thank you very much.

still dont understand with that letter what is and what is not a canned hunt ...

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
thank you very much.

still dont understand with that letter what is and what is not a canned hunt ...

They wrote a lot without saying much!!

They refer to another document whish apparently sets the standard for captive bread lions.

They made no mention of the other canned trophy hunting industry that is thriving in South Africa.

The one that caters for the demands of Top 10 SCI Trophies.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
thank you very much.

still dont understand with that letter what is and what is not a canned hunt ...

They wrote a lot without saying much!!

They refer to another document whish apparently sets the standard for captive bread lions.

They made no mention of the other canned trophy hunting industry that is thriving in South Africa.

The one that caters for the demands of Top 10 SCI Trophies.

I agree that put and take hunting is an unethical practise and it is condemned by PHASA. The problem is finding and convicting the culprits. You might know who the culprit is, but you need the hard evidence. I have not heard of anybody who knowingly arranged for unethical or illegal activity who will brag about what he did wrong, he will make it sound as if he did everything fairly. I have seen hunt reports that reflects a different story than what really happened. Will those involved ever give the evidence needed, I don't think so, they cover for each other. If you have evidence, pass it on to PHASA

PHASA is doing a lot to clean up our hunting industry, but they can only act against their members and unfortunately you do not have to belong to a professional body to conduct trophy hunting in SA, something that I feel should change, rather sooner than later.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
thank you very much.

still dont understand with that letter what is and what is not a canned hunt ...

They wrote a lot without saying much!!

They refer to another document whish apparently sets the standard for captive bread lions.

They made no mention of the other canned trophy hunting industry that is thriving in South Africa.

The one that caters for the demands of Top 10 SCI Trophies.

If you are turning your back 180 degrees on your previous stance it is better to write a lot and say a little!

The "other document" is the South African Predators Association's suggested standard to hunt Captive Bred and Released Lion. This was adopted as the "official PHASA" policy at their recent AGM.

In summary it requires:

1. The lion is to be released into a pre-approved [by the provincial Nature Conservation Authority] and properly fenced enclosure of a minimum of 1000 hectares.

2. At least 7 days - or the longer period required by the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation Authority - should be allowed for the lion to "get to know his new environment" before a hunt is started. It also gives time for any tranquilizing drug that may have been administered for transportation to largely wear out. In the Free State Province this longer period is now 30 days!

In good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:

1. The lion is to be released into a pre-approved [by the provincial Nature Conservation Authority] and properly fenced enclosure of a minimum of 1000 hectares.

2. At least 7 days - or the longer period required by the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation Authority - should be allowed for the lion to "get to know his new environment" before a hunt is started. It also gives time for any tranquilizing drug that may have been administered for transportation to largely wear out. In the Free State Province this longer period is now 30 days!

In good hunting.

Better than nothing but still nowhere near good enough IMO.

The biggest problem is the wilding periods are unenforceable. If they can't come close to enforcing the e-tolls, (and I'm glad to say they can't! LOL) they certainly can't enforce a wilding period.

Here is the document of SAPA that is referred to in the PHASA document

Abridged abstract of SAPA norms and standards

Thank you Jaco.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
Here is the document of SAPA that is referred to in the PHASA document

Abridged abstract of SAPA norms and standards

Thanks for sharing. Two things I found interesting about this. One, the release period is only seven days. I would have guessed that for there to be a meaningful distinction between a "canned" hunt and a "captive bred" hunt the release period would have needed to be longer. Two, the standards note that all marketing materials must refer to the fact that it is a "captive bred" lion hunt. I did the most superficial of checks of some websites, even the outfitter hunts section on AR, and I did not see much (any) evidence that outfitters are advertising these as captive bred lions. Obviously, there must be some slippage between the standard and the policing of the standard.

The usual South Africa sale pitch is "there is a lion killing cattle here, would you like to shoot it?"

There is never any mention of it being bred on a farm.

