Aw man, here we go again.

My hunting buddy followed up for status of our CITIES import permits. We both took nice toms in June.

He received this rather ominous reply today

>>Hi XXX--

Right now, our office is awaiting the detrimental finding to the import of the Sport-hunted trophies of Leopards from Mozambique for the calendar year of 2009. We are hopeful that this scientific study will be received within the next few weeks. Once received, I will be able to forward your permit to the biologist for signature. If you have any additional questions, please contact me.

Thanks,
S----- N------
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
International Affairs
Division of Management Authority
Tel: (703) 358-2XXX<<

Can anyone shed light on what is going on with the USF&W?

Sorry to hear your bad news, but as you're supposed to have your CITES import permit issued before you shoot your Leopard, not after and as USF&FS don't like Moz much, to some degree at least, you're gonna have to live with the hassle.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Sorry to hear your bad news, but you're supposed to have your CITES import permit issued before you shoot your Leopard, not after.

Not what I was advised. In fact, there is a place on the CITIES permit that specifically deals with animals that have been shot.

Where does your information come from?

Whoever advised you otherwise was wrong. It's been a CITES requirement since Leopard went on the list.

Admittedly, a lot of people don't bother but nevertheless it is a requirement and by not getting it issued in advance, the hunter faces the risk of the sort of thing you're now facing.

I guess you didn't visit www.shakariconnection.com as part of your research!

Honest to God, Steve, you never miss a chance to toot your own horn, do you?

Who am I supposed to believe, professionals who are hired to do just this job, or some blowhard who offers high minded opinions, but no real help?

My PH, import agent (two opinions) both said shoot it first. The US CITIES application has areas for both circumstances, for live or dead animals.

AND, if you take the time to READ the reply, there is not an issue with killing the animal first. It is about Moz not filing in the reports on a timely basis

This forum is about sharing our experiences, and in the process maybe, just maybe, helping someone along the way. It is NOT about self aggrandizement.

I am hoping that someone can shed some light on what the real issue is with Moz, and what if anything can be done to get the reports filed.

Have a nice day.

Jack I am sorry I cannot shed any light on the Moz situation. Possibly Ganyana or Toni Wicker can provide some insight. If you need their emails pm/email me.

Hey aren't you headed up to the NWT soon for a Dall? I hope you have a great hunt, I loved my time in the Mackenzie's.

Reg the leopard paperwork, yes, I have been reading the posts and wondering about this too, as sometimes one goes to Africa and only then is presented with the opportunity to shoot a cat. In 03, I did get one for my leopard hunt in Namibia beforehand, but I do not recall anybody wanting to see it until it was time to import the trophy, but this was a few years ago and things change.

Per the US import permit form of which you make reference (bolding added), noting this is not for "renewals" of permits that expired before the trophy could be imported (that is a different form):

quote:

2. IF ANIMAL IS CURRENTLY LIVING IN THE WILD, please enter the following:
a. Country and place (area, region, or ranch AND nearest city) where wildlife is to be taken from the wild:
b. Date wildlife is to be hunted:
c. Description of the trophy and/or parts you intend to import (e.g., skin, skull, shoulder mount, life size mount, claws, horn):

3. IF THE ANIMAL IS DEAD, please enter the following:
a. Country and place (area, region, or ranch AND nearest city) where wildlife was removed from the wild (provide a map if possible):
b. Date wildlife was hunted:
c. Description and size of the trophy and/or parts (e.g., skin, skull, shoulder mount, life size mount, claws, horn):
d. The current location of the trophy (address and country):

and

quote:

I acknowledge that the sport-hunted trophy/trophies to be imported has been/will be personally hunted by me and is being imported only for my personal use

http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-19.pdf

I've been worried about this very thing for some time.

I shot a Leopard in Moz last October, but the Moz government DID insist that I have my CITES import permit in place before they would issue me a license to hunt. This wasn't a USF&W Service rule -- I've had permits issued to me after the fact before, so I know they'll do it -- it was the rule of the Moz government -- at least the "rule" of the guy issuing my license to hunt.

