In the latest "Sports Afield"--Doctari-- Kevin Robertson gave Milo and Buzz a shout out about their self-imposed buffalo program stressing shooting old dagga boys and not hyper-sized youngsters and reducing their quota. High and well-deserved praise to a class outfit.

Dick

I can personally attest to that. I passed a soft 47-48 to shoot a mature 37. I vividly remember Buzz saying,"Don't shoot the big one. He is soft."

I've said many times and will say it again, Buzz and Myles run a first class outfit!

Yep. CMS practices what they preach. Saw some nice wide soft boss as well. Hard boss only. Comendable.

Jeff

[QUOTE I vividly remember Buzz saying,"Don't shoot the big one. He is soft."[/QUOTE]

I thought that was when Richie and me walked by. Just sayin...

Jeff

Who is shooting soft bossed bulls these days?

Doctari mentioned that on "some Website" someone posted a picture of a big soft-bossed bull and a lot of the guys, but not all, said "I'd shoot it in a heart beat...." Sounds very familiar,

quote:

Originally posted by R. Gunn:
Doctari mentioned that on "some Website" someone posted a picture of a big soft-bossed bull and a lot of the guys, but not all, said "I'd shoot it in a heart beat...." Sounds very familiar,

Are we now dictating the age of Buffalo and if so what is accepted age requirement?

They have to have a black nose...sorry couldn't help myself.

Jeff

I am 79+ years of age and made my last safari and glad I made it before all these restrictions became the rule to hunt by. Before I started my first of 8 safaris I told the PH I was not after trophies or records ( In 8 safaris I have brought back 1 zebra rug and the Tusks from my last Elephant hunt) I just wanted nice representative animals, and that is exactly what I got and I have been very happy with the outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
They have to have a black nose...sorry couldn't help myself.

Jeff

Old thread about soft boss buff.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6911043191

Doctari states it in his books, and Buzz and Miles practice it. We shouldn't be shooting bulls that are in prime breeding age. 6years to about 9. Give them a chance to pass on their genes. When I hunted in 2012 with CM we walked away from 9 year old bulls every day. That's the way I prefere it. He doesn't have to be a 40inch bull,or even a solid boss, just fully mature, and past his prime.

Bob

You are not exactly right with your ages, venda axe. In areas like the Zambezi Valley bull buffalo are usually solid bossed and mature enough to be breeders by sometime in their 8 th year. Such times are stressful for bulls because they usually graze at the back of the herd on already trampled, poorer quality grass. This plus having to spend lots of time on 'guard duty' and fending off challengers eventually leads to a loss in their body condition and consequently strength. When their condition drops too much they loose their physical dominance. When this happens they usually leave the herds to join up with bachelor groups. Such times are their R&R period where they regain their body condition and strength so as to be able to rejoin the breeding herds by fighting for a position of breeding dominance. It is for these reasons why bachelor herds can contain not only 'dagga boys' but also bulls of breeding age. The continual cycle of breeding bulls rotating in and out of the breeding herds continues until such bulls are usually in their 11 th year. 11 yr old bulls have a distinct 'look' with worn down horn tips and an absolutely solid boss. The ears are usually ragged and tatty and the face often has white hairless patches. Very few bulls older than 11 are still breeders. For obvious reasons these are the ones that should be sport hunted and we now know pretty well just what such bulls look like. In my next Sports Afield article I'll explain how the first molar teeth of sport hunted bull buffalo are being used to accurately determine their age. When coupled with good trophy photos a library of known age buffalo can quickly be built up. Sport hunting buffalo bulls 12 yrs old and older has no effect on breeding herd dynamics. These bulls have had the chance to pass their genes on and the only effect such activities have is that of denying the lions and hyena's an easy meal!

Agree 100% with you Doc

This is why we have brought in place a strict 12 year + protocol into all buffalo hunting in the APNR - (Timbavati, Klaserie Umbabat and Baluli)

at the end of each hunting season all skulls are aged and we learn from any mistakes made,

this new practice has brought down our average trophy size from around 44" to just over 41" on our Trophy Buffalo Hunts

reg


JK

Hi jkhunter.