In substantiating what Mjines posted earlier:

 Marketing material must stipulate that a captive
bred lion will be hunted. (Does not happen - as
MJines stated earlier).

 No feeding or baiting whatsoever is allowed. For
unknown/obscure reasons there is most always the
"discovery" of a convenient kill from the "day
before". The quarry inevitably gets shot within
several hours and mostly on the first day!

 The lion must be alert, healthy and fully
acquainted with the hunting area. And this is
supposed to happen over 7 days? - Ask the
Adamsons for their opinion!


Most of the hunting reports on such hunts fail to state that the" hunt" was in fact a canned hunt, conducted in a "non entirely wild" environment, as though they were ashamed of admitting what is a fact; that the services were provided by an outfitter whose business specialty is to afford the client with such "facilitated hunts".

To make any negative comment or "snipe" against any such hunt report is asking for trouble; you are required to stick to etiquette and join the ranks of those who stoop and bow or simply shut up.

It would be preferable that everyone (those concerned) came clean from the start. That way, we would all be on the same page and no one could really criticize a person's choice of hunt considering its legality; what is one's cup of tea may not be someone else's.

Just don't try and pass it off as one of those "blood, sweat, grime, dust and tears" hunts!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by medved:
thank you very much.

still dont understand with that letter what is and what is not a canned hunt ...

They wrote a lot without saying much!!

They refer to another document whish apparently sets the standard for captive bread lions.

They made no mention of the other canned trophy hunting industry that is thriving in South Africa.

The one that caters for the demands of Top 10 SCI Trophies.

PHASA unfortunately does not represent ALL South African outfitters.

I was at the AGM an PHASA originally wanted 3000ha an a 6 month release period.they also wanted minimum human contact in the breeding areas, this was accepted by SAPA and was already in practice.

Some of the members are also SAPA members (predator breeders association of SA)
It was put to a vote and it went to the wire, that PHASA would adopt the same standards as SAPA had set out for their own members, as it was their industry.
It was also pointed out that PHASA members need to keep the ethical high ground and be open about it if they wished to conduct these hunts. They also conceded that they where never going to shut down the practice as many non members where involved . That supply was driving the captive bred lion hunting, that as long as you had people who wanted to hunt a lion this way , you would have someone offering this kind of hunt.

A SAPA member member pointed out that 1000ha in the NW province could equated to 3000ha elsewhere. It was compared to hunting a kudu on 1000ha , why was one a hunt and the other not.

He also stated that SAPA did a study and found that lions are bound by water and food, and that lions that have been released for long periods are easier to hunt than lions that have been recently released.

His reasoning was that a recently released lion the sedative takes 3-4 days to clear the system and gives him 3-4 days to to get to know the area.In this early release period the lions are very active and move around a lot.
He says their study showed the lions with a six month release period tended to lie at water and wasn't much of a hunt at all.

The SA laws are all different for this kind of hunt but PHASA and it's members will conduct these hunts on these standards which is better than government minimum standards for some provinces.PHASA MEMBERS WHO CONDUCT LEGAL HUNTS BUT DO NOT COMPLY WITH THESE MINIMUM STANDARDS PHASA STANDARDS CAN FACE DISCIPLINARY ACTION.

Bottom line is that PHASA tries to represent the ethical hunters of SA, but it's not law to be a member.
If you are wanting an ethical hunt within and above the law hunt with a PHASA member.

quote:

.

Bottom line is that PHASA tries to represent the ethical hunters of SA, but it's not law to be a member.
If you are wanting an ethical hunt within and above the law hunt with a PHASA member.

This is one of the major problems in SA. If you are involved in the hunting industry, outfitter, ph, game farm owner or game breeder it is not mandatory to belong to a professional body. SAPA have rules for their members but not all Lion breeders belong to them. I received a cold canvas marketing mail from a Lion breeder offering me Lion hunts. The clients were to be flown out to the area and the "hunt" (read shooting of the Lion) will take place over 2 days and then the client is flown back. I am sure this person does not belong to SAPA and he will keep on getting away with his unethical behaviour.