One interesting thing about my import permit was that it rquires me to submit a personal report on my observations about populations; anti-poaching programs; etc. at the time of import. I collected lots of data on this subject while I was there, so it will be no issue to write a report -- but, I've never before had this requirement. It might be a clue regarding the USF&WS issues with Moz??

Subsequently, it took about ten months for the trophies from that hunt to get to my taxidermist in South Africa -- most of that time awaiting Moz government permission for export. So, I actually had to get an extension on my original permit even before the Leopard found its way to South Africa.

Now, my plan is to make certain that the work can be done and the finished Leopard trophy delivered to the US before the extension expires because I had heard rumors (sorry, the source of these rumors has always insisted that I not repeat his name, so I don't) that the USF&W Service has problems with Mozambique generally and is becoming increasingly irritated about (the unrelated) issue of the Mozambique Elephant.

That's all I know. Here's hoping that you get your Leopard without any inconvenience except a short wait -- a wait that is inevitable in any case given Moz' not so timely release of trophies in the normal course of business.

Jack,

First off I'm very sorry to hear that you have yet another trophy import problem. I'm sure it is beyond frustrating.

As for your permit Steve is mistaken. I recommend clients get their CITES before they hunt and take multiple copies with them. Having said that you do notHAVEto do this but it often can expedite shipment.

Good luck with enemy of African conservation and hunting our very own US,F&W.

Mark

Mark is correct you do not have to have your cities for leopard prior to taking the leopard. It can be obtained afterwards. I would give this guy a call since he gave his phone number.

quote:

One interesting thing about my import permit was that it rquires me to submit a personal report on my observations about populations; anti-poaching programs; etc. at the time of import. I collected lots of data on this subject while I was there, so it will be no issue to write a report -- but, I've never before had this requirement. It might be a clue regarding the USF&WS issues with Moz??

OldHandgun Hunter,

On my husband's Marco Polo Sheep import permit,there is a requirement that he submit a report within 30 days of importation regarding horn length, approximate age of animal, number of animals shot at and missed, the number hit, domestic livestock in the area, and a list of other questions.

We were surprised at this condition of the import permit because his two previous import permits for Zimbabwe leopard did not require a report.

I wish you and Jack the best of luck in getting your leopards imported as quickly as possible.

I was advised by USFW to get my CITES leopard permit prior to my April 2009 trip to Namibia. They were most helpful. Part of that process was to write a report on conservation of leopard in Namibia. In fact, if I even thought that I may have an outside chance for any CITES species whilst on safari I would pay the money and get the permits prior to departure.

I had my permit in two weeks. There was an error on the permit. I called them, sent it back FedEx and I had a new CITES for leopard in my hands in four days. All was done well before my safari.

There may be a special problem with MOZ, however, my limited experience with USFW, or any government agency, is to call them and follow their advice. Most government employees do not like to deal with after the fact issues--regardless of whether it is legal. Sometimes it makes for more work, and sometimes they question the legality of the hunt.

I really hope that it works out for you. Good luck.

I just got off the phone with my Import Angel, Maria Felix. Some of you may remember her unwinding my last pile of spaghetti with the USF&W.

She said we are far from hitting the panic button.

Seems Moz, as a other CITIES nation, requires annual reports. They are tardy on this one.

What is needed is a gentle reminder to the powers that be in Moz to get the ball rolling. I seem to be fresh out of Generals I can call, but if anyone is on a first name basis with one, I can use the assist.

Seems like having the permit in hand would have been wise, but we shall see.

Bill, I leave in 13 hours to the territories. Experiencing that last minute frenetic dash and anxiety of did I pack enough/too much?

Old HH, I had the Moz license in hand, would not hunt without it. The one danger bell that rang in your case (congrats on the cat, by the way) is when I did my pre hunt homework- shipping through a second country. Verifying origin and all that. Please make sure your import agent knows the ropes very well, and looks at the paperwork before your cat ships.

Mark, yep, here we go again. Did any of your hunters go to Moz this year? What is the status of their CITIES now?

Africa1, oddly enough I agree with your assessment- The USF&W staff were helpful, but careful.

Kathi, thanks for your support.

If anyone has had a Moz import experience, or a CITIES permit granted this year, I would appreciate the info.

