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http://forums.accuratereloadin...231045181#5231045181 I think this guy has a sheltered, naive view of the world.. | ||
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"...This may not be the appropriate place for this controversial viewpoint. If it belongs domewhere else, I hope the moderators will move it to that place. What is the object of hunting dangerous game? I always thought it was to pit one's own skill and bravery against an animal which under ALL the circumstances of the hunt has a very real chance of killing the hunter if he does not shoot with self control and real skill in whatever instance he encounters the animal(s). I never have believed it to be to proove who cxan carry and fire the biggest cartridges, or any rifle which leaves the DG with no real chance of winning the contest in most circumstances. If the hunt is not frought with the real danger of death to the hunter, why not just hunt table fare such as dik-dik or rabbits? I one wants to encounter no REAL danger from the animals hunted, why stop with a .500 Jeffrey, or a .475 M'bogo Smasher? Hell, why not use a predator drone? Then even if the animal manages to straggle away gravely wounded but still dangerous, the hunter will have no risk to his own hide. I'm not saying everyone should use .22 Hornets to hunt lion or leopard or Buff or other thin-skinned DG.... But there certainly is plenty of killing effect on such game with a properly managed .318 WR, .338 Win Mag, or 9.3x62. Is it really necessary to use cartridges which render the hunt only minimally dangerous, if at all? You obviously know my view from the phrasing of the question.... My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still..." ========================== Well, don't dismiss what he said out of hand. I have been hunting "dangerous" game for 30 years. I have shot lions, leopards, buffalo and elephants that run into 3 figures, and I have never, ever, felt that I was in actual danger. It was never my intention to put myself - or those I hunt with - in danger. And most of the times I have used the minimum caliber required by law to hunt with. Lions, leopards, buffalo and elephants will kill you if given half a chance. But today's sport hunter is required to be accompanied by a pro who is supposed to look after his skin if things turn nasty. Us hunters are a funny lot. | |||
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I don't know of any rational scale to determine how dangerous something is, or isn't. It seems to me that there are quite a few aspects of the "danger" which have nothing to do with the caliber of the firearm used. If neither the hunter nor the PH see a second animal behind the one shot, which only wounds the second animal, it doesn't really matter what you shot the first one with, does it? Besides, perfectly placed shots are an objective, but things don't always work out that way, do they? All kinds of "potential" danger exist. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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Somebody may want to send this guy links to posts regarding the accidents leading to terrible injuries and deaths associated with DG hunts just this season. The guns are only tools of the men standing behind them. The guns and bullets can and do fail to provide the intended results due to skills and/or circumstances - the fallout is of course magnified exponentially when hunting DG. | |||
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I agree, tygersman. The tragic death of at least 4 experienced PH's this year (or was it 5) should be a clue to the serious nature of hunting Dangerous Game. We, humans, are not prepared to take on DG without an equalizer and sometimes that isn't enough. | |||
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All game can be dangerous or injurious if given the chance. Minimum calibers are given in order to make sure that dangerous game and other game can be effectively, cleanly and quickly killed. In spite of that hunters and PHs are killed by wounded game that either they have ineffectively shot or have been previously shot by someone else and come boiling out of the bush, whether shot by the minimum caliber or by the big boomers. Some people like the extra or added "insurance" feel of a bigger caliber. A bigger caliber doesn't guarantee that you'll come out unscathed. It's how you handle it and the situation. Ask Saeed. | |||
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I believe there are far more people killed skiing every year in your state. But skiing forums sure don't get preoccupied with it. Now back to my deer hunt... | |||
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Trying to quantify the danger in DG hunting. Oh my, talk about poking the sacred cow. (or sacred buffalo, lol) I remember a thread years ago along a similar line. Safe to say, it seems far more dangerous for the PH than the client. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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There are a lot of fatalities in the ski areas across the state. Inexperienced and experienced skiers alike. Trees, rocks, other skiers all contributing factors, and to top it off, most of the skiers never consider that they could end up dead while enjoying a supposedly safe sport. | |||
