http://www.dailymaverick.co.za...dustry/#.VaULFPldU1J



Blood Lions: The film that blows the brutal lid off the canned hunting industry

PETER BORCHERT LIFE, ETC 14 JUL 2015 01:17 (SOUTH AFRICA)


“Until such time as the voice of the lion is heard, history will be written to glorify the hunter.” This powerful African proverb reversed out of a plain black screen grips the audience’s attention from the first frames of a riveting documentary. To be premiered on 22 July at the Durban International Film Festival, Blood Lions uncovers the ugly story behind South Africa’s predator breeding and canned lion hunting industry, and a team of filmmakers and conservationists who, with single-minded determination, are campaigning to have it banned. By PETER BORCHERT.

In South Africa there are some 10,000 lions and the numbers are increasing all the time. A conservation success some might aver. But the lie behind this statistic is revealed in the fact that South Africa is the only lion range state that has three separate classifications for these great cats: captive, managed and wild. And so we find that only 3,000 – less than a third – are truly wild and living in designated conservation areas.

The rest, 7,000 or so, live on private farms, mostly in small crowded camps where their social structure is destroyed, not to mention their genetic integrity. The only purpose, despite rather weak attempts to justify the activity as conservation-based or ‘scientific,’ is to breed them.

Young cubs are great drawcards for visitors especially if they can pet them. Slightly older, they provide a rush for visitors who pay to walk with them in the veld. And finally as they grow into the magnificence of adulthood, with flowing manes and faces unblemished, they become handsome targets for trophy hunters. Hundreds more are slaughtered and shipped to the East for the burgeoning lion bone trade.

This, in essence, is the captive lion breeding industry and its inseparable consequence: canned lion hunting. It is a cynical and highly profitable niche industry in South Africa and enjoys a powerful lobby in high places. It is also supported by a seemingly insatiable demand for these guaranteed hunts, particularly from Europe and North America.

Captive breeding conditions

Wildlife campaigner Ian Michler has been exposing the brutality of the industry and calling for its demise for more than 15 years. Blood Lions follows his story, but also draws on the observations of some of Africa’s most respected ecotourism and conservation personalities.


I asked him what first triggered his response to canned hunting and what keeps him lobbying for it to be shut down.

“During the 1990s, I lived in the Okavango Delta and my research there into trophy hunting took me to the canned hunting farms of South Africa. For anyone who has an ecological understanding of the natural world, to witness territorial and apex predators being kept under intensive agricultural conditions is horrifying. And then to find out that they are being bred to be killed by hunters in confined areas defies all sense of integrity.

“I got to see and understand very quickly that there is no basis or justification for this type of behaviour, other than human greed and complete ignorance, that is. And there is also a degree of deception by many of the operators involved so it became obvious why I should stay involved.”

Progress – a long and bumpy road

It has been a long and often bumpy road that Michler and his colleagues have followed, a road that never seems to end. “Do you think that there has been progress towards shutting the industry down?” I ask him.

“There has most certainly been progress,” he responds forcefully. “For example, the recent undertaking by several global airlines never to carry lion trophies or lion parts out of the country, and the Australian government’s decision to ban imports of trophies and body parts demonstrate the growing opposition.

“The release of Blood Lions is another example,” says Michler. “Pippa Hankinson, the inspirational director of Regulus Vision, has been the force behind the film. And this, together with dedicated assistance from a core team of filmmakers and campaigners including Wildlands Conservation Trust, has given us a real opportunity to raise greater awareness at various levels across the world.

“We know there is no conservation value to the breeding practices and it’s an extremely poor, even irresponsible, way to try to educate people about lions and their ecology. There are very few true sanctuaries, and they only exist because of the breeding.

“In addition, my experience is that the vast majority of the world finds breeding lions to be killed by thrill seekers in canned hunts completely inappropriate behaviour. Under these circumstances, there is no logical reason as to why we cannot make further progress with the decision-makers here in South Africa.”

