quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO: DOJ, I clearly agree with you, and presently have a set of tusks sitting in Zim that I got in June, and I don't intend to apply for a Cites permit for several months, until the PH tells me that my stuff is nearing completion

quote:

The reason for the point I'm making is that if the hunter doesn't apply beforehand, he lays himself open to the possibility of being affected by any changes that might occur at short notice and thereby affect his import.

At the end of the day, it's not a problem to apply beforehand anyway, so why not do it right in the first place?

Sure, it might cost a few extra dollars if you don't shoot your leopard, but by not doing so, it just might cost you your trophy........

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Jack,

The comment that seems to have upset you was tongue in cheek, (hence the graemlin) so don't get out of your pram.

Jack, Mark & other naysayers,

There most certainly is a requirement that the hunter obtains his CITES import permit before he hunts his leopard and it's that permit that begins the paper trail. Admittedly a lot of people don't bother and admittedly a lot of CITES offices don't know the regulations themselves so don't comment on the fact that an application is late......... however, the point is that the correct way to do it is to obtain that permit first. If anyone has told you otherwise, they're wrong.

That rule applies to every country that's a signatory to the CITES agreement and if you don't believe me, then I suggest you contact your local CITES/F&WS office or look on the websites to check.

Unfortunately the application forms are very confusing because the same form applies to new and old trophies and also live animals and trophies and that might well add to a lot of the common misunderstanding on this matter. Someone asked why the form in one place asks when the animal was shot..... That refers to old trophies that might need to moved for some reason. For example, some years ago, I had to move a tiger skin that had been shot in the 1940s (if I remember correctly) and in that instance, I had to fill in that particular box and incidentally also provide documentary proof of when it was shot.

Mark,

If you're telling your clients they don't have to to obtain their import permit prior to taking the animal, then you're (albeit unwittingly) misleading them on something that could technically, cost them their trophy.

Stop to think about it for a moment and consider if it would be correct for someone to shoot an animal in that CITES schedule when they don't have a CITES permit pre issued to permit it. Even with animals of that catagory that are shot and will remain in the same country, a taxidermist won't accept the trophy without the permit as by doing so, he can be prosecuted.

Incidentally, it should be noted that the permits time expire and it's the permit holders responsibility to ensure that he renews it before the expiration date.

Where Mozambique and the USA is concerned, one needs to be especially careful to dot the Is and cross the Ts simply because USF$WS got the needle with Moz (which is another story completely) just prior to the ivory ban first coming in and they've never forgotten it.

Of course, it could well be that there are also other issues at play here but it doesn't alter the fact that the correct way to get the CITES paper trail going is to start it at the beginning and according to their rules....... it'll also make it faster in the long run.

ADDED,

It might help if I explain why it's done like this.

CITES set and issue the quota for every (signatory) country and they work on the principle that the paper trail for permitting begins with the individual where the trophy will end up.

The hunter obtains the import permit from his local CITES ofice, in the case of the USA, it's the USF$WS that usually handles CITES matters, then gives a copy or at least the number on that permit to the outfitter who then uses it to obtain the export permit etc from whoever handles the CITES permits in the country the animal is hunted in. Sometimes that's the local GD and sometimes the local CITES office and the trail then continues onto CITES. The point is that the export permit can't be issued until after the import permit has been issued and if you wait until the cat has been shot and only apply when you go home afterwards, that logically means a longer delay in getting the export permit issued.

It also just might make the difference in getting a permit at all in the case of a country changing its policy in the interim period OR of CITES deciding to recatagorise the species completely OR suddenly cut the quota for a given country.

(IMO) CITES are a bunch of clowns but there's no getting away from the fact that they're a very powerful bunch of clowns.

Jack,

If your PH and import agent told you you were not required to obtain your import permit beforehand they WERE WRONG.

I'm not being a blowhard at all. If you doubt my qualifications to comment, you'll find plenty on my two websites. I've been in the safari business for a great many years and have learned a heck of a lot in that time.

All I'm trying to do is ensure people get it right so they don't later get stuffed up because they did something wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by Brooks Carmichael:
It is not U.S. customs but USFWS that enforces the cities regulations in concert with U.S. endangered species act. Customs will not clear importation of shipments of wildlife or parts there of until USFWS inspection office clears the shipment. I will disagree with you, Steve respectfully. I do not know where you got your information from. But, your are incorrect when you say you have to get the permit prior. Each country has its own rules on enforcing cities. For example cities allows you to export cheetah's from Namibia. You can import them into to just about any country in the world except U.S. USFWS will not allow you to import them into the U.S. because of the United States endangered species act.

Steve, yes it might have been prudent for Jack to apply for his permit prior to going to Mozamibque, but that is his choice.

I worked with and for USFWS for 34 years so I believe I know what I am talking about. To make sure, the rules had not changed. I contacted a good friend who is Special Agent in Charge with USFWS enforcement. And He said I am correct.

Now that being said, If Mozambique requires a cities permit prior to hunting the leopard that is different. But, USFWS does not.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me that getting a cities permit in advance is a no brainer.

Sure it costs $100. or so but it covers you if the rules change and in africa the rules always change. Not only that but you are dealing with several other govt. agencies in at least two countries and their interpretation of a very complex set of internationally crafted documents. Good luck with all that!

Even tho it was not originally conceived in that vein, the usf&w is as dangerous to the future of hunting as the atf.

So, a prudent person buys a cities up front and renews it if necessary.

Adrian,