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I used to live and ski in Co; my fam still lives there. I was always afraid of those Texas skiers...probably more so than buffalo. | |||
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A slightly differnet perspective ... Dangerous game is commonly defined as the Big 7 in Africa & possibly India. In India you would replace the Cape Buffalo with the water buffalo (the gaur is not really dangerous). There are no hippos and the Indian rhino & fresh water croc are also not condsidered really DG. Hunting DG is a differnt issue. To me the real danger of hunting such animals is in the situation. If you are just hunting baited cats, the danger factor is quite minimal. But if you are hunting a specific cattle killer or maneater, the danger factor is HUGE, irrespective of the gun or hide used. Same goes for hunting a rogue elephant or a wounded buffalo. The danger factor goes up far beyond the size of the gun! JMHO Ps. You may want to read the post on the Botswana leopard video. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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This leaves me wondering how many of us hunt Africa and DG because they want to encounter "danger of death". I guess to me the hunt is about outsmarting the animals so you can AVOID "danger of death". I don't go to Africa to test my metal against some animal. Do alot of folks really do that? Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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So you don't throw rocks at the cape buffalo to get them mad first?  Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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NO, YOU GUT SHOOT THEM, THEN LET THEM DECIDE HOW THEY WANT TO DIE..... Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Or you could just tell them that they are ugly & their mama dresses them funny! LORD, let my bullets go where my crosshairs show. Not all who wander are lost. NEVER TRUST A FART!!! Cecil Leonard | |||
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Well said. It is why a good plains game hunt is a good hunt | |||
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And more people die in auto accidents than ski accidents. So the above is a poor analogy. In my limited (but hopefully growing) experience, DG hunting includes the element of the potentially unpredictable nature of a wild beast PLUS the capacity for (1) failure of the skill of hunter; (2) varying and uncertain conditions; and (3) failure of the equipment. If all goes right, the result has all of the makings of an exciting and expensive deer or duck hunt. If part if it goes wrong, it has the propensity for serious anxiety and injury. If all goes wrong, well, they may be shoveling you and/or members of your party into a bag. Thankfully, the last scenario isn't at all likely to occur due to the training/practice of responsible hunters and the professionalism exhibited by the vast majority of professional hunters. But sometimes, shit happens, no matter who you are or who you're with. | |||
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And more hunters die in auto accidents too but we dont think driving is dangerous. If you want danger take up mountain climbing Like duckear said, the danger seems to be limited to the ph and trackers. | |||
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Soooo, what would be an "acceptable" death rate for hunters of dangerous game? Just to make it "fair" (socialist clap-crap buzz-word here) to the animals being hunted? Say one in what 5 hunts results in a death of, if not the hunter, then at least a tracker, PH, whatever. Is 20% too low? too high? Hell, lets hunt cape buffalo with sharp sticks, is that fair? Bow hunting brown bear without any back-up, yes even a handgun, is that fair? Deer with knives? (A friend once tried to finish a deer with a knife, wounded deer ARE dangerous game at contact distances in case you've never seen one of these rodeos.) This sounds like the kind of crap anti-hunters like to introduce into otherwise rational conversations. Emotionalized garbage or intellectual vomit at best. If you want to kill yourself, have at it. Those of us that have been around a while realize life can be pretty bloody dangerous without adding stupidity to the mix. | |||
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And by your reasoning, mountain climbing is also not dangerous because more people die in auto crashes and sking accidents than as a result of mountain climbing .... Exponentially more people drive and ski than hunt DG or mountain climb, so I'd expect more casualties there, wouldn't you? I agree that driving can be dangerous - but we have to drive (to work, for kids, to be efficient). We don't have to go half-way around the world to hunt DG, taking international flights, charters and driving to and from the site to hunt DG. Some choose to spend time doing that. Seriously, let's not equate it to riding a four-wheeler to the deer stand. | |||