See you all in a few weeks, hopefully with Mister Twister in tow. Cheers!

quote:

Experiencing that last minute frenetic dash and anxiety of did I pack enough/too much?

Well, for whatever it is worth, while making my way home I spent a night at another camp and I watched the "backpack guides" go thru the new batch of hunters bags...lets just say that they went up on the mountain with maybe half of what they brought! I hope you have a great trip, hunting Dall in the mountains is amazing and humbling, a true wilderness experience. Good luck!

Jack:

Sorry to hear about the permit issues. Unsettling news on the eve of your sheep hunt. However, it sounds like a delay rather than a death sentence for your leopard skin and skull. I personally got my permit before I hunted this year, but there is NO requirement that you do it that way.

Go to the NWT, climb high, shoot straight, and get a monster dall. The leopard, I'm sure, will take care of itself in due time. Remember, these things happen, it's Africa.

Good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Jack:

Sorry to hear about the permit issues. Unsettling news on the eve of your sheep hunt. However, it sounds like a delay rather than a death sentence for your leopard skin and skull. I personally got my permit before I hunted this year, but there is NO requirement that you do it that way.

Go to the NWT, climb high, shoot straight, and get a monster dall. The leopard, I'm sure, will take care of itself in due time. Remember, these things happen, it's Africa.

Good hunting!

I think that you're at the right "bottom-line" here. The Leopard permit thing will likely resolve itself over time -- best to just enjoy the hunt and worry about it when/if there's really something to worry about. Life's too short for any other approach.

Jack,

The comment that seems to have upset you was tongue in cheek, (hence the graemlin) so don't get out of your pram.

Jack, Mark & other naysayers,

There most certainly is a requirement that the hunter obtains his CITES import permit before he hunts his leopard and it's that permit that begins the paper trail. Admittedly a lot of people don't bother and admittedly a lot of CITES offices don't know the regulations themselves so don't comment on the fact that an application is late......... however, the point is that the correct way to do it is to obtain that permit first. If anyone has told you otherwise, they're wrong.

That rule applies to every country that's a signatory to the CITES agreement and if you don't believe me, then I suggest you contact your local CITES/F&WS office or look on the websites to check.

Unfortunately the application forms are very confusing because the same form applies to new and old trophies and also live animals and trophies and that might well add to a lot of the common misunderstanding on this matter. Someone asked why the form in one place asks when the animal was shot..... That refers to old trophies that might need to moved for some reason. For example, some years ago, I had to move a tiger skin that had been shot in the 1940s (if I remember correctly) and in that instance, I had to fill in that particular box and incidentally also provide documentary proof of when it was shot.

Mark,

If you're telling your clients they don't have to to obtain their import permit prior to taking the animal, then you're (albeit unwittingly) misleading them on something that could technically, cost them their trophy.

Stop to think about it for a moment and consider if it would be correct for someone to shoot an animal in that CITES schedule when they don't have a CITES permit pre issued to permit it. Even with animals of that catagory that are shot and will remain in the same country, a taxidermist won't accept the trophy without the permit as by doing so, he can be prosecuted.

Incidentally, it should be noted that the permits time expire and it's the permit holders responsibility to ensure that he renews it before the expiration date.

Where Mozambique and the USA is concerned, one needs to be especially careful to dot the Is and cross the Ts simply because USF$WS got the needle with Moz (which is another story completely) just prior to the ivory ban first coming in and they've never forgotten it.

Of course, it could well be that there are also other issues at play here but it doesn't alter the fact that the correct way to get the CITES paper trail going is to start it at the beginning and according to their rules....... it'll also make it faster in the long run.

ADDED,

It might help if I explain why it's done like this.

CITES set and issue the quota for every (signatory) country and they work on the principle that the paper trail for permitting begins with the individual where the trophy will end up.

The hunter obtains the import permit from his local CITES ofice, in the case of the USA, it's the USF$WS that usually handles CITES matters, then gives a copy or at least the number on that permit to the outfitter who then uses it to obtain the export permit etc from whoever handles the CITES permits in the country the animal is hunted in. Sometimes that's the local GD and sometimes the local CITES office and the trail then continues onto CITES. The point is that the export permit can't be issued until after the import permit has been issued and if you wait until the cat has been shot and only apply when you go home afterwards, that logically means a longer delay in getting the export permit issued.

