I think if there had been anything wrong with the ammunition,the shooter would have felt the decrease in recoil,hangfire etc...I would suspect eroded rifling in one of the bores or a bullet that veered of course(which I don't know much about).

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think if there had been anything wrong with the ammunition,the shooter would have felt the decrease in recoil,hangfire etc...I would suspect eroded rifling in one of the bores or a bullet that veered of course(which I don't know much about).

And I would suspect that you forgot to take your medication before posting today. The depth of idiocy in that post are of the grandest proportions.

...thus the ignore feature....

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I think if there had been anything wrong with the ammunition,the shooter would have felt the decrease in recoil,hangfire etc...I would suspect eroded rifling in one of the bores or a bullet that veered of course(which I don't know much about).

Just when I thought that Shootaways posts in the last little bit were getting a little better......now this?

Holy shit-potz

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

quote:

"I grabbed the guy by the shirt......"

Careful Mate, that sort of behavior drives some people on this forum nuts.

applogies to all , this is what it should have read ,
"gently and very respectfully having asked prior if it was okay ,and having it in writing that it would not offend him , i took the gentleman by the shirt utilising a pre- arranged signal for him to follow me into where i percieved was the best place to make the shot" -

all better now ?????

That's much better Sir.

I am sure you wouldn't want to ruffle anyone's fluffy little panties.

BTW, if I failed to respond to to your more subtle way of getting me to the correct position, you have my permission to drag me by the ear.


I will not be offended.

Ivan,

Great inside information here. I felt like I was with you on this adventure....Well done. DAN

If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

The RNS could be the problem in some cases, but according to Ivan the bullet went srteight, and hit the nasal bone but didn't have enough power left to even mark the bone! I would still bet on a short powder charge! I simply do not trust powder measures. Hand weighing every charge is the only way IMO!

What ever the reason it would be a prudant move to check, and double check your loading when hunting dangerous game!

Somehow I don't think I would notice a difference in recoil or report from a round when shooting a 70 pound bull elephant from 20 yards, but then I'm not Shootaway.

I think Mr. Murphy just made his unscheduled appearance on barrel one. 18" of penetration you would think would get the job done.

Then the proper planning prevents problems of barrel two.

Thats why the double is what it is right?

But a wild story. Congratulaions on a great bull and good shooting too. You always remember the hard ones and the weird ones.

quote:

The RNS could be the problem in some cases, but according to Ivan the bullet went srteight, and hit the nasal bone but didn't have enough power left to even mark the bone!

thats correct - the same shot i have seen excecuted countless times successfully and we have taken the bullett out of the neck - easily 5 feet of penetration -

I can't speak about solid penetration as I know nothing about it,but can tell you that a fully loaded 458wm,shot from a poor bore,can drop at least 2 feet vertically in as little as 50 yds-and you will not notice from the recoil.IMO,it seems unlikely that a responsible DG ammunition manufacturer would load a DG round with less powder.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can't speak about solid penetration as I know nothing about it,but can tell you that a fully loaded 458wm,shot from a poor bore,can drop at least 2 feet vertically in as little as 50 yds-and you will not notice from the recoil.IMO,it seems unlikely that a responsible DG ammunition manufacturer would load a DG round with less powder.

shootaway, if we were discussing a 100 year old double rifle here you might have something wit one side being worn out of erroded. However the rifle we are talking about in tnis case is a Heym 470NE That is almost new compared to anything that would be erroded. I would doubt the rifle has had more than 200 rounds through it, if that many. I think you can discount any barrel problem, and that leaves the ammo! Simply because a good firm did the ammo doesn't make them immune to a mistake, thaey are very good but the best ammo makers in the world have occasional squibbs. The 458 Win Mag ammo you are useing as an example were notorious for squibb loads some years ago. So many that it almost ruined the 458 Win Mag cartridge!

Some folks been sniffing too much muzzle blast up in here.

NOT YOU, MAC!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I can't speak about solid penetration as I know nothing about it,but can tell you that a fully loaded 458wm,shot from a poor bore,can drop at least 2 feet vertically in as little as 50 yds-and you will not notice from the recoil.IMO,it seems unlikely that a responsible DG ammunition manufacturer would load a DG round with less powder.

shootaway, if we were discussing a 100 year old double rifle here you might have something wit one side being worn out of erroded. However the rifle we are talking about in tnis case is a Heym 470NE That is almost new compared to anything that would be erroded. I would doubt the rifle has had more than 200 rounds through it, if that many. I think you can discount any barrel problem, and that leaves the ammo! Simply because a good firm did the ammo doesn't make them immune to a mistake, thaey are very good but the best ammo makers in the world have occasional squibbs. The 458 Win Mag ammo you are useing as an example were notorious for squibb loads some years ago. So many that it almost ruined the 458 Win Mag cartridge!