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Are you kidding? Driving IS dangerous. And I don't get to shoot back. I have my life threatened on the road by aggressive drivers and head-down texting idiots every day. Just today I had the temerity of flashing my high beams at a moron who was drifting across the centerline towards me - and he flipped ME off! However, I do carry in case they decide to go rogue and come after me! Dave | |||
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Well, don't dismiss what he said out of hand. I have been hunting "dangerous" game for 30 years. I have shot lions, leopards, buffalo and elephants that run into 3 figures, and I have never, ever, felt that I was in actual danger. It was never my intention to put myself - or those I hunt with - in danger. And most of the times I have used the minimum caliber required by law to hunt with. Lions, leopards, buffalo and elephants will kill you if given half a chance. But today's sport hunter is required to be accompanied by a pro who is supposed to look after his skin if things turn nasty. Us hunters are a funny lot.[/QUOTE] From what I have seen, you shouldn't feel in danger! You shoot an appropriate gun and you place your bullet where it needs to go!  I would feel safe with you doing the shooting anywhere!  Maybe if he could shoot as well as you, he might have a different view! | |||
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Over the past few years, some of the people I have met in, going or coming are on their first trip and also the first trip for Buffalo. Makes me think that Cape Buffalo hunting is the new "Bucket List" item for the now crowd. You can tell by talking to some of them, they have a new minimum caliber rifle or larger and have not shot it much (damn thing kicks too much). One gent in line with TSA in Dulles had a new .458 win mag and 1 box of factory ammo. We were talking about recoil and accuracy and such and he mentioned that he would sight it in when he got to his destination and that he hadn't shot it yet because he didn't want to get any bad shooting habits started before going. ???He was already counting of the recoil being much more than he was used to. I thought the buffalo had a much more than equal chance. | |||
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Hunting the big 4 in Africa isn't that dangerous because thousands of guys do it every year and come home unscathed. The danger comes from an unprovoked charge or more likely a charge from a wounded animal. The wounded-animal story is the same most every time. Some yahoo wounds an animal, and it's not just the first-timers if anyone has the guts to admit it. The followup commences and somewhere along the way, the animal charges. The gun ain't big enough to stop the animal with more piss poor shooting. Usually the PH with the notion that he must save the yahoo gets ripped. If lucky he lives. The yahoo, as he is running away leaving the PH to his own devices, blames the charge and subsequent wounds and/or death on the PH, the rifle, the booking agent, the camp cook, his wife, the airlines, the ammunition manufacturer ....... ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will: I started a post earlier asking the size of the DG quota. How many lions does Tanz allow? How many hunters died last year hunting them? Same question with buffalo, leopard, ele. It is simple math. Compare that to climbing Annapurna: 130 climbers have reached the summit, but 53 have died trying. By those statistics, K2 is relatively benevolent; it kills only one climber for every four that reach the top. If DG was as dangerous as that, not many here would be doing it. But back to hunting. As you point out, the PH is the guy normally in the greatest amount of danger. | |||
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This is one of the problems that exist to cause the recommending of smaller chamberings that are actually the bare minimum for the animals being hunted. People like Saeed and I must say, most who have hunted most of their lives with one particular chambering the minimum is fine. That fact doesn’t mean it should be recommended to someone new to any chambering. This, at first, is luck in getting it done with no problem in the beginning, and as time goes by this shooter gets so good with that small chambering that he never makes a shot that is marginal, so for animals taken without mishap become irrefutable evidence (to him) that the chosen chambering is 100% perfect for use on very large animals that if not stopped can and will kill you. For him it is, for others not so much. The skid mark in the underwear of the above is, not everyone is SAEED, and not everyone shoots as well as SAEED! In fact MOST do not shoot as well as Saeed. On