Please drop me an e-mail at doctari505@gmail.com

I would like to chat to you 'offline'.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Agree 100% with you Doc

This is why we have brought in place a strict 12 year + protocol into all buffalo hunting in the APNR - (Timbavati, Klaserie Umbabat and Baluli)

at the end of each hunting season all skulls are aged and we learn from any mistakes made,

this new practice has temporarily brought down our average trophy size from around 44" to just over 41" on our Trophy Buffalo Hunts

reg


JK

I've edited your posting a bit!

Just wait a few years and the average trophy size will get back to 44" again - and then it will go even bigger! But it will take quite a few years! So, meantime, just stick to the good 12+ YO rule!

This whole situation would be helped if SCI and DSC changed their scoring methods. Why don't they?

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
This whole situation would be helped if SCI and DSC changed their scoring methods. Why don't they?

WHY DON'T THEY? Simple: Because then some SCI bigwig will no longer have top, or some other high ranking, place with a very wide soft boss buff that he shot long ago!

I will stick my nose in and probably get told off

First hats off to Buzz and his crew for shooting only old buffalo bulls.

Second, I hope we do not get into the silly lion age thing with buffalo.

Third, I suspect that Buzz has many old bulls on his concession, so he does have the choice of what to shoot.

I know we did when we hunted Zimbabwe.

Fourth, this is not going to happen once all the old bulls are shot.

It will be like in Tanzania nowadays. One has to look long and hard to find an old buffalo bull.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I will stick my nose in and probably get told off

First hats off to Buzz and his crew for shooting only old buffalo bulls.

Second, I hope we do not get into the silly lion age thing with buffalo.

Third, I suspect that Buzz has many old bulls on his concession, so he does have the choice of what to shoot.

I know we did when we hunted Zimbabwe.

Fourth, this is not going to happen once all the old bulls are shot. It will be like in Tanzania nowadays. One has to look long and hard to find an old buffalo bull.

That's certainly the case if young or middle aged bulls are continually shot. Reason being that if you kill them young, they will never have the chance to grow to be old in the first place. But, if only old bulls are shot, leaving the youngsters, you'll have a continuous supply of old bulls as they age.

I am afraid, at least in Zimbabwe, that it is more complicated that simply deciding to shoot the really old bulls. A quota is issued. If the quota is not shot, a bill is presented to the safari company for the balance. Some of the quotas are very high, too high IMHO. Given the money involved, economics wins.

Some might recall Buzz posting about quota reduction in their area. This is the exact reason.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Some of the quotas are very high, too high IMHO.

You are not alone Larry.

No wonder last year in November I was told shoot more buffs ( ended it up with three and all old hard boss bulls). I'm glad PH didn't get stuck with them and paying for them

From what I have read, bulls with a soft boss look at you more like "Buddy can you spare a dime", than like you owe them money.

With that in mind, I wouldn't shoot one with a soft boss either.

WHY DON'T THEY? Simple: Because then some SCI bigwig will no longer have top, or some other high ranking, place with a very wide soft boss buff that he shot long ago![/QUOTE]

I don't know any "SCI bigwig" that wants to do anything to hamper constructive conservation efforts. Back off.

Pancho - Those that make this claim don't actually know any bigwigs at SCI who would do this. They just want to bash SCI. It's just what some do here on AR, so just have to consider the source and move on.

Larry Sellers
SCI (International) Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Pancho:
WHY DON'T THEY? Simple: Because then some SCI bigwig will no longer have top, or some other high ranking, place with a very wide soft boss buff that he shot long ago!

I don't know any "SCI bigwig" that wants to do anything to hamper constructive conservation efforts. Back off.[/QUOTE]

Larry,

How about those outfitters in South Africa who specialize in sourcing Top 5 SCI trophies that have been captured and made available for those "trophy" collectors to add to their names in the SCI Record Book?

Why doesn't SCI stop this practice instead of turning a blind eye to it?

All I did is asked a few questions of certain outfitters in South Africa and got this information.

SCI might get some credibility once they start doing something about shady outfitters and their practices.

Gentleman, the soft boss theory is flawed! Though it can be a guide to age it is not a sure thing without other criteria. Many cape buffalo die of old age and never close the gap between the horn bosses.