It depends on the quality of the bore to begin.I am not familiar with Heym bores but both bores on my CZ's were gone by 200 rds.The bore on my Ruger is still accurate at 2000rds.I guess if a manufacturer can screw up with ammunition,they can do the same with making a barrel.

quote:

but both bores on my CZ's were gone by 200 rds.The bore on my Ruger is still accurate at 2000rds.I guess if a manufacturer can screw up with ammunition,they can do the same with making a barrel.

I call BS on that. I am no fan of the new CZ rifles but they are the most common rifle in Africa and I have seen lots of Lotts with alot more ammo through them than that! Even the crappy Interarms Mark X would survive 500 rounds of A square ammo before the rifling wore to the extent of the bullet being unstable on exit or velocity falling off.

NB. a ding on the muzzel of a rifle can cause the bullet to be slightly unstable- it shows up on a paper target as a hole that isn't perfectly round. On elephants it shows up as very poor penetration. You don't notice it when using a soft point becuase the bullet soon expands to form a wound channel bigger than the bullet but with sollids the wobbling back end apparently causes alot of drag and penetration suffers.

A Heym 88 is a well thought out gun. I suspect the owner / Hunter put in some practice prior to the hunt. He should have noticed any effects from barrel to barrel on the range if they existed. Especially shooting at 50 yards, perhaps 25 yards if there were say 500 FPS difference in velocity.
I would contend a short charged cartridge. It is not a perfect world! The hunter should be commended with his fast follow up.
Like a lot of folks on this forum; some obviously perfectionist; Loading your own cartridges and perfecting your loads is just one of the many pieces of the puzzle so enjoyable for the preparation of your adventure.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

quote:

but both bores on my CZ's were gone by 200 rds.The bore on my Ruger is still accurate at 2000rds.I guess if a manufacturer can screw up with ammunition,they can do the same with making a barrel.

I call BS on that. I am no fan of the new CZ rifles but they are the most common rifle in Africa and I have seen lots of Lotts with alot more ammo through them than that! Even the crappy Interarms Mark X would survive 500 rounds of A square ammo before the rifling wore to the extent of the bullet being unstable on exit or velocity falling off.

NB. a ding on the muzzel of a rifle can cause the bullet to be slightly unstable- it shows up on a paper target as a hole that isn't perfectly round. On elephants it shows up as very poor penetration. You don't notice it when using a soft point becuase the bullet soon expands to form a wound channel bigger than the bullet but with sollids the wobbling back end apparently causes alot of drag and penetration suffers.

So,you aknowledge that there are rifle bores that will only go 500-with bronze solids???

Guy Gorney here - Ivan's client and friend in this tale. For what is worth I can tell what went through my mind....
Plenty of time to line up the shot, very comfortable and confident, he's stopped moving and I squeeze.
He does not fall, what the heck! The shot looked and felt good.
Focus....line up the next shot....squeezing as he turns....he falls...good but why didn't that first shot take him....
When I looked at the video tape we measure the time between shots - 1.7 seconds. It felt like 5 times that long!
I can't tell you how unhappy I was that the first shot did not take him down - having endlessly thought about shot placement, practicing, 'seeing' the brain in my minds eye, etc I just figured that I messed up but didn't know what I had done wrong. I was very happy with shot number 2.
Every trip has been an adventure and I learn more each time. My check list keep getting longer - thanks for some of the ideas posted here.
Hunting a great Bots bull with Ivan is one of my life's great thrills....until the next one.

Guy,
Congrats on a fantastic hunt!! Hope you have many more.

quote:

Originally posted by TexKD:
[QUOTE]I think Mr. Murphy just made his unscheduled appearance on barrel one. 18" of penetration you would think would get the job done.

It takes considerably more than 18" of penetration to reach the brain of a big bull ele with a frontal brain shot. In fact with most angles that will only reach the nasal bone, exactly what it did in this case if I read Ivan's description correctly!

quote:

Then the proper planning prevents problems of barrel two.

Thats why the double is what it is right?

You are correct that second barrel is the best insurance policy you can buy!

quote:

But a wild story. Congratulaions on a great bull and good shooting too. You always remember the hard ones and the weird ones.

