This ought to add a little fuel to the lever gun on safari debate.

Dave Clay of DRC Custom Guns is building 86 Winchesters chambered in 450/110. This is basically a 50/110 case necked down to 458. Case length is 2.4 inches and COAL is 2.88 inches. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammo is doing load development and reports 2425 with a 400 grain bullet from a 21 inch barrel. Should get 2000 fps with 500 grain bullets.

50/110 Brass is readily avaliable from Starline and case forming is easy according to Dave.
When Dave showed me a loaded cartridge I just had to have one. I will report results when it is finished.

Jeff Collins

I mentioned this on that thread, they skipped over it. Simply because it comes in a levergun, they won't acknowledge that it has more then enough potential.
Its like the "ultra magnum" of leverguns, I suppose, and will hold it's own in any situation. I look forward to the day it becomes a factory cartridge, what with Mr Sundles doing the load developement. ~~~Suluuq

I would reckon that cartridge would be super. I still wish Marlin would do a .50 Alaskan.

Suluuq,
Many lever gun bashers also don't realize that John Brownings 86 Winchester is a true contol round feed design. There is a finger that pulls the rim of the cartridge out of the magazine tube and guides it into the lips of the carrier which are formed of spring steel. The carrier then flips up as the lever is fully opened and the bolt then pushes the cartridge out of the carrier. The cartridge does not disengage the carrier until it is in the mouth of the chamber.

No chance of a short stroke causing a jam. A short stroke causes the bolt to close on an empty chamber. If that happens simply work the lever fully the next time and the gun will go bang like its supposed to.

Jeff

Sounds like an absolute crap caliber to me.

1. Cast bullets are not tough enough for elephant, buffalo, hippo and rhino.

2. 400 grain .458 bullets do not have adequate sectional density for deep penetration.

If you were telling me about a lever gun that pushes 500 grains at 2200 fps, I would be impressed. But I am not impressed with what is just a tad more than a 45-70.

Guys,

When the round and gun become available, you should take it to Africa and hunt buffalo, hippo, rhino, and elephant with it.

After a few hundred of each have been taken successfully, with no significant system failures, we can talk about it being a DGR combo. But marketing hype and unsubstantiated claims are not enough for this crowd.

There may be great leaps and strides being taken in this area, but it still remains for a large body of evidence to be created.

I'm sure that the blackpowder crowd scoffed at the new, "small-bore" smokeless nitro express guns and rounds when they first came out. In relatively short order however, the nitro-express rounds proved themselves in the game fields.
I'm sure the double-gun crowd didn't accept the reliability and power of a properly-built bolt-action on DG either at first. However, no one could deny the effectiveness or applicability of the bolt-action today.
If and when the lever-action has "gone and done" enough on DG, then it too may be added to the list of proper DGRs. But not before then.

George

For me, there would be a couple of problems with a lever action. However, my opinions are based on shooting roos from the vehichle chasing the roos. Some of this might apply to Africa, or perhaps none will apply.

Firstly, they will jam and when they do it is a big deal as compared to the bolt action. All actions jam up. Mini 14s will break extractors, but the bolt actions with a problem are not to big a deal.

Secondly, it is almost impossible to load the magazine while in the back of the vehichle chasing the roos.

Thirdly, you can never tell what is left in the magazine.

I first learned about M94s when I was about 20. Took away a M70 375, M17 in 308 Norma necked to 270 and Model 94 in 30/30.

The Model 94 was put to one side very early.

I don't think other lever actions would have overcome the Model 94s shortfalls. Levers look great and feel great but I will tell you now they are not worth shit when chasing roos and I have seen that several times.

Overall, the bolt action is best.

Mike

[ 06-17-2002, 18:43: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

500grains,

Please don't hold back; tell us what you really think.

MacD37,
You obviously have not carefully studied the functioning of the 86 Win action. It is very different than the model 94 or Marlin 95 action and it is certainly a lot different than a push feed bolt gun like the Rem 700.

