personal experience I can say that with a .50 cal rifle, only one elephant on which I missed the brain ever failed to drop immediately.

Perhaps if those of us that have missed a brain shot on ele would detail their experience we can get some idea of true ability of various calibers to knock down elephants. I'll go first. These are cases of mine or ones that I persoanlly witnessed.

1) A large bodied bull elephant. 465 Nitro, 480 gr. at 2,150. Knocked down on frontal shot, he got up and I knocked him down again on a missed side brain shot, PH knocked him down again and knocked him out on a side brain shot with a 450/400 400 grain.

2) Charging cow elephant PH missed frontal brain shot with 450/400 400 grain but knocked her down and killed her with next shot.

3) Large cow with 458 Lott 550 grain. Bullet missed brain on frontal shot but she was knocked down and unable to get up.

4) Cow knocked down and out with 458 Lott 550 grain on a side brain shot that missed brain.

5) Large bull. Missed side brain shot with 458 Lott 550 grain. Bull was knocked down and unable to rise.

6) Charging cow. Cow was knocked down with 375 H&H with 300 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid that missed the brain.

7) Missed frontal shot on good sized bull with 470 Nitro 500 grain. Bull was not knocked down and ran off. (It was retrieved though).

So out of 9 missed brain shots, eight were knocked down by calibers ranging from the 375H&H to the 458 Lott. Looks like a pretty good success rate to me.

465H&H

465 H&H,

What happened on #6? Did the cow get up?

Looks like the 550 grain .458 caliber was most effective. Bullet weight?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
only one elephant on which I missed the brain ever failed to drop immediately.

Dan, I know you have shot quite a few elephant (as shown in Buzz's video as well), but HOW MANY elephant have you actually shot at while aiming for the brain and missed???

Sounds like you either have:

A) a very small sample of missed brain shots to compare, or

B) a need to watch Buzz's video over & over, until you are sure where the ele's brain is



Tim

It was an appy PH that was real fast on the trigger but unfortunately not too accurate. He hit it twice more once in the neck and again in the lower cheek as it turned to go. We tracked it up and the APH finished it with a heart shot.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Buliwyf:
465 H&H,

What happened on #6? Did the cow get up?

Looks like the 550 grain .458 caliber was most effective. Bullet weight?

I don't think the sample size is suffecient to make that call.

465H&H

465 H&H,

Do you know the maker of the .458 550 grainers?

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
only one elephant on which I missed the brain ever failed to drop immediately.

Dan, I know you have shot quite a few elephant (as shown in Buzz's video as well), but HOW MANY elephant have you actually shot at while aiming for the brain and missed???

Are you asking if I missed the whole elephant??


But I have missed the brain on 4 shots, and 3 of the ele dropped as if stone dead. On the 4th, the ele just backed up 2 steps before receiving a shot from my other barrel which killed it.

These were all with the .500 or the .505.

In case anyone is getting ready to jump to conclusions, this in no way proves that the .416 will turn or drop ele if the brain is missed.

But do not believe me. In Ian Nyschen's book "Months of the Sun", he explains being fearful of going into the thick jesse with only a .404 due to its inadequate stopping power.

Flaming begin!

More flaming I guess but many books contain the author's forsaking of the medium bores (like the 404) for the bigger guns.

Bigger is definitely better. It always is but the 416 is big enough in the vast majority of the circumstances that the hunter will find himself.

I want to try those 550 gr. Woodleigh solids. If 465H&H is correct, they will scare them to death!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
More flaming I guess but many books contain the author's forsaking of the medium bores (like the 404) for the bigger guns.

Bigger is definitely better. It always is but the 416 is big enough in the vast majority of the circumstances that the hunter will find himself.

I want to try those 550 gr. Woodleigh solids. If 465H&H is correct, they will scare them to death!

I hope you will report your reults as it will be interetsing to see if you have the same results as I did,

465H&H

Dan!

Have you missed a brain shot with any other caliber. If so what were the reults?

The 550 grain bullets I used were Woodleigh round nosed solids.

465H&H

Walt, I have not - I have only missed brain shots with the .500 and .505. But I did observe a guy miss a brain shot with a .375 H&H. The ele ran off like nothing happened.

And here are some stories that I verified with people present:

1. 4 frontal brain shots with .700 NE, missed brain, ele did not drop, then shot and killed with .505 Gibbs. To be fair to the cartridge, the shooter has a reputation for not being able to hit a medium sized cardboard box at 20 yards.

2. 2 side brain shots with .470 NE, shots went high, elephant did not drop and ran off and was found a couple of months later angrily squashing subsistence farmers.

3. Frontal brain shot with .375. Missed brain and ele charged. Followed by frontal brain shot with .458 win mag (missed brain), followed by frontal brain shot with 458 lott (missed brain). Elephant did not drop and did not turn its charge. Another shot with .458 Lott hit the brain and killed ele.