Dave's advice to only hunt with PHASA members is good advice, if something goes wrong at least you know that something will be done. In the past there was a lot of criticism against PHASA, some with merit, but the organisation changed a lot since Adri became CEO. A lot of work is done behind the scenes that also benefits the outfitters and ph's that does not belong to PHASA. We need to be our own watchdog, if we do not do it, the government will step in and that will be a nightmare.

I was a member of PHASA for something like 20 years and the only reason I left was they don't have and didn't want to have a section for retired members and I wasn't prepared to pay full membership for nothing more than an occasional newsletter..... I've had my fair share of run in's and disagreements with them over the years but generally have been a keen supporter of the organisation.

That said, the one fault they've always had (IMO) is that whilst they're supposed to be the PHs association of SA, they also represent other interests such as outfitters and lion breeders etc simply because many PHs are also outfitters and lion breeders (or involved with breeders) etc and sometimes, those things come into conflict with each other which is what appears to have happened in this case.

To me, the original requirements stated by Dave of 3000ha and a 6 month release/wilding period with minimum human contact would be a good start but anything less (as was eventually decided upon) isn't good enough...... but that said, the country can't keep tabs on it's e-tolling or traffic tickets so there's no chance on God's earth they could keep tabs on the wilding periods of individual lions in individual areas, so perhaps it's rather a moot point.

I know many here (esp those involved in breeding or shooting captive bred lions) will regard me as a radical (to say the very least ) for saying this but I personally reckon the only thing that will truly work properly is for the country (perhaps the continent) to ban lion breeding entirely.

Whilst I know that suggestion is going to put a lot of people's backs up, I reckon it's the only solution that might ensure the generations that come after us will be able to continue hunting lions.

Steve,

What would banning lion breeding achieve?

How about rhino breeding, should we ban that as well?

How about farms that breed all the plains game that is used for put and take hunting?

It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this.

Personally, I don't care how long a lion has been released to be hunted.

It is still farm bred animal, and I certainly will not wish to shoot one like that.

But, there are many people who would, and I see absolutely no reason to deny them that. As long as we all know before hand that it is a captive bred lion they are shooting.

Saeed

As I see it, breeding & shooting lion is entirely different to the other species because a lion is bred & raised in a restricted area & then released & shot more or less straight after. The other species have a lifetime of more or less living wild.

Therefore if you ban lion breeding entirely, you close down the whole canned lion shooting industry pretty much immediately & completely...... and as I've said before, (IMO) if it continues then one day the antis will use it as a club to beat us over the head with & to have ALL lion hunting & possibly ALL hunting banned completely & in fact, I think we've already seen the opening moves of that with the recent Bachman nonsense.

I'm not thinking of my future because I'm retired but I would certainly like to think subsequent generations will continue to enjoy the experiences I have.

It's a tricky situation as 7000+ lions are in the SA captive breeding system and only 600 odd where hunted last year.

I don't think it's going to stop wild lion hunting, on the contrary I think it will benefit it. If you want a lion get one but if you want a wild lion we'll go get one.

Love it hate it, if you ban it you condemn over 30% of the WORLDS lion population.

I think you need to leave it to individuals to decide if they want their Pheasants wild or from a pheasant farm where they are placed 20 min before you get there.

The BIGGEST problem I have is where do you draw the line. As Saeed points out.
Where do we stop ? South Africa's conservation success story will implode as all of it will become grey.

I think it's a personal choice an we as hunters must stop begrudging another mans hunting choice or his budget. Hunting is not just for the rich, by banning things we are going to make the sport to Elitist.

My 2c

I don't think it'll impact the wild lion population one iota because the two populations are entirely divorced from each other and neither has anything at all to do with the other.

