Ivan
welcome to the hens nest land of arm chair cowboys

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

Agreed 110%.

Michael

michael

you know i like your work, but to endorse rip's butterfly floating argument, is not your usual way of achiving or endorsing evidence.

i think that were the post that ivan were talking about.

blaming the bullet of only penetrating 18" of soft tissue, is a bit of a obama reach of the facts, is it not ?

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Shootaway,

The path by which to prove a primer issue can be to shoot a cartridge that his mis fired "twice". If it has a primer indent from the first go around and did not discharge. Hit it again. If it still does not fire, I would not rule out the primer. It have tried this quite a few times when I experienced this situation and never had a cartridge discharge so I assumed a heavy plate on the back of the primer. Chambering a new cartridge afterwards firing never repeated the issue in my experiences so I always assumed it was a primer issue. That logic is pretty sound.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Eyedoc,

Hornady being the cartridge mfg if responsible for the mishap however I do not believe Hornady makes primers. They source them elsewhere. Could be a Fed 215 as they seem the most popular for this type cartridge. Win and Remington probably use their own primers but I bet Hornady, Norma, and all the custom mfg buy them from someone else.
I have probably had 6 misfires with rifle primers over my life and quite a few with shotgun shells.
It is very unfortunate when your life is on the line or you are counting on the shot of a lifetime.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

I've had dozens of misfires from rifles and shotguns and not one was due to a primer or ammo.

I had a firing pin spring assembly replaced with a faulty one that would misfire one in every 20 or so rds.Every time I would keep the misfired round and retry it again in another rifle and it still wouldn't fire.I think the firing pin protrusion will not be enough to get at the primer a second time.

quote:

Sorry ddrhook, I am no armchair cowboy. Wrong.

Michael

I did not name names sorry if you took offence! we have some great minds on this forum I.E. ph's, gunsmiths, outfitters, people with life times of experience in the field. But we have a abundance of BS artist to and a few who just love to here themselves pontificate.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:

quote:

Sorry ddrhook, I am no armchair cowboy. Wrong.

Michael

I did not name names sorry if you took offence! we have some great minds on this forum I.E. ph's, gunsmiths, outfitters, people with life times of experience in the field. But we have a abundance of BS artist to and a few who just love to here themselves pontificate.

There are people with a lifetime of experience in doing things the wrong way.

great story...excellent hunt...congratulations!

ignore list is a better place

I guess those 37,000 elephants shot on the zim culls between 1981 and 1993 hadn't read the book that stated they were not meant to die instantly when brain shot with pointed military AP bullets...Or round nosed Kynock...or round nosed A Square...A thousand or so of them fell to the flat nosed copper bullets I made up for the departmental .404 and .425 rifles we couldn't get ammo for and Art made some experiments with flat nosed solids on the '85 cull before finally settling on his round nosed design for A square ammo...but no Almost all one shot kills and very small sampling of F.N. solids.

Don't get me wrong...I personally think that a flat nosed bullet is less likey to deviate when it hits a curved hard surface like a tusk base or zygomatic arch than a fairly pointed one, BUT...not so much that I would trade it for 1/1000 of an ounce of reliability and I have NEVER seen one of the blunt nosed FMJ's like the old Hornady 500grn .458 bullets or the 9,3 woodleigh ever be turned by anything on an elephant. I have also never had a 9,3 bullet stay in an elephants head, no matter what angle I have fired from.

I have chrono'd some 470 nitro, 500 gr woodleigh solids (Federal premium) out of my Heym 88 @ 2200 FPS.
I do not have a medium that is similar to frontal brain shot on a Elephant but they will consistantly (100%) shoot through a 14" diameter blackjack oak tree. That is a pretty tough test! So do the Hornady DGS's @ 2150 FPS. Never had any type of soft or barnes X make it through.

eezrider

oaks a good back stop my land lady asked me to stop using her cedar tress for back stops It seems they keep falling over opppps

Michael, I could be wrong, but I dont think ddrhook is talking about you.

I know I enjoy your posts.

Getting off the subject at hand but a 14-18" dia tree is great for firewood (split). You put enough holes in one and they die. A year later you have seasoned oak to cut up and burn. I have no shortage of trees this size at my farm.