It also just might make the difference in getting a permit at all in the case of a country changing its policy in the interim period OR of CITES deciding to recatagorise the species completely OR suddenly cut the quota for a given country.

(IMO) CITES are a bunch of clowns but there's no getting away from the fact that they're a very powerful bunch of clowns.

Jack,

If your PH and import agent told you you were not required to obtain your import permit beforehand they WERE WRONG.

I'm not being a blowhard at all. If you doubt my qualifications to comment, you'll find plenty on my two websites. I've been in the safari business for a great many years and have learned a heck of a lot in that time.

All I'm trying to do is ensure people get it right so they don't later get stuffed up because they did something wrong!

I was told didnt have to do it ahead of time but it "was highly advised". Ambiguous at best but leans more towards Steve's interpretation than the other.

Where do you US Citizens get off telling "Shakari" what the US Customs rules are! He knows everything about Africa and now tells us he knows everything about our country. Shame on you. Now above all please, please dont confuse him with facts, that just isn't fair!

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Where do you US Citizens get off telling "Shakari" what the US Customs rules are! He knows everything about Africa and now tells us he knows everything about our country. Shame on you. Now above all please, please dont confuse him with facts, that just isn't fair!

Your comment simply shows your ignorance. It's not US customs rules at all, it's CITES regulations. .......... and I'm right!

I was advised to wait until after I shot my leopard (in Namibia) to apply for the Cites. That is what I did and I had no problem. Glad I did because my permit would have expired before I got my Leopard back from the Namibian taxidermist. Yes, I know, I could have reapplied.

Even if Steve is right that is not the way the US is enforcing the rule and the US permit form is clearly unambiguous.

Check the second page of the left hand column here: http://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/salaet.pdf

Where it says:

How long will it take to get an import
permit?
Apply for a permit at least 60 days before
your departure date.

And also the centre column where it says:

What steps should I take?
1. Obtain an import permit from this
office (except for elephants hunted in
Botswana, Namibia, South Africa, and
Zimbabwe). You may want to take a copy
of your permit when you leave on safari
as some outfitters require a client to
show that an import permit has been
issued before scheduling the hunt. Leave
the original permit at home as you will
need to present it at the time the trophy
is imported into the United States.

Note also centre column item 3 which says:

A copy
of the import permit, if
Appenix-I trophies, will
need to be provided by the
person who applies for the
export permit.

DOJ,

I've never pretended to know everything about Africa but I obviously know a bloody sight more about it than you do huh!

Why would you know more about anything than I do?

quote:

How long will it take to get an import
permit?
Apply for a permit at least 60 days before
your departure date.

This only tells one how slow the gov is to act, they are giving fair warning.

You do not need a CITIES permit to hunt Leopard or Elephant only to import same. Why would you need a CITIES permit before hunting. I wasted a few hundered dollars on CITIES bypurchasing it before the hunt. I then got a bit wiser and only purchased it after I was sucessful. Even if it takes 60 days that is plenty of time to forward a copy (a copy not the original) to Africa for the importation papers to be done. Hell who ever heard of an oufitter having the triphies ready quicker than 60 days, get real.

As pretending to know everything, all one has to do is read your many posts to get the feeling (according to you ) you know everything about African hunting, etc. We all know you know everything about SCI, eh.

BEGNO, you post came while I was doing this one and you are another hunter that waited sooo long for their trophies, but you didn't hunt with Steve.

BEGNO as I stated above you don't need a CITIES to hunt and kill and Elephant or Leopard. THAT IS A FACT JACK!

It is not U.S. customs but USFWS that enforces the cities regulations in concert with U.S. endangered species act. Customs will not clear importation of shipments of wildlife or parts there of until USFWS inspection office clears the shipment. I will disagree with you, Steve respectfully. I do not know where you got your information from. But, your are incorrect when you say you have to get the permit prior. Each country has its own rules on enforcing cities. For example cities allows you to export cheetah's from Namibia. You can import them into to just about any country in the world except U.S. USFWS will not allow you to import them into the U.S. because of the United States endangered species act.

