Todd E,

There is no need for personal disparagement. Perhaps you are upset because I stated that there was something wrong with your calculations since they show a double rifle to be a stronger action than a bolt (and contrary to more than 100 years experience with both types of rifles). If that caused offense, then I am sorry for it.

PC, not me but Rich Lucibella who runs http://www.thefiringline.com the rifle is the work of Dave Clay http://www.drccustomgunsights.com/

The arguments against the Marlin 1895 45-70 as a DRG apply to the .375 H&H as well (500Grains' criteria). Where is the outcry and outrage about all of those hunters who go afield with the .375 H&H for Cape Buffalo?

GeorgeS, yes I have read what you have written.

I think this argument is not an argument at all. It's semantics. I agree the Marlin 1895 45-70 is not a DGR, but neither is a compound bow. There are several PHs who specialize in bow hunts for Cape Buffalo. There is a PH with a DGR backing up the bow hunter as well as the rifle hunter. Hence, it appears that the game is hunted with a variety of weapons but with DGR backup.

"The Marlin 1895 45-70 can kill Cape Buffalo but it is not a DGR." Such statements are purely semantics to support the broad proposition that the Marlin 1895 is not a DGR while trying to marginalize the facts of several Cape Buffalo kills with same. We have a half-dozen examples of the rare occurrance of Cape Buffalo kills with the 45-70. However, I think we would have heard about one instance of a PH and his client getting stomped by a Cape Buffalo because the client was using a 45-70, if it had occurred. I've heard of a PH and client getting stomped while the clients were using a .375 H&H or .458 Win Mag. Where is the outrage about hunters using the inferior .375 H&H on Cape Buffalo? Certainly these people are irresponsible and as crazy as those on these now numerous threads who say the 45-70 is capable of taking Cape Buffalo.

"Did I say the .45-70/.450Marlin/.45-110 could not do the job on buff on occasion and under ideal conditions, or did I say it was not a DGR?" We obviously agree.

"Did I tell anyone NOT to use it, or did I encourage them to take it to Africa for buff?" We have no argument here.

"Did I say no one EVER used a .45-70 lever-action on DG, or did I say it wasn't the best choice, especially on thick-skinned game?" Apparently, neither is the .375 H&H. Why doesn't it get the same knocks? Hundreds maybe thousands of Buff killed, many PHs and clients stomped.

"Did a lever-action fan ask US for our opinion, or did we go to a lever-action site and "piss on their corn flakes"?" Some guy asked, many replied. The guy's question "possibly dangerous game" was taken by some to mean the big five while many concentrated on Cape Buffalo. Again, there are few people who will ever hunt Elephant or Hippo. I appreciate the responses from those people with African hunting experience. I also would take my PH's advice and bring my .375 H&H for a Cape Buffalo hunt. But there I am lacking as well, so I guess it doesn't matter which I take as they are both lacking, even if I can shoot them equally as well.

"BTW, Rich is not a member of the MT forums, so my statement is still true; nobody there has done any DG hunting with a lever-action despite all the big talk. If someone can convince him to sign up, then there will at least be one guy who can speak from experience." This is not actually true as Vince Lupo had previously posted at Marlin Talk, however you are right that of the current posters probably none have shot a Cape Buffalo with a 45-70.

"Rich wanted to try taking buff with his .45-70 and he did so, putting his money where his mouth was. I congratulate him for having the guts to do it. Now the rest of you need to get after it and stop fantasizing." Why do we have to stop fantasizing when we see examples of Cape Buffalo kills with the 45-70? Just to satisfy you? I think it is agreed upon that the Marlin 1895 45-70 is not a DGR. I think it is also obvious that it is capable of taking Cape Buffalo.

"After a few hundred such results, we can re-examine the issue." Where is the logic of this? How many elephants have been killed with inadequate rifles? Just because inadequate rifles were used doesn't make those animals any less dead or make those rifles appropriate. How many hunters are going afield with handguns, bows and GASP! the .375 H&H for Cape Buffalo?

I think there is more agreement here than is immediately apparent. There is however a great difference in attitude and perspective. I know I'm not right all the time, I'm just glad there are those who are.

Bill,

I also said that the caliber of a DGR should be over .40 if it is used to stop dangerous game. Most PH's stay away from the under .40 calibers because field experience shows that it takes longer for animals to die when shot with an under .40 caliber.

There is a definite difference between a client gun used to perform a stunt, and a DGR.

Jackfish,

If I post a pic here of a buffalo shot with a 25-20, does that make it a DGR?

Thanks for the clarifications, 500Grains. So, actually the 375H&H fails as a "stopping" rifle, not as a "minimum" DGR.