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
eezrider

oaks a good back stop my land lady asked me to stop using her cedar tress for back stops It seems they keep falling over opppps

I told him I was not talking about him!!!!! just a general statement to Ivan and Micheal took offence!! we have a great group of people on here and I enjoy and learn a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

There are people with a lifetime of experience in doing things the wrong way.

It is nice when someone reccognizes his own limitations! Congratulations!

Ivan,

I shot a large cow at Omay with a 470 double with a frontal shot. The bullet exited behind her ear and we found it lying on the ground in front of her front leg. Bullets sometimes do the strangest things.

465H&H

Not convinced that my rifle was at fault here.Many rounds have gone through the rifle with no problem,and since the misfire quite a few more have gone off just fine.Also the primer was well struck and dimpled well.I am satisfied with what my rifle did.I am not satisfied with what the cartridge did.

I do appreciate input and advice.Thanks for the replies.That was more than I got from Hornady.Not that I wanted anything other than a response.If this was an isolated event or if others reported the same problem was all I was asking.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Not convinced that my rifle was at fault here.Many rounds have gone through the rifle with no problem,and since the misfire quite a few more have gone off just fine.Also the primer was well struck and dimpled well.I am satisfied with what my rifle did.I am not satisfied with what the cartridge did.

I do appreciate input and advice.Thanks for the replies.That was more than I got from Hornady.Not that I wanted anything other than a response.If this was an isolated event or if others reported the same problem was all I was asking.

eyedoc, If you still have the round, I think I would break it down, and check to see if something was amiss with the primer. Dump the powder and see if a couple of hits with the fireing pin can make the primer fire.

I don't think there is much doubt the primer is at fault, but it would be nice to know for sure. If the primer doesn't fire, which I doubt it will I would then kick that primer out of the case and look it over, to see if the priming compound, and/or the anvil are there.

If the priming compound, and the anvil are there seat another primer in the case to see if the case primer pocked is too deep letting the primer slide forward under the strike of fireing pin. If that fires then you can be sure it was the primer. If not I would send all the componants back to Hornady and ask for their diagnosis.

........ Or you could just forget the whole thing and buy another brand. I don't think there is any question that the primer is the culprit however.

You could buy 5000 more rounds of the Hornady ammo, and not ever get another missfireing cartridge IMO! You certainly want to be sure it is not your rifle, but I doubt it is!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

You could buy 5000 more rounds of the Hornady ammo, and not ever get another missfireing cartridge IMO! You certainly want to be sure it is not your rifle, but I doubt it is!

Mac has nailed it in his statement quoted above! Everyone should read it and understand it.

Every manufacturer has had ammo misfire, squib or fail to penetrate. It may never happen to you, but it has happened to me - twice. Both times were in africa and each was a different caliber and maker and both were on DG - hippo and Buff. One was a solid and the other was a soft point; both were with premium bullets.

S#*%t Happens! You need to be prepared to deal with any contingency when hunting DG. Mental preparation, visualization and pre-planning will go a very long way in keeping you alive.

There is a better solid,
the FN solid.
No doubt about it.
Where's JPK?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Ivan,

I shot a large cow at Omay with a 470 double with a frontal shot. The bullet exited behind her ear and we found it lying on the ground in front of her front leg. Bullets sometimes do the strangest things.

465H&H

We had a similar experience with the cow that charged Buzz and I in December. When it charged I shot it twice with the .500 double (frontal shots). When we walked up on the elephant, the cameraman Justin Drainer found one of the .500 slugs laying on the ground. Go figure.

The one elephant I shot had a bullet in the trunk. They found it once we started butchering it. I assumed it came from the finishing shot which was made from the back of the head.

It is a good story Ivan, strange things do happen with bullets.

As far as the rest of the story there is no winning. Michael458 is passionate about what he does and is a been there done that guy. I am proud to be part of the FN crew. I think if people would have read his entire post he did reference the velocity problem twice.

You can kill all the elephants you want with AP rounds or Woodleighs or a 7 by 57. I will use what I feel is best.

While we are looking for crews, where is the lower velocity penetrates better crew?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

There are people with a lifetime of experience in doing things the wrong way.

It is nice when someone reccognizes his own limitations! Congratulations!