I agree that was a great story, and as you say you may shoot 100 Bulls , and the ones you remember the clearest are the ones that come real close ot being the last one, or the ones hard fought!

Again congratulations to Ivan and Mr. Gorney, and thanks for shareing it with us old worn out shut-ins!

quote:

applogies to all , this is what it should have read ,
"gently and very respectfully having asked prior if it was okay ,and having it in writing that it would not offend him , i took the gentleman by the shirt utilising a pre- arranged signal for him to follow me into where i percieved was the best place to make the shot" -

all better now ?????

Ivan, I would be honored for you to grab my shirt and move me into proper position to shoot a Bull like that.

Any time the urge to grab a shirt comes upon you feel free to PM.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

Well RIP - cant agree more, just my thoughts..

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

Well RIP - cant agree more, just my thoughts..

Dr. Buffalo:
Great minds think alike.
It is appalling that despite present day enlightenment, Round Nose solids are still legal for elephant hunting.
There are zero feeding issues with FN solids in double rifles!
No excuses!!!

Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

Perhaps a letter sent directly to Steve Hornady will do the trick! I would think so. That is simply amazing that they would not respond.

Lest we forget Brian Marsh - quote:

"I had the odd few even with my .470. The best designed bullet will sometimes deflect on striking bone - particularly when fired from close range before it has had time to stabilize"

then Sten Cedergren about .470 bullet - which Sten considered inadequate for big bulls in thick bush...quote:

“Shooting elephant cows and young bulls with the .470 was fine, but I soon realized when going after the big bulls in very dense bush, or the close bamboo forests on Mount Kenya and the Aberdares, that I needed something bigger...(bit more penetration perhaps?)"

Mix it with Rip's point and we might have something there...I am not saying anything tho.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Perhaps a letter sent directly to Steve Hornady will do the trick! I would think so. That is simply amazing that they would not respond.

Not Hornady!
It was a Woodleigh. Read further down to Ivan's correction.

mouse93,
Yep, squirrely things happening do include those caused by the old 470 FMJ nose shape.

Does Sten want to stun with near brain misses or what?

Bigger, than .375-caliber is not necessary if the proper FN solid is used well.
Just ask Saeed.
He even makes FN solids for his 700 Nitro Express.
But he goes a'hunting with his .375, and quite successfully too!

RIP: I was commenting on eyedoc's recent experience with a Hornady solid in Australia, as contained in the post just above mine. Sorry if there was any confusion with Ivan's comments.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

That's likely not caused by the ammo.If it's a bolt action rifle,a Wolfe striker spring can prevent this from reoccurring.Check the striker spring retaining pin and the bolt release spring retaining pin for deformity.IMO,most rifles will cause a misfire every once in a while unless the guy who made the action really knew what he was doing or the striker spring mechanism is modified with better parts.If I where Hornady,I would probably not respond either.Customers would be insulted if they were told that there is nothing wrong with the ammo and the issue lies elsewhere.

Eyedoc,

Hornady being the cartridge mfg is responsible for the mishap however I do not believe Hornady makes primers. They source them elsewhere. Could be a Fed 215 as they seem the most popular for this type cartridge. Win and Remington probably use their own primers but I bet Hornady, Norma, and all the custom mfg buy them from someone else.
I have probably had 6 misfires with rifle primers over my life and quite a few with shotgun shells.
It is very unfortunate when your life is on the line or you are counting on the shot of a lifetime.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Eyedoc,

Hornady being the cartridge mfg if responsible for the mishap however I do not believe Hornady makes primers. They source them elsewhere. Could be a Fed 215 as they seem the most popular for this type cartridge. Win and Remington probably use their own primers but I bet Hornady, Norma, and all the custom mfg buy them from someone else.
I have probably had 6 misfires with rifle primers over my life and quite a few with shotgun shells.
It is very unfortunate when your life is on the line or you are counting on the shot of a lifetime.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

I've had dozens of misfires from rifles and shotguns and not one was due to a primer or ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
If the Woodleigh Round Nose FMJ "Solid" was able to pass through 18" of elephant hide and trunk muscle
... as determined by Ivan's post mortem probing,
call it autopsy or necropsy, as either will do ...
Then it was not a squib load or dud powder charge!

Has Nobody suggested that the subject Round Nose Solid (RNS) may simply have been doing what an RNS is want to do?

Well, call me Nobody!!!

An RNS is seriously unreliable compared to a Flat Nose Solid (FNS).
See the "Big Bore Forum" bullet testing threads galore, over the past many years.

No wonder Woodleigh is experimenting with some funny nose shape now.
It's about time!