top of that for most young first timers to Africa will never have the experience SAEED has if he lives to be 100 yrs old. So recommending something on the minimum end to an inexperienced person to Africa to hunt dangerous game is not the best idea anyone ever had. Conversely, recommending something too large is just as foolish! without the suggestion that the person get in as much shooting as he can to learn to shoot the rifle he chooses with recoil he has had no experience with is not a good idea either. I too have had many people tell me that the little 243 Win chambered rifle is too small for muledeer, and for them they may be correct that the 243 is too light! For me shooting it they are dead wrong! I say, with me shooting it, it will take anything on the north American continent and just about any plains game and cats of Africa as well with proper conditions. Do I recommend the 243 Win chambering to everyone who wants to hunt all of North America? Absolutely not! Will I take on anything in North America with my Little Mannlicher Shoenauer MCA rifle chambered for 243 Win with my handloads? I absolutely would. Just like Saeed I have every confidence in my shooting with what ever rifle I choose to hunt with, no matter what the animal is. Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not going into the weeds with a wounded lion or leopard with a bolt action 243Win nor do I recommend anyone else do so, but on bait It would do the trick if it were legal. All the above is simply saying because Saeed can and has taken all of Arica’s game with his 375/404, and earlier with his 375 H&H and even smaller chamberings doesn’t change the fact that the .375 is minimum legal for the big five in most countries, along with the 9.3 in some, in Africa, and for the average hunter of elephant he is better off with something over .400 cal but he has to shoot it a lot no matter the chambering before he takes on the bite-backs in Africa. He needs to do that a lot more before he takes on the big boys with a chambering that is bare minimum. If the guy has never shot a rifle bigger than a 30-06 then he needs to shoot even the 375 H&H a lot before he goes buffalo hunting with it, because the 375 H&H seems to have a very stiff recoil to the 30-06 shooter. As long as he has shot what ever rifle he chooses enough to disregard the felt recoil on targets he will place his shots well in the field on game as well. Nobody should go into the weeds with a rifle they have never shot regardless of the chambering, especially one that has far more recoil than he is used to. On the top end he can choose too large even if has shot a lot of heavy recoiling rifles, and get into some recoil he can’t handle as well. The guy is right dangerous game is not dangerous as long as you put the bullets where they do the most good, and in that case the chambering doesn’t make as much difference as good shooting does! TOO BIG, and TOO SMALL is just part of the cause in making any animal dangerous, but mostly it is simply the proficiency of the shooter, or lack there of, that make it dangerous or not! Anything that gets in the scope on Saeed’s rifle is the one in danger, not Saeed! ...........................................................................................................................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Dangerous Game is exactly that. Weather or not it is the Big 5 or Dangerous 7, Or here in N. America Moose, Grizzly, and Mtn. Lion. How about the bushbuck who some PH's considerable very dangerous to approach when wounded when said animal would like nothing better than to make you the next ornament on his horns. There is a thrill to hunting these creatures. Also the climate and terrain they are hunted in. Throw in the occassional poisonous viper the experience is heightened a bit more. The often repeated and best advice is to shoot the rifle you can handle. There is a lot of difference between using a 375 H&H resulting in an animal dead on the ground vs a 500 Nitro resulting in a grazing wound and pissed off very dangerous animal. Certainly it is the PH who places himself in danger when tracking in front of a client with a loaded rifle and or following up a wounded animal in thick jess due to a misplaced shot. Hunting dangerous game is thrilling but there is a difference between conducting the hunt intellingently versus just being careless hence stupid. Tim | |||