In that case the hard boss may well be there, but not closed, but still be an old bull. If the boss is not closed, before turning him down, look for a bald face around the eyes, and the area below the boss or bosses, bald between the bosses with no hair there. If his skin being wrinkled around his hind quarters, and just under where his neck meets his chest, along with horn tips being blunted. Those are all indications of a very old bull.

Seeing a mount on the wall of some guy’s trophy room with a gap between the boses is not a reason to claim he has shot a young bull. Taxidermists tend to stretch the skin tight over the manikin the dye used in the process of the finishing of the cape and the blacking of the horns can give the idea that the mount is of a young bull when, in fact, he is not young at all.

This critiquing of others mounts is one reason many do not post pictures of their trophy rooms. They know at least half the people commenting on their trophies simply do not know what they are talking about!
...................................................................Hold your fire till I dig my foxhole!
......................

The issue of a gap in the horns is not an indication that the animal is young; more importantly that the bosses be solid.

Some are closed as tight as a crab's asshole and others leave an inch-wide gap - and IMO basically related to genetics.

As an example, take a moment to look at some of JKHunter's Timbavati dagga boys for proof.

Those buffalo are certainly not young yet show a prominent, hairless gap.

If he were to show some more of his most recent trophy (preferably without the Rolls Royce) I would bet a pinch to a pound of the brown stuff that it too has the proverbial gap.

Will Post some tomorrow Fujotupu

reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Larry,

How about those outfitters in South Africa who specialize in sourcing Top 5 SCI trophies that have been captured and made available for those "trophy" collectors to add to their names in the SCI Record Book?

Why doesn't SCI stop this practice instead of turning a blind eye to it?

All I did is asked a few questions of certain outfitters in South Africa and got this information.

SCI might get some credibility once they start doing something about shady outfitters and their practices.

100% true and should be stomped out

I shot an old warrior in the Zambezi delta in 2006. The photo does not show well how old, balding and scarred up he was, but the point is that in that particular are (Mahimba concession) the bosses never really close.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=941102155#941102155
I guess i just don't get the whole record book thing. I have never yet entered an animal, but would do so if it helped an outfitter.

Mac,

Soft Bossed and not closing the gap on a buff are two different things entirely. The gap, or lack of is driven by genetics with age playing a factor. The "hardness" or "softness" of the boss is driven purely by age!

Fujotupu is spot on with this one!

Mac, focus on the very front bottom part of the boss. If that area is hard, he's hard bossed. If not, there will appear to be an inverted "V" that is not filled in by horn. This can occur with our without a gap between the horns.

Looking back at all the buffalo we have shot, there have been so many variations.

We have seen some that have an incredibly wide and thick boss that covers the whole head like a crown.

We have seen many that are old but have a large gap between the horns where there is no boss.

We have seen some that have wide but narrow horns. Looks almost like a cow horns as they were so thin.

We have seen some that have both the boss and horns worn so smooth makes one imagines them from a different species.

There are so many varieties out there if one looks for them.

Three bulls shot together.

Notice how different their bosses are.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mac,

Soft Bossed and not closing the gap on a buff are two different things entirely. The gap, or lack of is driven by genetics with age playing a factor. The "hardness" or "softness" of the boss is driven purely by age!

Fujotupu is spot on with this one!

Mac, focus on the very front bottom part of the boss. If that area is hard, he's hard bossed. If not, there will appear to be an inverted "V" that is not filled in by horn. This can occur with our without a gap between the horns.

You are correct! We all understand that what boss there is should be hard, that is a given, but many never even look farther when they see a separation between the horns. That was what I was referring to below.

quote:

Many cape buffalo die of old age and never close the gap between the horn bosses.
In that case the hard boss may well be there, but not closed, but still be an old bull. If the boss is not closed, before turning him down, look for a bald face around the eyes, and the area below the boss or bosses, bald between the bosses with no hair there. If his skin being wrinkled around his hind quarters, and just under where his neck meets his chest, along with horn tips being blunted. Those are all indications of a very old bull.

……………………………………………………….....................................................

All three of those look like good hard bossed bulls Saeed.

No doubt.