Short stoke jams are a problem on marlin lever actions which feed the cartridge from the mag tube under spring pressure into the carrier where they sit loose and are lifted up and pushed by the bolt into the chamber. The following is a quote from a post on the Beartooth bullets site on that subject.

"Last weekend, I got my first jams by gently easing the lever to drop fired cases into my hand rather than letting them eject normally. The following cartridge then wedges in front of the carrier with the case rim hung up at the mouth of the magazine tube. Real pain in the neck to clear. Nerve racking too because tapping the jammed cartridge free means tapping awfully close to the live primer. Whew! Moral... never, ever short cycle your levergun!"

The 86 Winchester is and I repeat a TRUE CONTROLLED ROUND FEED. The cartridge is pulled our of the mag tube by a finger kinda like an extractor that is attached to the lever. The finger/guide pulls the cartridge into the carrier which has a pair of spring steel wings which hold the cartridge securely as it is lifted upward.

If the lever is short stroked the finger which guides the cartridge out of the mag tube will push the cartridge back into the mag tube. Hence no chance for two cartridges to get stuck in the action.

The 86 action will cycle at any angle even upside down. A short stroke does not cause two rounds to get stuck in the action but instead a short stroke results in the carrier not raising up and the worst thing you get is an empty chamber and a click when you pull the trigger. The problem is rectified by simply working the lever completely the next time and pulling the trigger.

I believe the chances of a short stroke under field conditions when hunting is very small to non existant. When excited people tend to work the lever vigorously which eliminates a short stroke. Most short strokes occur at the bench where the shooter is deliberately cycling the action.

As to brass the new 50/110 brass is made by Starline and is based on their 50 Alaskan case and specifcally designed for modern pressure smokeless power loads.

Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammo is doing load development and has reported 2400 fps with 430 grain cast bullets and 2425 fps with 400 grain Kodiac softs in his personal gun which has I believe a 21 inch barrel. That is I believe the same velocities given for 400 grain loads in the 458 Win Mag. There is no reason to believe that the 450/110 wouldn't match the 458 with heavier bullets as well.

If hit with a 500 grain bullet at 2100 FPS a buff won't care whether it came from a lever or a bolt gun he'll be just as dead either way.

Jeff Collins

[ 06-17-2002, 20:53: Message edited by: jnc91 ]

500 Grains,
When you can come up with a factual response other than name calling, unsupported statements and misrepresentations of what I have posted I might bother responding to your crap.
Jeff

jnc91. What about necking it down to a 400. Either .408, .411., or .416 diameter. Lets see.... 400grains at 2125 to 2150 fps. Sounds like one of the great 450/400's to me. I have never seen a Marlin "jam". I have seen a lot of magnum bolt guns fail to feed, eject etc., which is why I use only doubles for dangerous game.

N E 450 No2,
I personally have never seen a marlin jam either. I do not own one and can only report what has been observed by others which is that it is possible to jam one by short stroking. I personally feel that the Marlin is very reliable.

As to the 450/110 Wildcat the 86 Win is the only lever gun long enough to handle the cartridge.

As to necking down to 40 cal I think that it certainly would be possible.

I will say that the 450/110 is probably at its peak efficiency with 400 grain bullets due to the fact that when seated to the crimp groove the base of the bullet is about even with the neck of the case. Longer bullets such as 460 grains or 500 grains will extend down into the case and compress the powder slightly. I don't know how much if any this will affect velocity if any with the 500 grainers but this cartridge may turn out to be best with a 460 or 480 grain bullet for DG instead of 500 grainers kinda like the 450 Nitro which you are obviously fond of.
Jeff

I have quite a bit of experence with two marlin 45/70 rifles. I sold mind to my nephew after I started using doubles, He needed a good pig gun. The lever gun is one of the easiest repeating sporting rifles to reload, and except for the Krag the only one I know of that can be recharged with the bolt closed on a live round...HUMMM what about a Krag in 404 jeffery???? A little cutting here a little welding there....

OOOPS. Forgot about the big Weatherbys, 378, 416, and 460. You can turn the gun upside down, open the floor plate and drop in fresh rounds, the mag only holds two, close the floorplate, turn the gun right side up and you are ready to go. Try that with a Mauser.