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While I agree with much of what you have said, I think the difference between experience and skill should be recognised. Saeed's success I imagine is not so much due to experience in terms of trips to Africa or even quantity of game taken but to his skill that he obviously has in many forms of shooting. Saeed will have steady nerves and good eye to motor coordination as you have to have to be a successful competitive shooter and of course these attributes also carry over to make a good hunter too. IMO Saeed could probably be one of few hunters who would be capable of emulating Bell and use a small calibre quite safely on DG,and this is not experience it is skill, something Bell had even as a young boy. You do mention proficiency further in your post and this is skill. There are a few, obviously we are only a small country, who have hunted Africa from NZ and from what I have seen they do very well on DG and the other animals in Africa not because they have years of experience on Africa animals or been there many times or shot many animals (for most here in NZ it is a once in a lifetime venture) but because they have developed great skills in handling firearms on other animals and can apply those same skills; calmness under pressure, good eye coordination, good understanding of anatomy, etc, on any animal anywhere in the World. In short I don't think we can make a judgement on how effective a hunter is in Africa on DG or any other game by the number of trips or years they may have been hunting or for that matter whether they carry the flashest and biggest gun, it is an individuals skill in remaining calm and placing whatever bullet he may be using in the right spot at the right time that spells the successful hunter. Some will be skilled on their first trip, others will never reach a good skill level no matter how many trips they do or how ever many animals they shoot at. I think we can use use the analogy of a car driver where the man with the biggest, flashest, fastest car and 40 years of driving experience is not necessarily going to be a good driver, nor is the one with the old dunger and 2 years experience. Some drivers have great skills from the day they get their licence and others will never become skilled drivers in their lifetime. | |||
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Really? I remember in Oct of 08 on a spotlight leopard hunt in the Tuli Block of Zim, during the middle of the night, a cow elephant approached our blind in total darkness and began trumpeting and kicking dirt on us. Couldn't see her at all. We just needed to turn on a light or make a wrong move and she would have flattened us. My rifle was strapped to the shooting sticks and as mentioned, we couldn't see her in the total darkness so the PH's 458 Lott was pretty useless. And this situation can be applied to Saeed's comment as well about never having felt real danger but I remember being pretty damn scared at that moment. And we were just hunting baited cats. An unexpected event for sure but hunting dangerous game can sometimes provide more than you bargained for. | |||
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Tod your point is taken. Over 25 yers ago in India I was hunting jungle fowl on the tea plantation and I almost stepped on a cobra sunning itself in the bush edge of the track. My earlier comment was with reference to any potential danger from the leopard itself. Over 50 years ago my dad sat over a bullock killed by a large leopard in a relatively open field. Since there was no immediate cover to build a hide, dad sat in a "kraal" - a big heavy duty wicker basket used to keep goats at night. The leopard approached the kraal and sniffed around and then huffed a growl before disapearing! It can get hairy if the situation makes it so. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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The old man must have farted chicken biryani and parotas for the leopard to take off in such a hurry  | |||
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eagle27 your post just repeted what I just wrote! The proficiency with a firearm comes from long time use of that rifle. If that rifle happens to be the minimum for any hunting, if you have consistant sucess with it,to you it becomes enough gun. All I'm saying is because you have consistant success with what is considered a light for game hunted is no real reason to reccomend that minimum chambering to others. It might get them into trouble, and nobody wants to be responsible for that. There are calibers that are considered to be middle ground for any given animal, and that is a safer bet for the guy new to the hunting of any animal. Once he get a little experience under his belt with that, he can move up or down but by then he is choosing from a position of knowledge, not gun rag advertisement! As I said you can reccomend too large as well, and either way your advice may be wrong for the new guy. However there is an old hunter's saying that has rung true for me all my life! It reads "Beware the man who ons only one gun for likely knows how to use it to good effect!" That rifle simply becomes part of it's owner's body, and seemingly shoots it's self placeing the bullets in the right place monotonously! ..................................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I hunt DG with a DG rifle. I still consider them dangerous. Even when double lunged,the offside leg broken, full of holes in the boiler room, some Cape Buffalo can last further/longer than the distance of the shot, which could create a dilema. I think I know this. I still love hunting those bastards.  BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Gee, Butch, what makes you say that? (Sorry, I couldn't resist) Chuck | |||