The only benefit anyone or anything gets from the captive bred population is that the shooters who simply want a trophy (if that's the right word!) to decorate their trophy room get what they want and the lion breeders make a shit load of money out of it..... Wild lions are on quota so it makes no difference to their populations etc if none or a thousand or a hundred thousand are shot.

As to where do we stop? IMO, we stop when unethical practices are ceased and only fair chase hunting exists and quite frankly, I don't care a fig that it'll mean some people have to go without a lion in their trophy room and some PHs/Outfitters lose an income from such things.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

I think it's a personal choice an we as hunters must stop begrudging another mans hunting choice or his budget. Hunting is not just for the rich, by banning things we are going to make the sport to Elitist.

My 2c

Surely, however, you would draw the line at some ethical point? Is hunting cubs okay? Certainly not. My point is that while it is easy to say it is simply a matter of personal choice, ethics enter into the equation at some point hence it is just a matter of where to draw the line, not whether a line should be drawn.

Steve and Mike all good points. But at the end of the day we kill animals. Nothing we do is going to make the antis happy.
How you kill them should be a personal choice.

I'm personally a walk an stalk fare chase hunter and anyone that has hunted with me will tell you the same.not really interested in an AR fist fight, just feel people shouldn't be judged for how they want to spend their money.

This form of lion hunting is here to stay, like it or not unfortunately so we need to self regulate it with our Dollars an choose where and how we want to hunt.

You buggers have a good evening

I agree with you Dave that too often folks are too judgmental, a tendency we all need to avoid. The only reason I weighed in on this subject was because it seemed that the guidelines that have been adopted for these hunts appear to either be way too lax (only a minimum of seven days release time) or not adhered to (advertising must disclose that the hunt is a captive bred lion hunt). If the guidelines are either minimal or not followed, sort of begs the question of why have guidelines in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I agree with you Dave that too often folks are too judgmental, a tendency we all need to avoid. The only reason I weighed in on this subject was because it seemed that the guidelines that have been adopted for these hunts appear to either be way too lax (only a minimum of seven days release time) or not adhered to (advertising must disclose that the hunt is a captive bred lion hunt). If the guidelines are either minimal or not followed, sort of begs the question of why have guidelines in the first place.

Fully agree, problem is not everyone belongs to PHASA or SAPA the 2 organizations that are trying to implement some sort of standard.

So the guys breaking the law are not members.

DSC and THE WILD SHEEP foundation will only let PHASA members exhibit . Unfortunately SCI doesn't want to come on board with thus initiative to try and route out unscrupulous outfitters.

So the South African Dept. Of Environmental Affairs officers are supposed to be attending the main shows. They will have a booth or share the PHASA booth and will be marketing SA and PHASA members as a hunting destination.

They are also to check that all SA vendors are in fact registered Outfitters (a legal requirement to be marketing ) and to see what and how they are marketing. This is a PHASA initiative.

So hopefully we can catch one or two of these guys

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Fully agree, problem is not everyone belongs to PHASA or SAPA the 2 organizations that are trying to implement some sort of standard.

This is exactly our problem, it is time that it becomes mandatory that you must be a member of a professional body if you are involved in any form of professional hunting.

Another problem we have in RSA is that certain provinces allows non citizens to register as ph's. This create a lot of problems. The person lives outside the borders of RSA and market their hunts. They are not registered as outfitters in RSA, which means that they are not allowed to advertise or receive money from clients. Problem is that they are outside the borders of RSA and nothing can be done to them. Amongst the non citizen ph's there are good guys but there are some real big scamsters.

A lot must be done to ensure that the hunting industry conforms to minimum standards. We need to regulate ourselves and get rid of the bad apples

quote:

They are also to check that all SA vendors are in fact registered Outfitters (a legal requirement to be marketing ) and to see what and how they are marketing. This is a PHASA initiative.

In a nutshell one is to assume therefore that most of the lions and lionesses being bragged about (especially those taken with a bow) are not quite legal?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

They are also to check that all SA vendors are in fact registered Outfitters (a legal requirement to be marketing ) and to see what and how they are marketing. This is a PHASA initiative.