Thanks to Ivan for presenting evidence of RNS unreliability.
The fans of the RNS will call it an "anecdote."
I would not.

Agreed 110%.

Michael

Sorry guys but I disagree with these statements. You may in fact be right but and it is a big but the evidence doesn't support your take that it was caused from using a RN Woodleigh solid. Read what Ivan said. The bullet penetrated straight for 18" but didn't penetrate the bone, in fact it had slowed so much that the bone wasn't marked. No veering, no tumbling but not enough penetration. That was a velocity problem. I have shot enough of these bullets into elephant heads to know. The trunk isn't that much of a barrier to penetration to stop a full charged FN Woodleigh solid in 18". I doubt that a mono-metal FN solid would have done much if any better at the same velocity.

465H&H

In addition please don't cherry pick what Ivan said to prove your point that RN solids habitualy fail. He also said that he has seen many used before and that they typicaly penetrate well into the neck of elephant on frontal shots and that is exactly my experience. You will find them 6" to 18" into the neck assuming that they don't hit the tusk socket or first two neck vertebrae. FN solids are great bullets but they too have been known to go off course.

465H&H

Once again we find Ivan deep in the jesse
Chasing elephants and whatnot for fun what a mess

'Twere as fun as could be, all could well see
Hunters we'll be let's not race for the tree

All day they'd walk hard, like drawing a card
Stay ready said Ivan, showing fear no regard

A big bull was soon found that made their day
So long as the bull fell not on them but away

A round was sent, and when found was not bent
A curious tale was then told to the gent

A quick brain shot is most nice
Toting double guns, please once, but not thrice

Rolling the dice, it likely won't now be nice To pay the price for missing with that device

And lo, lay the bull low did the quick second
What the first did was in doubt was reckoned

Upon being found, right there on the ground
Lay the story, the bullet and the tale.

A sneeze blew it through, no more it would do
But who are we to complain he was through

Shootaway,

The path by which to prove a primer issue can be to shoot a cartridge that his mis fired "twice". If it has a primer indent from the first go around and did not discharge. Hit it again. If it still does not fire, I would not rule out the primer. It have tried this quite a few times when I experienced this situation and never had a cartridge discharge so I assumed a heavy plate on the back of the primer. Chambering a new cartridge afterwards firing never repeated the issue in my experiences so I always assumed it was a primer issue. That logic is pretty sound.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Eyedoc,

Hornady being the cartridge mfg if responsible for the mishap however I do not believe Hornady makes primers. They source them elsewhere. Could be a Fed 215 as they seem the most popular for this type cartridge. Win and Remington probably use their own primers but I bet Hornady, Norma, and all the custom mfg buy them from someone else.
I have probably had 6 misfires with rifle primers over my life and quite a few with shotgun shells.
It is very unfortunate when your life is on the line or you are counting on the shot of a lifetime.

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Speaking of bullet/cartridge failures; on a recent trip to Australia I got lined up on a nice buffalo and squeezed off a shot.I was rewarded with the snap of firing pin striking primer but nothing more.I ejected the round and chambered another and then got back to the business at hand.

The misfire,when I got a chance to inspect it, showed a firm and centered strike.It simply failed to fire. The cartridge was a Dangerous Game Solid from Hornady,factory loaded 375 H&H.

On return I sent a note to Hornady via their website contact address and asked if they have had any similar reports.I gave them the lot number off the box the shell came from.They did not bother to respond.

So much for customer service at Hornady.And now I know why the are called Dangerous Game Solids.It ramps up the danger factor quite a bit when some of them fail to fire.

Think I may look at a different option for my future hunts.

I've had dozens of misfires from rifles and shotguns and not one was due to a primer or ammo.

I've never reduced a load a few hundred fps.If I recall correctly,my 308 had issues if I would go below 39grs of Varget or vit 540 on a 168gr bullet.My question is would a DG round even fire at all if powder were reduced so much as to cause such a velocity decrease? Would there be enough pressure to ignite the round?

gentlemen ,
i can see that the fns crew are determined to make that the reason for the failure -
fact is , round or flat , if the bullett had had enough muzzle velocity it would have at least marked the bone - THERE WAS NO MARK ON THE BONE -

therefore the bullett travelled through some skin , trunk , nasal cavity and stopped -


the bullett path through the muscle was straight , i actually inserted a cleaning rod before we cut it.

i am convinced that its a muzzle velocity issue , the real point was that it was pretty amazing that the bullett blew out of his trunk - what is the chance of that -