When Saeed gets home lets see if he would consider setting up a lever action forum. Then the leveraction loonies would have a place to discuss how they know more than the folks who have been there and done it.

These "Let's take a Lever gun to Africa" threads are a waste of space on the best African Hunting Forum on the net.

No JMac,
What is a waste of time on this forum is name calling. I made a post of info for discussion. I have answered my critics with fact and reason. If all you can do is call me a looney than I guess you have nothing of substance to say and maybe you should keep your mouth shut.

Jeff Collins

I wonder why my PH says my .375 H&H with 270 grain Swift A-Frames at 2700 fps would be a good choice for a Cape Buffalo hunt?

jnc91,

I for one enjoy hearing about possible new cartridges designed for dangerous game (and non-dangerous game too.)

It's an amazing thing about the negative responses. Why some folks insist on "pissing on other folks Wheaties" is beyond me. Nobody is forcing them to agree, accept, or even acknowledge the fact that these cartridges and rifles can in fact work in a dangerous game situation.

As always, honest and fair criticism are to be expected, but when somebody comes out and calls a cartridge "crap", they must know that they are insulting the original poster.

From what I've seen here in the past, Saeed is very open to all forms of discussion. Censoring, or limiting, of true hunting/shooting related topics is not his style.

We all place certain limits on ourselves while hunting. Perhaps anyone not shooting absolutely the largest cartridge they can accurately handle could be accused of pulling a "stunt"? It would be a sorry day when we accuse a hunter using a 404 Jeffery on Cape Buffalo, to be a fool, simply because the 458 Lott is available.

(The above is an example, don't get caught up in the cartridges mentioned.)

I've been with this website for many years, back when the format was much different (pre-infopop days.) It would be very pretentious, to assume that only our interests, are the interests of the other 4500 members here at AccurateReloading.

[ 06-18-2002, 00:31: Message edited by: BW ]

MacD37,
You are correct if you define control round feed in that manner the 86 Win extracter does not catch the rim until the lever is completely closed.

My 86 is at the gunsmith being converted so I cannot try what you suggest however I am not sure that I agree with your description of how the action works.

Starting from a closed lever and an empty chamber the lever opens. The cartridge is physically pulled from the action by a claw attached to the lever into the wings of the carrier. When the lever hits the end of its foward throw the carrier swings up and as the bolt closes the round is pushed into the chamber. The carrier remains up until the bolt is completely and then and only then does it swing back down to its original position. The second round does not leave the mag tube until the lever physically pulls it from the tube and pulls it into the wings of the carrier as it is opened. If the lever is closed before the stroke is completed the cartridge is guided back into the mag tube. Like I said I don't have my rifle in front of me to play with as I write this but that is how I understand from memory the action to work. I just don't see how two rounds could get stuck in the action but I could be wrong.

Jeff Collins

Sorry for double post.
Jeff

[ 06-17-2002, 23:52: Message edited by: jnc91 ]

Three separate kills.

Jackfish,

You omitted the fact that those were taken with a .45-70, not the .45-110.

The hunter runs "The Firing Line" website, and took these buff in Tanzania.

I read the posts; buff #1 took 1 shot; buff #2 took 4 shots; buff #3 took 7 shots. Buff hunting can get exciting.

George

GeorgeS, I am not concerned with the 45-110 but am trying to make the point, which I tried to make in the other thread, that the 45-70 in a lever gun has been successfully used to take Cape Buffalo. Does that make a 45-70 lever gun a DGR? Maybe not. I don't think many of us will be worried about Elephant and Hippo, as a Cape Buffalo hunt is probably the hunt of a lifetime. Indeed, there are few of us who will actually hunt, or really care to hunt for that matter, Elephant and Hippo. The 45-70 lever gun is certainly capable of taking Cape Buffalo. Pooh Pooh all you want but there are the facts.

If I remember correctly there is a PH who uses a 45/70 Marlin Co Pilot as a lion backup rifle. As to lever action TR took a Winchester M95 lever to Africa, but then the past is another country.
DVC
Doyle

Jackfish,

Please take a few minutes to read my posts on both threads. I can wait.