In a nutshell one is to assume therefore that most of the lions and lionesses being bragged about (especially those taken with a bow) are not quite legal?

You can apply for a permit

How about a bit of ?

I'm just addressing the number of days that a lion has to be in some biggish enclosure before being legal to shoot, and nothing else.

PHASA had an original 3 months period in mind. However at the just past AGM some member(s) of the Predators Association convinced them PHASA meeting that 7 days (or the longer time required in the relevant Provincial Regulations) should be adopted.

I strongly support the 7 days between release and start of the hunt. Why?

Well, be assured that even a captive bred lion, that was reared and grew to big-mane age in a very small enclosure - something like 100 square yards (?) - is not easy to transport. It must be caught in it's little enclosure and put into a small enough crate or cage to fit on the back of a truck. Then it must be driven for some distance to the "larger than 1000 hectares" area where it will be released. Now a big mane lion does not take kindly to this type of abuse. They are invariably darted and sedated, even before being captured in the little enclosure. They are kept sedated or tranquilized during the ride to the release point. I'm not sure of what the norm is, but cost considerations makes me think that the still sedated lion is unloaded next to water, and the transporters go away. The sedated lion will remain there until the drugs have worn off. Then, probably about a day after being left there, he will start exploring his new "home" - which is really his death camp!

By the 4th day after being released the drugs will mostly have been fully metabolized or excreted and he will be getting really hungry! Remember this lion grew old by eating human provided meals - parts of dead horse, donkey or cow and lots of dead chicken. Really any form of meat that the breeder can get cheap! [Possibly some dog food pellets? Who can enlighten about this?] The SAPA standards stipulate that the release area should:

"The hunting area must be self-sustaining with adequate water provision and natural prey species. No domesticated prey species are allowed."

So, although there will be a few zebra or wildebeest or some other potential prey animals around, the lion has absolutely no idea of how to hunt. It, being a lion, will for sure possess a good hunting instinct. But actual hunting experience? NILL! Nothing whatsoever! So, although the lion may or might actually catch a suitable prey animal, he is more likely to go hungry. Be very sure that by the 7th day after his release he is likely to be very, but really very hungry. Hungry enough to go for a so-called lion hunter and his PH as potential prey!

Come to think of it, I actually like to say that I rather support the good old 96 hours or 4 days between release and start of the "hunt" that North West Province have, but which is now overridden by the PHASA and SAPA Norms and Standards to 7 days. Why let the poor beast go hungry? He was bred and fed for many years and is now going to die by being shot be some guy who wants a trophy lion. Tell me honestly, what purpose does the extra few days of getting the poor thing hungrier serve? I really think that all of us, as good hunters, should petition PHASA to change the period to just 4 days - enough for most of the tranquilizing drugs to were off, but not so long as to make the poor lion really very hungry!

So, I do not support suggestions for a 30 days or even longer period between the release and start of the hunt. The lion is going to get shot, why prolong the process? That is just my personal view! Blast away if you wish to!

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Fully agree, problem is not everyone belongs to PHASA or SAPA the 2 organizations that are trying to implement some sort of standard.

This is exactly our problem, it is time that it becomes mandatory that you must be a member of a professional body if you are involved in any form of professional hunting.

Another problem we have in RSA is that certain provinces allows non citizens to register as ph's. This create a lot of problems. The person lives outside the borders of RSA and market their hunts. They are not registered as outfitters in RSA, which means that they are not allowed to advertise or receive money from clients. Problem is that they are outside the borders of RSA and nothing can be done to them. Amongst the non citizen ph's there are good guys but there are some real big scamsters.

A lot must be done to ensure that the hunting industry conforms to minimum standards. We need to regulate ourselves and get rid of the bad apples

Jaco,

dont tell us you re trying to say that insiders PH are perfect and there is no black sheep PH from your country ....