When I get to chase Nyati some day, I plan on using my 375. As stated well in other threads, if I don't like the way it worked, and I get another chance, I can get something bigger!

(Editted to add) I have that wrong. A DGR is supposed to be capable of taking DG under all conditions, so the 375H&H is not really a "minimum" DGR either.

Best regards, Bill

[ 06-18-2002, 19:40: Message edited by: Bill M ]

I guess I'm not the only one who doesn't read carefully.

Edited: BillM, I don't recall you addressing me, hence my response was not to you. And I don't think I was making it personal at all with my response to 500grains.

[ 06-18-2002, 20:42: Message edited by: jackfish ]

Deleted, overcome by events.

Have a nice day.

[ 06-18-2002, 22:54: Message edited by: Bill M ]

Jackfish,

1) Playing semantics is when someone says, "a lever-action has killed a few buffaloes, therefore the lever-action is a buffalo gun."
2) PHs are required, and where DG may be encountered, he is required to carry a rifle capable of stopping charges; most of them choose a bolt-action or double in .375H&H or larger.
If a PH or two in RSA chooses a lever-action, that their choice, but hunting DG in RSA is a lot different than hunting DG in Zimbabwe, Tanzania or other countries.
3) It is not the goal of this Africa hunter to require my PH to fire his gun; I don't rely upon him to back me up. I'm paying good money to take my chances. If you're relying on your PH to save your ass if you screw up, then you're not ready for dangerous game.
4) The .375H&H has been used by tens of thousands of hunters to take many tens of thousands of buffalo since 1912. There have been relatively few stompings. What do you have? A handful of guys using lever-actions to take a handful of buffalo. The odds of a stomping increase with the number of animals hunted. IF more guys use lever-actions on buffalo, we may see the occasional stomping.
4a) Many here at AR do warn users of the .375 of their reservations about the .375's ability to stop or turn a charge by large, thick-skinned game.
5) What does 'dangerous game' mean, if not the Big Five, plus hippo? Zebras and duikers?
I excluded lions and leopards early on; I have used a .375 on buffalo, but would not use one on hippo or elephant, unless a brain shot was possible and I didn't have my .470 Capstick.
6) I don't care if you stop fantasizing or not. I'd just rather you didn't share your fantasy with me again and again, and try to convince me that it's reality. And this is the first time you have admitted the lever-action is NOT a DGR, while I and several others here agree that it COULD do the job under ideal conditions (broadside shot, undisturbed buffalo, proper bullets, capable shooter, proper bullet placement, etc.)
7) Hunting DG with a bow, handgun, single-shot rifle, or muzzleloader is the province of experts and people who accept the limitations of their tool, and accept the possibility that a PH will have to shoot.
8) BTW, lots of DG has been killed by inadequate rifles, cartridges, and bullets. That doesn't mean we approve of or endorse them. Again, if you are all so sure, why don't you go over to Africa and hunt dangerous game, instead of just talking about it?
9) The difference in attitude is glaring. The "been there, done that" crowd wants the "never been, never will" crowd to pony up and prove their claims, personally. The difference in perspective is glaring, too; we've faced dangerous game, and you haven't.

George

GeorgeS, I guess you forgot to say: "I know I'm right all the time, I'm just glad there are those who aren't."

I'm still going to take my .375 H&H on the Cape Buffalo hunt.

Jackfish,

I didn't forget to say anything. I don't consider myself a "know-it-all" nor do I believe that I am always right.

However, I appear to be correct about the unwillingness of the lever-action-as-DGR proponents who post here and at MT to put their money where their mouth is and go hunt thick-skinned dangerous game with a lever-action. None seem prepared to do so anytime soon, nor have I been able to locate a thread there where anyone discusses preparations for a lever-action DG hunt. Do they lack the means or just the courage of their convictions?

If you're so sure the lever-action will work, why won't you use one if and when you hunt Cape buffalo?

George

George, you know I was kidding. I don't think I need to repeat what I have written, which is not reflected in your last post.

As previously stated, I have another inadequate rifle I plan on using.

HI,

I am getting a 50-110 from MR. Clay as I feel I can hunt anything within a 150 yards or maybe even up to 200 yards, maybe. If I ever went to Africa to hunt BUFF, I would use this gun as long as I am confident in its reliability.I however would use a 416, 404 or bigger if I were a PH.The job of killing a BUFF with a 525 grain bullet at 2,200 is not a problem,it will.I think a bolt action with a 416, 404 or bigger is far more versatile if I had to shoot out at longer ranges.MR. H. Johnson hunted bear in the thick Alaskan brush for years with his 50 Alaskan and never had a problem. And big bears in thick cover that move with lightning speed have to rate up there with big BUFFs, I would think. This is just my two cents. Thanks,Kev

Jackfish,

Actually, I didn't know you were kidding.