I am no exception that's for sure,especially when it comes to more important things.

As to bullets winding up in odd places-I shot an elephant up in the Caprivi two years ago and my side brain shot passed through the skull and exited just behind the ear on the opposite side.After clearing the head it made an angled entry into the ear flap and traveled about 4 inches before coming to rest in the ear. It looked like a little lump in the ear flap and would likely gone undetected as a bullet had I not been carefully examing the wound path.

Three foot of skull did not stop it but a half inch thick ear flap caught it!

the magic bullet it happen in Dallas it can happen anywhere I to have seen bullets do strange things and had a few that you just look at and say whatttttt the f..k .Bullet physics thats what makes our hobby so much fun and thats why we have so many bullets, weights, calibers, case configurations, etc.etc. you have to be a little crazy to love ballistic chartes

my assumption if I may assumpt?? is that the fore mentioned bullet left the barrel upon trigger pull, went bang and nudged the shooter, and some where in the nano seconds that fallowed the fore mentioned bullet hit the fore mention Elephant and the the fore mentioned bullet defied the normal laws of physics and did what it wanted to not what it was suppose too

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
gentlemen ,
i can see that the fns crew are determined to make that the reason for the failure -
fact is , round or flat , if the bullett had had enough muzzle velocity it would have at least marked the bone - THERE WAS NO MARK ON THE BONE -

therefore the bullett travelled through some skin , trunk , nasal cavity and stopped -


the bullett path through the muscle was straight , i actually inserted a cleaning rod before we cut it.

i am convinced that its a muzzle velocity issue , the real point was that it was pretty amazing that the bullett blew out of his trunk - what is the chance of that -

I like FNS's esp. NF's but MV was the problem here...or should I say the lack there of!

They do indeed sometimes do odd things.

Had a client shoot an ostrich a couple of years ago. It went down like it was poleaxed and despite looking at the carcass, the organs and later, the finished skin for some considerable time, we never did find the bullet hole or any damage at all.

It's a complete mystery to me what killed that damn bird.

You scared him to death. when you took your hat off and he saw that wonderful hair cut

Thanks to Ivan and Guy for this post. The comments and discussion are informative.
If I were still a drinking man, and had a number of lagers, I would have a different solution for this situation.
I would propose that using a few assumptions, we could simply explain this as a sneeze. It's a known fact that round nose bullets loose velocity so fast, that you need a delrin tipped boat tail to shoot beyond 25 yards. It is also a known fact that the air velocity in the trunk must be much faster than exiting air velocity, to carry the snot out of that long appendage. So when Guy was pulling the trigger, the ele was not stopping to look at them, he was beginning a super sneeze. Just as the bullet entered, the sneeze took place. The round nose bullet slowed quickly and reversed direction as it hit that tremendous air flow and exited the trunk as part of the sneeze. See, simple!
Now you see why I quit drinking beer. It's only my fourth cup of coffee, but of course, caffeine doesn't afect me.
Bfly
Thanks again for the post and discussion.

X-years of preparation, XXK US$ invested, going round the globe ect...just to end up Elephant sneezing your own bullet back at you - sounds funny? Me not thinks so - it is bloody pathetic and thankfully not tragic...

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

quote:

It looks like a Merkel to me too. Did they ever say who loaded the cartridge???

lane ,
it was a heym with superior ammo

So is it possible that Superior ammo blew it? In any case it wouldn't be their first time - check this (see last reply) tho it was on the upper scale this time:

http://forums.cabelas.com/arch...ndex.php/t-3653.html

"check this (see last reply) tho it was on the upper scale this time"

Oh oh,the MS bashers will awaken now.

quote:

Originally posted by mouse93:
So is it possible that Superior ammo blew it? In any case it wouldn't be their first time - check this (see last reply) tho it was on the upper scale this time:

http://forums.cabelas.com/arch...ndex.php/t-3653.html

Mouse93, I certainly think that the fault was the ammo in this case, and it is certainly possible that Superior is at fault since they loaded the ammo.

Having said that, I will add that there is no ammo maker in the world that has never had a bad cartridge slip through the cracks. Superior, like most of the custom ammo crafters, once they get well known their orders get heavy right before the hunting seasons. Because of the volume going up the production must follow. The larger the volume, and short time to fill it, the chance of a miss-load goes up as well.