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Fully agree, problem is not everyone belongs to PHASA or SAPA the 2 organizations that are trying to implement some sort of standard.

This is exactly our problem, it is time that it becomes mandatory that you must be a member of a professional body if you are involved in any form of professional hunting.

Another problem we have in RSA is that certain provinces allows non citizens to register as ph's. This create a lot of problems. The person lives outside the borders of RSA and market their hunts. They are not registered as outfitters in RSA, which means that they are not allowed to advertise or receive money from clients. Problem is that they are outside the borders of RSA and nothing can be done to them. Amongst the non citizen ph's there are good guys but there are some real big scamsters.

A lot must be done to ensure that the hunting industry conforms to minimum standards. We need to regulate ourselves and get rid of the bad apples

Jaco,

dont tell us you re trying to say that insiders PH are perfect and there is no black sheep PH from your country ....

I am not saying that all RSA ph's are saints, why did I say it must be mandatory to belong to a professional body. Please read my last sentence. I have mentioned 2 situations that is problematic. Please read my whole post and don't use pieces out of context.

quote:

Originally posted by medved:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

Fully agree, problem is not everyone belongs to PHASA or SAPA the 2 organizations that are trying to implement some sort of standard.

This is exactly our problem, it is time that it becomes mandatory that you must be a member of a professional body if you are involved in any form of professional hunting.

Another problem we have in RSA is that certain provinces allows non citizens to register as ph's. This create a lot of problems. The person lives outside the borders of RSA and market their hunts. They are not registered as outfitters in RSA, which means that they are not allowed to advertise or receive money from clients. Problem is that they are outside the borders of RSA and nothing can be done to them. Amongst the non citizen ph's there are good guys but there are some real big scamsters.

A lot must be done to ensure that the hunting industry conforms to minimum standards. We need to regulate ourselves and get rid of the bad apples

Jaco,

dont tell us you re trying to say that insiders PH are perfect and there is no black sheep PH from your country ....

I think you've misunderstood everything myself and Jaco have been trying to say. We have black sheep but non belonging to professional bodies .

95% of complaints received by PHASA last year was regarding NON MEMBERS.

SO IF YOU DONT WANT A BLACK SHEEP OUTFITTER. HUNT WITH A PHASA MEMBER

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
I think you've misunderstood everything myself and Jaco have been trying to say. We have black sheep but non belonging to professional bodies .

95% of complaints received by PHASA last year was regarding NON MEMBERS.

SO IF YOU DONT WANT A BLACK SHEEP OUTFITTER. HUNT WITH A PHASA MEMBER

Mate, you'll excuse me for saying so but that's a bit of a sweeping statement by anyone's standards. (To say the very least)

Groenewald himself from OoA was a member for some years and there was a fairly large number of complaints against (esp older) members that just sat on the shelf for bloody years until one particular President (one of the best ever) finally got around to sorting them out.

PHASA has had and no doubt has occasional flaky members since forever & whilst I agree the vast majority of members are good guys, there are a few that bend the rules at the very least and it's unfair to ignore that situation.

As for the marketing thing, let's face it, that's always been an utterly ridiculous law. Most advertising takes place outside RSA because that's where the clients are and RSA law does not apply to other countries which is why no-one (AFAIK) has ever been successfully prosecuted for it.

All we are doing is trying to appease the antis!

Why are we going through those silly motions of trying to put an acceptable face on canned hunting?

If someone wants to shoot a captive lion, let him have it.

Because no matter what we do, no matter how long that lion is let free in the wild, it is STILL a farm bred lion.

And no lion hunter worthy of the name would even dream of shooting one like that.

However, there are many who would do so without batting an eye lid.

They are the same people who pay crooked PHs in South Africa to source Top 10 SCI trophies.

They do not have one drop of a hunter blood in their veins.

All they care about is how to glorify themselves.