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Hey Chuck, How are the new knees? BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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They are starting to work okay, Butch, but they still won't let me drive. I hope to be doing the cha cha by New Years Eve, though. And they are Strykers <g> Chuck | |||
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People go on DG hunts with a level of skill and confidence that some would consider insufficient/inappropriate. Do PHs sometimes see it the same way, but still accept/tolerate such clients because ultimately they need to make money? Look at the number of clients[ambitious climbers] of 8000m+ peaks, who employ proffesionals to guide them on their quest for the top. Look at the number fatalities as result [of both clients and veteran seasoned guides/professional climbers]... Some guides die because they compromise their standards to accommodate the desires of the paying[sometimes rather demanding] less proficient client. Pro-climber or PH, both have to deal with/accomodate the improficiencies of their respective ametuer clients. A past acquaintance of mine[pro-climber]made it most of the way to Everest on her first attempt, but made the hard decision to called it off near the very top. made it on her next attempt,-only to be killed on another 8000m+peak, some yrs later. Some professions have benefit of being able to intentionally create "failure" situations to condition/train personel for the possibility/eventuality of such circumstances. However in DG hunting, one does not implement a program of intentionally poorly placed shots, in order to train people to better handle such haywire situations. Risk is everywhere in life; As some have said, people die on the ski fields, Motorcyclists have higher fatality rates than motor vehicles drivers, Every landing in an aircraft is a controlled crash. Four Wheelers have fatality rates that are worth noting, Race car drivers with their skills and vehicle construction, can often well avoid or well survive what appear to be quite horrific accidents. A group of pro-riders or drivers, is like a group of PHs going DG hunting together. However put an ametuer/low skilled person on the track with those pros at the speeds they do, and technically he poses a hindrance,annoyance and greater danger to them. Giving that ametuer a big horsepower race vehicle, that he cannot properly utilize or handle, is like giving a relative ametuer hunter a large chambering he cannot properly utilize/handle. Infact, it can be quite disadvantageous-detrimental, just like giving an inexperinced me the best climbing gear,aint really going to help me succesfully/proficiently climb a mountain.... nor is .500cal rifle going to help my hunting. People who drive,ride,ski,fly,climb,go boating,hiking,hunting,etc,... are usually aware of the deaths involved within those activities,.. if its something they enjoy doing or practically need to do, they generally do not become pre-occupied with the fear of accident,injury or death....and yes there are some people who use the risks/dangers inherent within, to challenge or cheat death/fate. Im usually more concerned about where the guns are pointing in a hunting party, rather than what risk an animal poses. | |||
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TRAX, I get your meaning with this post, and I agree with it in essences, however you are forgetting one thing, IMO! Everyone is an AMATEUR in the beginning of any activity. This includes the PH, Race car drivers or professional motorcycle racers. Even a licensed PH is not necessarily qualified to hunt dangerous game simply because he has guided clients to successful DG hunts. The next one may get him in trouble because of his inexperience as well when things go suddenly awry. In some cases the client has more experience than a young PH who is just starting out. All who go into the fields for dangerous game need to, first, have done some hunting for other game, and have used forearms enough to know that moving up to a much larger chambering has a learning curve to be proficient with the additional recoil. That is advice the booking agent or outfitter needs to make clear to a new client when he books. If a client new to hunting dangerous game but has hunted a lot of big game in his own country like elk and moose the hunting part is exactly the same. Having a 500NE in his hands may not help his HUNTING, but if he does his home work with the larger rifle, it will certainly help him with his STOPPING! Of course you may reccomend too large as well, and that is just as big a mistake as adivising too small! Certainly a mid range big bore is in the proper ball park, for the guy who has used nothing larger that say a.338 Win Mag. anything in the .400 or .450 range is about right. Almost anyone can adjust to the recoil of that range quite quickly. The