Steve, yes it might have been prudent for Jack to apply for his permit prior to going to Mozamibque, but that is his choice.

I worked with and for USFWS for 34 years so I believe I know what I am talking about. To make sure, the rules had not changed. I contacted a good friend who is Special Agent in Charge with USFWS enforcement. And He said I am correct.

Now that being said, If Mozambique requires a cities permit prior to hunting the leopard that is different. But, USFWS does not.

DOJ,

I clearly agree with you, and presently have a set of tusks sitting in Zim that I got in June, and I don't intend to apply for a Cites permit for several months, until the PH tells me that my stuff is nearing completion.

Brooks' explanation is excellent.

From the US Electronic Code of Federal Regulations

e-CFR FAQ

e-CFR Data is current as of July 31, 2009

quote:

§ 23.35 What are the requirements for an import permit?

(e) Prior issuance of an import permit . For Appendix-I specimens, the Management Authority of the exporting country may:

(1) Issue an export permit for live or dead specimens or a re-export certificate for live specimens only after the Management Authority of the importing country has either issued an import permit or confirmed in writing that an import permit will be issued.

(2) Accept oral confirmation from the Management Authority of the importing country that an import permit will be issued in an emergency situation where the life or health of the specimen is threatened and no means of written communication is possible.

(3) Issue a re-export certificate for a dead specimen without confirmation that the import permit has been issued.

This does not seem to mandate an import permit before the hunt; however, it clearly states that a permit must be in hand, or confirmed to be in process, prior to issuance of an export permit.

DOJ

I did say that it's fairly common for people not to apply beforehand as they should and that they can usually get away with it.

No doubt it saves the cost of the permit if they don't shoot their Leopard (as you point out) but by not having the permit beforehand, although you might save yourself a few dollars, all it takes for you to lose the trophy is for the country to suddenly cease issuing quota or for CITES to suspend or limit quota or even move the animal from one schedule to another or even an individual working for the licencing authority to refuse to issue a permit for an animal that's already been shot.

Hell, even the USF&WS say on the link I posted you should get your permit beforehand.

Brooks,

You need to re-read my posts. I did say that in the US it's the F&WS that handle the CITES issues. I also said that who handles CITES issues varies from country to country...... I also explained that USF&WS are especially particular about Mozambique.

Countries might well have their own rules about how they enforce CITES regulations but that doesn't alter the fact that CITES themselves make the rules and those rules are that the permit be obtained beforehand....... which in the case of the US is further stated in the USF&WS website I posted the link to...... so I suggest you tell your friend to read his own employers website.

I don't think I'm right on this, I bloody well know I'm right on it.

This is quite a pissin contest...but my very limited experience has been...A hunter can obtain a CITES permit prior to leaving. he risks spending the money and not connecting...or he can obtain one after he returns IF he is successful...risking a delay in exporting if the process takes longer than expected, or risk of not getting the trophy because of problems between the US fish and game and the local African authorities as it seems is the case in Moz. Now this may not be the intent of the regulation but it is how it was and is being interpreted by many Outfitters and import facilitators who deal with it everyday. I shot my Leopard less than a year ago and it arrived at taxidermist one month ago expidited by a CITES permitobtain in advance of the safari. I was however, advised that it was NOT necesary to obtain a permit unil I returned...but thats not my style so there you have it. I hope the mess gets cleared up for the boys in Moz. Pictures are nice but fur is better!

Steve is appears this subject is a MATTER OF OPINION AND YOUR OPINION DOSEN'T MATTER, because it is wrong on this matter. Why would Brooks know anything he only worked with and for USFWS. This discussion is about US hunters after all.

One other question (serious) do you as a citizen of RSA need a CITIES permit to hunt Leopard in RSA?

DOJ

It's not a matter of opinion and I am right. Read the piece on the USF&WS link I posted. It clearly states that you should apply for your permit beforehand and even recommends you allow at least 60 days to do so.

I'm not a citizen of South Africa but I can tell you that no law abiding South African taxidermist would allow a Leopard trophy (or other animal of the same schedule) onto his premises without the necessary paperwork no matter whether it came from RSA or elsewhere.

I spoke to a local taxidermist recently and it came up in conversation.