I understand that many lions are transported into other countries from South Africa, just to satisfy them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
All we are doing is trying to appease the antis!

Why are we going through those silly motions of trying to put an acceptable face on canned hunting?

If someone wants to shoot a captive lion, let him have it.

Because no matter what we do, no matter how long that lion is let free in the wild, it is STILL a farm bred lion.

And no lion hunter worthy of the name would even dream of shooting one like that.

However, there are many who would do so without batting an eye lid.

They are the same people who pay crooked PHs in South Africa to source Top 10 SCI trophies.

They do not have one drop of a hunter blood in their veins.

All they care about is how to glorify themselves.

I understand that many lions are transported into other countries from South Africa, just to satisfy them.

Both legal and illegal movements happen and there's barely a hunting country in Africa that doesn't receive permits (details on the CITES website) to move live lions for 'travelling circuses' every year..... Don't know about anyone else but I've never seen a travelling circus anywhere in Africa!

Let's also remember there are lion breeding centres in other African countries as well so the despicable practice isn't just restricted to RSA either. (Which is exactly why I made my previous comment about banning lion breeding completely throughout Africa)

I fully agree with Saeed's point of view regarding people hunting captive bred Lions. I for one will not participate in a hunt like that. If someone wants to hunt a captive bred Lion so be it, but tell the true story not the hyped up hunt reports that we see.

We have done a lot of good in RSA with regards to conservation, but captive bred Lions got nothing to do with conservation, it is a money making racket as far as I am concerned.

I have to weigh in with Steve here.
To suggest that only phasa members are upright and honest individuals is disingenuous at best. There are a lot of top notch outfitters and PH's
who do not want to belong to that association.
KZNHCA and CHASA have a professional arm which also have a rigorous code of conduct. Will any of these associations be able to prevent rotten eggs from polluting the jar, no. As another person on this thread mentions, there are known incidents of law breaking, but getting hard evidence is always an issue. If hard evidence can be collected, investigated and proven, then under the new legislation requiring all SA PH's to be registered on a national data base the guilty can be sanctioned accordingly. This would affect members or non members of any hunting association.
I am not against outfitters and PH's being members of an association, but I am dead against there being only one association.

quote:

Originally posted by 500nitro:
I have to weigh in with Steve here.
To suggest that only phasa members are upright and honest individuals is disingenuous at best. There are a lot of top notch outfitters and PH's
who do not want to belong to that association.
KZNHCA and CHASA have a professional arm which also have a rigorous code of conduct. Will any of these associations be able to prevent rotten eggs from polluting the jar, no. As another person on this thread mentions, there are known incidents of law breaking, but getting hard evidence is always an issue. If hard evidence can be collected, investigated and proven, then under the new legislation requiring all SA PH's to be registered on a national data base the guilty can be sanctioned accordingly. This would affect members or non members of any hunting association.
I am not against outfitters and PH's being members of an association, but I am dead against there being only one association.

I'd guess such a requirement could & probably would be challenged in court as being unreasonably restrictive & possibly also unconstitutional.

IIRC, some years ago, the then PHASA President sent out a newsletter with a similar suggestion but would cover (at least) all of southern Africa rather than just RSA & PHASA/he would be the association/President of choice.......... he was put in his place in no uncertain terms by not only the membership but PHs & Outfitters in the other African countries & fortunately, we heard no more about it!

I did a simple test. I did a search in the Outfitters -- Offered and Discounted Hunts section of AR for "lion south africa" posts in the last 12 months. I then reviewed the posts and went to the following websites. In each case lion hunts in South Africa are advertised without any mention that the lion hunts are for captive bred lions.

Limpopo Big Game Safaris
www.lbgsafaris.com

Serapa Safaris
www.serapasafaris.co.za

De Klerk Safaris
www.dksafaris.com

Skin Afrika Consulting
www.skinafrika.com

Kudos to Spiral Horn Safaris (www.spiralhorn.co.za) who posted in the Outfitters -- Offered and Discounted Hunts section a lion hunt that made it clear the hunt they were advertising was for a captive bred lion. Their website, however, includes no such disclaimer.