You think the .45-70 w/modern loads is adequate, but you prefer to use a .375H&H. At this rate, we'll never see enough Cape buffalo hunted with lever-actions to prove anything!

At least Kev and JNC91 are committed. Right, guys?

George

I'm committed but I'm afraid my lever action buff gun will be a 450/110 and not a 45/70.
Jeff

George, you used a winking graemlin, that means you jest. Same here. I never asked my PH if I could use my Marlin 1895 45-70, I am going to Africa after all. Doesn't mean I don't think it can't do the job, just means I have something better suited to the task as inadequate as it may be also.

JNC91, I ask MR. Sundles that question on Marlin talk and he informed me if he were to hunt a big game, dangerous game he would go for the 50-110. He said he likes the 45-110, as it is just the 50-110 neck down to a 45 cal.I think either would work without a problem,if these bullets were coming from a bolt action no one would even question it. Thanks,Kev

JNC,

Close enough for our exercise. Actually, the stouter the cartridge, the better the test of the
lever-action platform.

Jackfish,

Oh, I don't care what these old fossils say , the .375 (and, according to some, the 9.3x62) are
adequate for a hunting client to use on Cape buffalo. Of course, it pales badly in comparison to
one of the big .458s or .470s for hunting thick-skinned game or as a stopper.

George

[ 06-19-2002, 03:24: Message edited by: GeorgeS ]

GEORGE, yes I am, I am sure spending the bucks for this project. And not if, but when I can get a hold of the green I would go to Africa to hunt.I will retire in about 5.5 years and will move to Alaska, I then would plan on one trip a year to Africe.I would bring my 50-110 lever win86, but I would also bring my 416, either a REM or Dakota have not made my mind up yet, with me for sure.I would feel that should cover it, right now making a big push on a few custom guns and a 500 mag,linebaugh hand gun, just cost so much money.I guess it is like a addiction just must have them. Thanks,Kev

Kev,

I don't know why you'd want to retire from a cushy job like yours just to move to Alaska to fish and hunt all the time!

What are you going to do with the .416 when you have a .50-110?

If you spend all your money on guns, you won't have enough to hunt Cape buffalo with!

George

500grains,

I did not mean to sound like I was attacking you. I was only pointing out a problem with your section density requirement. I mean it is a problem unless you feel the 505 Gibbs is insufficient buffalo medicine. FYI, the .3 SD requirement came from the military of the late 19th century. The Nitro "big bores" came out at the same time the military was changing to the small bore smokeless rifles (.3 and 8mm bores). These so called small bore smokeless military calibers were loaded with heavy for caliber bullets by todays standards (around 220 grains) and were noted for their superior penetration compared to the old 45 caliber soft lead paper patched bullets. The real reason that penetration was better had more to do with the jacketed bullet construction of the new small bore smokeless round than the section density.
If you do not believe me the section density of the vaunted 8 bore is only around .25 and the mighty 4 bore only has a section density of .24! That is about the same as a 150 gr .308. Hey that is the current military bullet weight isn't it. Coincidence you think?

The same reasoning was used for the first nitro express cartridges. Thus most NE rounds have bullet weights which provide for a SD of .3 to .32. In reality it has been proven that bullet construction will have a far greater impact on penetration than mere bullet mass.

Regarding the action strength thread. I assure you my friend that not all mauser and derivatives are as strong as you think. There are considerable strength differences among the various bolt actions (even among various mausers) as there are among the various double rifles. As I indicated in those calculations some as minute as the radius of the fillet between standing breech and the action bars can have a HUGE impact on stresses.

Todd E

[ 06-19-2002, 04:37: Message edited by: Todd E ]

HI,

George, this is a problem spending to much money on guns leaves little or none to hunt with. I am going to get what I need this year, as far as the guns and then I will be ready.The 416 will go out where the 50-110 ends,just in case I need to reach out and touch someone or thing. Thanks,Kev

Kev,
I read that post on MT. I chose the 450/110 because it saves the expense of a new barrel. What can I say I'm a cheapskate.

I'll spend the money I saved on bullets, powder and brass.

[ 06-19-2002, 06:18: Message edited by: jnc91 ]

Originally posted by 500grains:
There is a definite difference between a client gun used to perform a stunt, and a DGR.

Don't say this to George, he used a 375 on his buff, and it's no 40 cal. He certainly was a client, I'm sure of it. Dang stunt hunter, any way.

If I post a pic here of a buffalo shot with a 25-20, does that make it a DGR?

I'd like to see this pic. Cause me thinks it is! I want one now, cause its been proven, by golly. ~~~Suluuq