Now, a few questions for you:

Did I say the .45-70/.450Marlin/.45-110 could not do the job on buff on occasion and under ideal conditions, or did I say it was not a DGR?

Did I tell anyone NOT to use it, or did I encourage them to take it to Africa for buff?

Did I say no one EVER used a .45-70 lever-action on DG, or did I say it wasn't the best choice, especially on thick-skinned game?

Did a lever-action fan ask US for our opinion, or did we go to a lever-action site and "piss on their corn flakes"?

BTW, Rich is not a member of the MT forums, so my statement is still true; nobody there has done any DG hunting with a lever-action despite all the big talk. If someone can convince him to sign up, then there will at least be one guy who can speak from experience.

Rich wanted to try taking buff with his .45-70 and he did so, putting his money where his mouth was. I congratulate him for having the guts to do it. Now the rest of you need to get after it and stop fantasizing.

After a few hundred such results, we can re-examine the issue.

George

jnc91,

Judging by the number of your posts, it seems you are heavily vested in the outcome of this debate.

Generally for deep penetration a sectional density of .300 or above with a muzzle velocity of 2150 or above is considered minimum. Your 400 grain .458 bullet fails in the sectional density department.

Move up to 450 or 500 grains, and I think that your proposed new caliber will fail in the velocity department.

Add to that the fact that most new cartridges are hyped in the velocity department at introduction, and we will probably see actual velocities 200 fps lower than what you have stated.

In other words, it is not a dangerous game cartridge.

I have not used a model 1886, but the other levers I own and use jam like a house afire when things go wrong.

And things go wrong dangerous game hunting. Count on it.

BW, I appreciated your remarks.

But what if it were loaded with Match Kings? Then would it be ok for Buff?

500Grains,
I am not heavily vested in the out come of this post. I am very excited about the new rifle that I am having built and frankly I was a little miffed at the dismissive tone of some of the posts. They seem to regurgitate old platitudes with out having read and thought about the information I put out.

I have made a number of posts today because I am off of work today and the computer is always on when I see a new post I answer it.

As to the velocity figures. The velocity figures Tim Sundles reported are consistant with estimates from my load from a disc software.

The first loads developed just a few weeks ago are equal to a 458 mag with 400 grain bullets and there is no reason to believe that won't hold true for 500 grain bullets as well.

jnc91,

I would like to thank you for bringing this to all of our attention. Guys like 500grains usually need to be taken with a grain of salt. The cape buffalo is no tougher than an american bison albeit potentially more aggressive. Literally millions of american bison were killed by 45-70 shooting 405 grain soft lead bullets in front of 70 grains of FFg black powder! I often wonder how many of the no it alls on this forum have actually shot any dangerous game (or any game for that matter). I base this off of some of the ludicrous statements made by many here.

For me the single biggest problem with a lever action BIG BORE CANNON is recoil! These rifles are light and compared to a magnum action Mauser, are carbines any way you want to stretch the imagination. That said, a good lever rifleman can put an aweful lot of lead (or copper plated steel) in the air damned quick!

The section density of the .458 400 grain slug is almost exactly the same as that of the .505 525 grain slug. So in keeping with 500grains argument about section density the good ol' 505 Gibbs won't work for buffalo. 500grains I can tell you there are 6 cape buffalo I know of personally who wish the hell you were right. I killed them all with a 505 Gibbs shooting 525 grain soft points. With only one exception one shot kills. The exception took two!

Todd E

[ 06-18-2002, 04:15: Message edited by: Todd E ]

Next year, I'd love to book a hunt with JJHack.

Just to drive him crazy, perhaps I'll bring my Browning A-Bolt and my Marlin 444SS.



The poor old 375H&H M70 Super Express will just have to stay home...

I think ToddE is right. The 45-70 is a very "capable" round on most anything in North America or Africa. I have taken a North American Bison with one and I even used factory ammunition. Penetration was fine with the Remington Core-Lokt ammunition but shot options were certainly more restricted than if I had been using something more "modern" like a 400 grain Barnes solid doin' 2400 fps. However, I also took a second Bison with my .416 Rem Mag last year expecting exit wounds with my 400 grain X-bullets on broadside shots and didn't get 'em so I guess you never know what might happen right?