If Brooks is right, why does it say the opposite on the USF&WS website. (see the aforementioned link)

Geez guys, let's calm this down. It is certainly true that the conventional wisdom on this board is that one can obtain the CITES permit for Leopard after the fact, and by so doing I believe save $15 or so. This is what I was advised a few years ago for Namibia. The question is : Is this a requirement? We in the USA think of CITIES as just an import requirement, but I think there is more to it than that eg. game management.
Peter.

Lets try this again very slow and simple. What does the word should mean?

What does the word required mean? Of course this is not in the paragraph you reference.

What is the necessary paper work for a citizen of RSA to hunt a CITIES animal in RSA?

I hope these single sentence questions are not too hard to comprehend which also means understand.

As I have said to you before none are so blind as those that won't see.

Peter last year it was $100 who knows what BO has done since 1/20/09.

I've told you the correct procedures, why they should be followed, I've explained why they're there and I've shown you a link to your own issuing authority that confirms what I say and yet you still argue that black is white.

If you need to know more on the matter, I suggest you visit the CITES website, but good luck with that, because it's got to be the most confusing site I've ever come across.

As for South Africa, I've had a few SA clients over the years and I've had SA citizens who live elsewhere as clients and who have taken Leopard but I've never had a South African resident as a client who wanted to take a Leopard in SA (actually, I don't usually hunt 'em in SA) and therefore will only comment on what I know to be true not what I'm not sure of but as I said, no law abiding SA taxidermist would accept any animal on that schedule without the correct paperwork......... as I'm not a taxidermist, I won't comment further.

The answers are there if you can't understand them then you need to take a course in the comprehension of the English language.

Unless anyone has anything sensible to say, I reckon I'm probably out of here!

byeee.

The form does clearly have a place for animals that have already been killed.

I ended up taking my son with me on a hunt on very short notice in 07. He took a leopard and applied for the CITES after the fact. We got it, no problem.

Larry, don't even try.

Does this also apply for ele ivory trophies from Zim? Should one get a CITES before going.

FYI - I got my CITES permit after I shot my Leopard in Namibia, but things change so who knows!

I'll be leaving for Moz two weeks from today and Leopard will be on the bill. My situation is, baits will be hung, checked and if hit, I am hunting Leopard. If they are not hit, then I am not huntings Leopard. This arrangement is between me and my PH as other game is on the agenda.

I contacted US Fish and Wildlife about this very question at hand. They said it "was not" necessary to have the CITES permit prior to hunting a Leopard in Moz and if successful, I could apply and receive the permit after the fact. I was also advised by my PH that waiting until after successfully taking a Leopard that the CITES could be sent later, no problem.

I chose not to obtain prior to the hunt. Have done this several times both ways. I am sure my permit can be applied for, received and sent to Moz long before the said trophy will be ready for shipment. It just might save me getting an extension? Did that once and it seems that is more of a hassel than the original.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Reddy,

You might like to check the link I posted.

Larry,

They've just told me the opposite but I've asked for clarification because the answer was somewhat confusing....... or more accurately, grammatically incorrect and therefore somewhat confusing.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but part of the problem is you are really talking about at least 3 different bureaucracies, CITES (a non-US bureaucracy), US F&W, and US Customs. What the actual CITES regulations are really makes no difference, it is how the USFW and Customs apply them is where the rubber meets the road, at least as far as US citizens are concerned.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I don't have a dog in this fight, but part of the problem is you are really talking about at least 3 different bureaucracies, CITES (a non-US bureaucracy), US F&W, and US Customs. What the actual CITES regulations are really makes no difference, it is how the USFW and Customs apply them is where the rubber meets the road, at least as far as US citizens are concerned.

That's actually a helluva good point.......

The reason for the point I'm making is that if the hunter doesn't apply beforehand, he lays himself open to the possibility of being affected by any changes that might occur at short notice and thereby affect his import.

At the end of the day, it's not a problem to apply beforehand anyway, so why not do it right in the first place?

Sure, it might cost a few extra dollars if you don't shoot your leopard, but by not doing so, it just might cost you your trophy........

Ho Hum, I thought you said you were gone. Some people just can't admit to being wrong. I mean what the F*ck does USF&W know about this.