My point is not that these outfits are good or bad, simply that it seems that the PHASA policy is honored in the breach. It is also more than a little curious that if the outfitters that defend and offer these hunts truly believe that there is no stigma associated with them, then why is there an apparent reservation to simply be up front as the PHASA policy requires?

Ok chaps we getting off topic again. I'm sorry that I insinuated that only PHASA MEMBERS ARE TRUSTWORTY. We live in a imperfect world.

But that's like saying let's disband the military's an police of the world as some of them are corrupt.

Back to personal choice decide for yourself who you want to hunt with. Decide for yourself if you want to hunt captive bred / SA Ranch lions or wild lions.


Mike as for the websites PHASA only just had their AGM 3 weeks ago.So should be interesting to see that play out.

I can't vouch for everyone but your chances are better with an outfitter that has volunteered to a code of conduct set up by his peers and can be kicked out if he doesn't.

You chaps decide.

I think we just found # 11 or 12 on the AR fight club.

Enjoy this one chaps I don't really have much more to add.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I did a simple test. I did a search in the Outfitters -- Offered and Discounted Hunts section of AR for "lion south africa" posts in the last 12 months. I then reviewed the posts and went to the following websites. In each case lion hunts in South Africa are advertised without any mention that the lion hunts are for captive bred lions.

Limpopo Big Game Safaris
www.lbgsafaris.com

Serapa Safaris
www.serapasafaris.co.za

De Klerk Safaris
www.dksafaris.com

Skin Afrika Consulting
www.skinafrica.com

Kudos to Spiral Horn Safaris (www.spiralhorn.co.za) who posted in the Outfitters -- Offered and Discounted Hunts section a lion hunt that made it clear the hunt they were advertising was for a captive bred lion. Their website, however, includes no such disclaimer.

My point is not that these outfits are good or bad, simply that it seems that the PHASA policy is honoured in the breach. It is also more than a little curious that if the outfitters that defend and offer these hunts truly believe that there is no stigma associated with them, then why is there an apparent reservation to simply be up front as the PHASA policy requires?

PHASA issued a paper explaining their stance on captive bred Lions and they referred to the code of conduct of SAPA.

Problem is that a organisation can only enforce their rules on their own members, this is what is creating the problems. I do not have a problem that there are more than one professional body, but that bring along a bunch of other problems. Action can be started against a person due to a breach of the code of conduct or ethics, he simply resigns from that organisation and join the next one. It can carry on for years before that person is removed from the industry. The different organisation must have good communication between them and make sure that hopping between organisations is closely watched.

I also agree with 500Nitro that the regulation to be registered on a national data basis will root out some bad people in our industry, but that will be people who did or partake in illegitimate actions. We need to ensure that our broad ethical behaviour is on par.

As I said before, we need to regulate ourselves, if we do not do it the government will start doing it and that is a guarantee for a disaster. There is much to gain if everybody in the professional hunting industry belongs to a professional body.

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
Ok chaps we getting off topic again. I'm sorry that I insinuated that only PHASA MEMBERS ARE TRUSTWORTY. We live in a imperfect world.

But that's like saying let's disband the military's an police of the world as some of them are corrupt.

Back to personal choice decide for yourself who you want to hunt with. Decide for yourself if you want to hunt captive bred / SA Ranch lions or wild lions.


Mike as for the websites PHASA only just had their AGM 3 weeks ago.So should be interesting to see that play out.

I can't vouch for everyone but your chances are better with an outfitter that has volunteered to a code of conduct set up by his peers and can be kicked out if he doesn't.

You chaps decide.

I think we just found # 11 or 12 on the AR fight club.

Enjoy this one chaps I don't really have much more to add.

thank you very much Dave for that correction.

Phil

Can a captive bred lion ever fend for itself?!