I think it is also very important to remember that cape buffalo have a differing rib anatomy that might make penetration a bit tougher on these critters relative to NA Bison.

Obviously, a 45-70 or 45-110 will work on both of these animals(as shown by the photos above) but it might not be the most responsible thing to do as a hunter. Just cuz' something can be done with a "capable" round or weapon doesn't make it the best option. I think if someone really wants to use primitive weaponry on these big boys, he/she should just use a bow eh!

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

HI,

Now here is a subject I know a little about. I am getting a win86 in 50-110 from Mr. Clay. In fact sent him my scope and a check a few weeks ago, I should see my gun next month some time. I like the 50-110 as it throws that big .510 525 grain bullet and will throw it 200 fps more than a 50 Alaskan. I know had a 50 AK, I will get around 2,200 fps with the 525 grain and talk to GSCuston bullet and they told me I should not have a problem with there 500 grain FN Jeffery bullet. I order some of them. I think I will get them between 2,200 -2,250 fps and they will penetrate like no tomorrow.I just order some 50-110 brass,250 rounds, from starline. They informed me they are out of stock right now, but will have some in two weeks.I will get them when they come in.By the way there is reloading done with the 50-110 with a 525 grain out of a 20 inch barrel that got around 2,145 fps without a problem and was informed could have got more easly, we will see. Kev

Two points:

#1 I have no intention of taking a lever gun on safari.

#2 We have no need for any new cartridges - of the dangerous game variety or otherwise.

AD

MacD37,
I don't have my 86 in front of me to play so I will have to concede to you that it may be possible to induce a jam with the 86 if one is trying to.

I'll have to get out one of my Mausers and see if it is possible to get one of them to jam as well (I have two custom sporters which I am very fond of so I am not just some lever freak).

I have not been the least annoyed with your posts. You have simply answered my posts with reason and logic (wish I could say the same for all the posters here). I find the interaction here to be very educational.

While I agree that nothing equals the great 98 Mauser for dependibility I am convinced that my 86 is more than reliable enough to stake my life on.

I also believe that the 45/70 is minimally adequate for buff and that it fits in the same catagory as 375 or 9.3 but the 45/70 is no where near as effective as the 458 or 416.

Finally I believe that 45/110 is a major improvement over the 45/70 and that the cartridge legitimatiy has the potential to equal the balistics of the 450 Nitro/458 Mag in a lever gun.

Each cartridge/rifle choice is combination of strengths, weaknesses and compromises. It is the responsibility hunter to understand what each of these are and to stay within those limits.

ToddE,
You are right recoil is a concern with a lever action cannon. I am having a full length mag tube installed that should bring the weight of my 7.5 pound extra lite up to about 8.0 pounds. Throw in six rounds of ammo and we have about 8.5 pounds. It will have a Decelerator recoil pad and a removable muzzle brake for the shooting bench. As we all know you don't notice the recoil in the field when the action is heating up. Finally sighting will be accomplished with Ashley Ghost Rings.

Jeff Collins

Jack fish were did you get your stock?? I would like one for my 45/70.

Nice Buff & Very Very Very nice rifle

One thing for sure, is a few folks give some sort of "power level" a cartridge must surpass to be accepted, yet some PH's in the past, as well as recently (including at least one very respected hunter here that I remember) have shot DG with lesser rounds.
They try to justify it by saying, "Its all we had at the time".
"Do as I say, not as I do".
Yes! They do indeed have a choice - wait for a more suitable cartridge to be used, as in "Go get one for crying out loud!"
Why advocate a certain minumum, then break it because "Its all we had"?
Using this mentality, why even advocate some "level power" that the cartridges must surpass, if they are just going to reject it when they please, then make some sorry excuse as a means to justify it, all the while blast others for bringing up other cartridges that far surpass them Deer rifles they were using?
~~~Suluuq