I don't know if the ammo from Superior, or any other custm ammo crafters, for thet matter, weighes every load, or if they depend on metering the loads from a powder measure, and I suspect the latter. In this case the chance goes up for a short load when powder measures are used only instead of weighing the powder on a scale!

In the case of the elephant snorting the bullet out of his long nose, I think we can discount the primer being the culprit, and we have had comformation that the bullet traveled in a straight line stopping at the nasal bone that only leaves the load volume to account for the lower power.

IMO the other example offered in this thread of the cartridge not fireing at all,is the fault of the primer. The primer was dented, and even tried again, and still failed to fire.

I have had squib loads on other occasions with factory ammo. However, I must say that most were in early Winchester ammo for the brand new cartridge and rifle chambered for 458 Win Mag.before I could get dies for that cartridge. That was found to be the fault of the case capacity, and the crushed powder load in that small case to try to attain the advertized velocity with a 500 gr bullet and still fit in a short action. Not only aggravating, but damn dangerous if you were useing that rifle for it's intended purpose!

So what I'm saying is no ammo crafter is immune from haveing an occasional "FAIL TO FIRE" or a "FAIL TO PENETRATE" cartridge slipping through the cracks and getting in front of an elephant at spitting distance.
The best hedge against this is, IMO, load your own, and be very careful, because your butt is the main one that is on the line!

............................

What worries me most is having a squib load with bolt rifle and the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. You may not have time to look down the barrel for a stuck bullet. Another plus for the double rifle. I have never had it happen with a rifle but have with pistols.
465H&H

When I was very young, my father shot some old, old shotgun shells on a goose hunt. One of the buffers (do not think they had wads on 30-40's vintage shotguns shells did not clear the barrel. The next shot took off the end of the barrel on an old 870. No one was hurt but was an eye opener!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
What worries me most is having a squib load with bolt rifle and the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. You may not have time to look down the barrel for a stuck bullet. Another plus for the double rifle. I have never had it happen with a rifle but have with pistols.
465H&H

MacD I hear you - trust me it would be my last to badmouth Superior guys - after all there are wast numbers of very satisfied customers with piles of very dead animals standing behind them, I am also aware of a lot PH's picking their loads on the shows...they sure offered a hand to those needed.

Failure of a shot like this just clearly shows on how thin ice this kind of trade is hanging...what? - 2 maybe 3 failures like that and I guess they may just close the business - at least as far as DG is concerned...wander how ggorney is feeling after this one and where he will order his next batch of DG ammo? Yes it is a pitty and I guess they should know better. But at the end I am the last one to teach them how to run their business - I can only wish them good luck! If luck has anything to do with it?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The best hedge against this is, IMO, load your own, and be very careful, because your butt is the main one that is on the line!

............................

Now, this nags the main core of "do your own reloads" doesn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
What worries me most is having a squib load with bolt rifle and the bullet gets stuck in the barrel. You may not have time to look down the barrel for a stuck bullet. Another plus for the double rifle. I have never had it happen with a rifle but have with pistols.
465H&H

465H&H I never had a sqib load that was slow enough to let the bullet stop in the barrel. However, I suspect that even if you did with a big rifle the barrel and expanded case would retain pressure so that when you opened the bolt you would be aware of something being amiss. I base that opinion on a happening when I was a 14 yr old kid, and a friend of mine was shooting my single shot mod 67 win .22lr bolt rifle. He somehow got mud packed in the muzzle of the rifle, and when he fired it again it simply made a thuding sound. When he opened the bolt it poped like a real shot when the gas escaped. The bullet had stopped about half way down the barrel, and the barrel was swollen at that point. I'm very glad the rifle held the pressure but if we had not known, and chambered another round and fried it again the barrel would probably have burst. If it had been a big bore it most likely would have burst on the first shot. That however, would be intirely different with a squib load, and I see what you mean about chambering another round on top of a bullet already in the barrel. I think you would be introuble either way with a bolt rifle, simply because you couldn't fire another shot from that rifle no matter which way it happened, and I agree that is just one more plus in favor of the double rifle!