difference is that with dangerous game one must keep his head, and if a more powerful rifle is needed for the DG he is hunting, he needs to have shot that rifle enough so that his handling of the rifle comes naturally. With these two things in mind, and practiced he is still a first timer to the game he is hunting, but not to hunting or the working of the rifle he has in his hands. IMO, Putting a so-called AMATEUR in front of a large dangerous animal like an elephant or Buffalo with a minimum caliber, simply because that is closer to what he has used to hunt a 2000 lb moose is folly. The minimum calibers in dangerous game fields are for VERY EXPERIENCED DG hunters or PHs not a first time DG hunting client, which is not necessarily an AMATEUR simply because this is his first elephant or buffalo! If the person booking this client advises the client properly he has plenty of time to learn a more efficient rifle for the job at hand. NOW if this is the case and the client disregards the advice, and either comes with a rifle that is too small for anyone but a very experienced PH or DG hunter, then he will be an AMATEUR when he arrives with any rifle, large or small! ……………………………….No flame,  just another point of view!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I dont at all doubt that some so called ametuers, are in fact quite experienced,skilled and capable. and to reinterate what eagle27 stated, some people have greater [natural?]affinity for some activities, that others even with a lifetime of experience and practice, will never quite attain. I recall hunting guide Phil Shoemaker['.458win']stating that the African PHs he has talked to, have mentioned that more game gets away injured from clients being overgunned, than from those that are seemingly under gunned. Harry Selby on the .375H&H ...  some extracts... ...The rifle saw little use by the clients on the safari, only the wife was hunting seriously, and she was an older lady unable to handle anything heavier than a .30-’06 Sprg. Fortunately for me, I was invited to use the .375 Mag., as often as I wished, and as there was plenty of ammunition in both 270- and 300-grain weights. I gladly availed myself of the kind offer and discovered that using it proved to be a new and rewarding experience.... I soon realized that all the claims I had read about the .375 H&H Mag. cartridge’s performance were true and—in my opinion—possibly understated.... ...Used on buffalo, the 300-grain solid, if the shot was well placed, would usually result in one shot, on the spot kills... ...It had become customary on pre-war safaris for clients to hire a heavy double rifle from the safari company for elephant, rhino and buffalo, and the .375’s role had been largely for use on the larger plains game and lion. However, due to the advent of convenient and time-saving air travel, combined with the writings of people such as Hemingway, Ruark and O’Connor, increasing numbers of people decided to undertake an African safari, and many of them had minimal hunting experience and were not too familiar in the use of firearms either. It takes time and much practice to shoot a heavy double rifle well, and having read stories about the horrendous recoil attributed to the heavy English doubles, some of the new generation of clients were possibly more apprehensive of the rifles they were about to use, than they were of the animal on which they would be using them. This situation did not contribute to accurate shooting and resulted in many missed shots, wounded animals and “messy” followups. I personally saw an elephant run off after having been cleanly missed by both barrels at less than 40 yards... ..This time of transition served its purpose however, because as time went by, clients, encouraged in many cases by the professional hunter, began using the .375 H&H Mag. instead of the heavy doubles on the “big three.” The change proved most rewarding, as more accurate placement of bullets resulted in cleaner kills and less time wasted, not to mention the danger involved in following up on wounded animals. In this era, the .375 H&H Mag. was confirming its status as a very effective dangerous game cartridge. So from what I gather, the large recoil big bores regularly proved detrimental to both client and PH. ..if anything, they often enough made DG hunting more haphazardly dangerous than it sensibly needed to be. Now, I dont know about anyone else, But I would rather have a well coached ametuer like Gail Selby(with Bells 7x57) beside me, that some macho guy client whos not real sure he can hit what he is aiming at with his .500cal | |||
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Yes strike, I had the similar thoughts when I read that thread this week! Decided not to post (I don't wrestle with pigs either). Just came to the conclusion that he may well prove Darwin's theory true with another stupid example. ________ Ray | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting DG hunting not dangerous if using a DG rifle?
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