4. Missed frontal brain shot with .700 NE. Ele turned to depart, but a second shot in the heart got him.

5. Also see this report http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Numbe...Main=69154#Post70278

ON two occasions, I missed the brain of elephants with my 375/404.

On both occasions, the elephants dropped and lay on their sides thrashing about, a second bullet killed them.

I read how someone had made up a sort of "time table" of how long an elephant would stay down if hit in the head but the brain was missed.

In that time table the claim was the elephant would stay down longer.

I am afriad I do not believe this statement for one minute.

When one misses the brain, regatrdless of what caliber he is using, anything can happen.

One does not need a very large caliber to kill elephants. One has to hit the brain to do it.

This has been proven many times by those who cull them with 308.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
ON two occasions, I missed the brain of elephants with my 375/404.

Those would not have happened if you had named that cartridge the 404/375 like you were suppose to.

Even after studying Buzz's video on ele hunting + seeing a lot of other footage of mainly muffed up brain shots and reading all the books. I still can't for 100% picture the exact angle of the frontal brain shot on a ele.

Before going on my one and only ele hunt so far! I remember asking Tony Sanchez where best to shoot an ele. He smiled and pointed behind the shoulder and shook his finger at me and said no brain shot.

Not normally one to follow good advice I listened this time and was pleased with the result. My first shot at 25 yards was in the shoulder, 2nd was a raking angle shot, as it turned to go, which was also the same place the PH shot with his 458 (totally unneccessary and he admitted so later) and my final shot with the 404 was when it swung broadside again and was crossing. It went less than 35 yards from where it was first hit and was stone dead. My first and last shot was right above the heart and the two holes were virtually touching each other on the shoulder, we couldnt quite figure out what the two raking shots did, other than see it has caused quite a bit of internal damage which would have probably killed it if my first shot wasnt good.

I also remember reading somewhere in JA Hunters book, of him saying that the frontal brain shot angle is 100% perfect ONLY when the ele is a certain distance from you head on, I guess this happens mostly in a charge situation and I guess most hunters blaze off at the head and in this day lets face it how many PHs have had sufficient practice to perfect a frontal brain shot every time!

So my next ele will also be shoulder shot, unless he is about to grab me from the front!

Frankly I dont see the wisdom in the seemingly common practice of the hunter taking a bad frontal brain shot, the elephant wheels around on a dime the PH puts in a lung shot, you take one parting shot at its ass (if you are using a bolt gun) or another bad headshot with your favorite double and the ele drops dead within 100 yards from your PHs lung shot!

I am not saying a classic brain shot is not a great shot, its just not for me and I think most modern day hunters who are going to shoot a few elephant in their lifetime. After all, we are all 50-100 years too late to learn the perfect brain shot each time! Let's be thankful we have had the wonderful experience of shooting an elephant.

Veddy British, Will, old chap.

But to get back to the question, I think this discussion just proves, at least to me IMHO, why one should err, if in doubt, on the side of a low, rather than a high, frontal brain shot.

I'm pretty sure that I either missed or just grazed the underside of the brain of my one and only bull elephant.

Yet, he simply turned to his right and dropped onto all fours like a stone. He even remained upright, and obligingly remained still, from his neck back, as I put in several finishers.

I think that's because, even though I may have missed his brain, I'm pretty sure I hit his spine. A high shot, of course, wouldn't do that.

I should add that I'm not sure whether I missed, grazed, or maybe even hit his brain, or even his spine, because we had no chance to do any kind of post mortem examination.

The locals were too quick with the butchering - although they did find and hand over to us two bullets that they recovered from somewhere inside the massive carcass.

Dan,

The reason I limited my instances of missed brain shots to those I missed myself or witnessed my self is that we have all heard stories and when we recount them we tend to be selective on what we report. I suspect you also heard reports and can recount where various calibers knocked down elephants with missed brain shots.

Here is my opinion on this whole matter. Any caliber can fail to knock down an elephant with a missed brain shot. The larger the hammer (caliber or bullet weight) the more likely it is to go down. At some point of increasing caliber you get to the point that rifle weight or recoil energy gets too high to make a caliber practical to carry long distances or handle effectively in an emergency. For me that is a rifle weight of more than 10 1/2 lbs or recoil levels greater than that of the 458 Lott with 550 grain bullets. More macho hunters can probably handle more of either.

Several here have mentioned the need to "Perfect the Brain shot". In my opinion that is not possible..ever. Even Bell talked about missing something like 10% of his brain shots. I have seen a PH with over 3,000 elephants to his credit miss a brain shot on two seperate occasions. There are too many factors such as changing angles, a bouncing head etc. to aloow anyone to be perfect on brain shots. Do enough and you are guaranteed to miss. You can increase youer odds of hitting the brain through studying the problem and shooting elephants but you will never get perfect. It is also in my opinion, the height of foolishness and inflated ego to not have your PH back you up if you miss a brain shot.

But back to answering the original question. The 416 in any flavor is perfectly suitable to hunt elephant. Unless you are going to spend many days, months or years chasing eles in the jesse you don't need a bigger caliber.

465H&H