Professional hunters frequently talk about the huge financial contribution they make to the national tourism coffers, but when you compare the actual figures against the total revenue from tourism, trophy hunting is a very small portion. And then canned hunting is again a very small fraction of total hunting revenues.

“This seems to make a lie of the breeders and canned hunting lobby’s claim?” I ask Michler.

He agrees. “When one contextualises the amount generated by the predator breeders and canned hunters, the financial contribution is miniscule. The canned lion hunting contribution is a tiny fraction of 1% of the almost R100-billion South African tourism generates.

“In addition, visitor numbers also tell the story: of the over nine million international foreign arrivals that come into South Africa annually, a mere 9 000 or so are trophy hunters and of these, about only 1 000 or so will be to kill ions in canned hunts.”

Damaging Brand South Africa

“While on the subject of tourism,” I remark, “in the film you have quite a long discussion with the South Africa minister of tourism, Derek Hanekom. He seems distinctly uneasy with canned hunting and sees it as potentially damaging to Brand South Africa. In fact he seemed to suggest that it had already damaged our international reputation as a nation with a proud conservation history. Would you go so far as to call him an ally in your quest?”

“Yes,” Michler responds confidently. “We, the filmmakers and the campaign team that is, view the government in general as an ally as they would not want to damage South Africa’s global reputation on any level. The good thing is that Minister Hanekom and many others understand that by allowing these practices, Brand South Africa is being increasingly damaged around the world.

“My sense is that once the decision-makers understand the full picture and grasp the degree of growing opposition, this will be reflected in the way they respond going forward.”

It’s all about the trophy

At a point in the film Michler says, “You can’t look at predator breeding and canned hunting without addressing the greater trophy hunting issue. At the end of the day people who want to hunt a lion are driven by the same thing: the trophy.” I ask him to elaborate.

“Having researched and written about the trophy hunting industry for almost two decades now, I have come to understand that ultimately, for the vast majority of trophy hunters, it is actually only about the thrill of the kill and then the prize of the trophy. No matter what type of hunt it is, the trophy is non-negotiable. So almost all lion hunters come to Africa in search of that prize; the argument between them simply becomes one about the conditions under which they bagged theirs.

“There is an additional link. The unfortunate part for the wider trophy hunting industry around the world is that they are now stained by canned hunting operations. They could have closed them down ages ago if they had chosen to do so. But they didn’t. Some issued statements against the practice but most of them merely backed away and stayed on the sidelines.

“This has significantly contributed towards the flourishing of the industry. And we now see the likes of PHASA [Professional Hunters Association of South Africa] getting in on the act by trying to justify lion killing through the nuances of word play. It is foolish to attempt a distinction between ‘canned’ and ‘captive’ hunting when it is clear that whatever word one uses, predators are being bred in captivity to be killed in captivity.

“However, one of the positive developments is that we are now starting to see professional hunters making strong stands on ethical grounds against the practices. This may well cause splits within the hunting bodies.

“There are distinctions between sustainable hunting, fair-chase hunting and canned or captive hunting, and given that hunting remains a part of our conservation thinking in South Africa, the film recognises this and is targeted at the breeding and canned or captive hunting sector.”

Botswana’s stand – a great example

I remark that it is interesting to see a country like Botswana taking a stand against trophy hunting and seeing it as an inappropriate practice in this day and age. But they are the only ones really. Even Kenya, which has long prohibited hunting of wildlife, seems to have a powerful groundswell of support for its reintroduction.

“Could this happen?” I ask.

“I think the Botswanan government has shown immense vision,” Michler responds. “And their decision was based on science and conservation as well as the comparable community and economic benefits measured over decades. However, there are vested interests that will play an obstructionist role as they seek to ensure the transition to a non-hunting regime is made as difficult as possible. As is the case when any significant legislative change is introduced, there will be difficult periods for all parties.

“And no, I don’t see hunting being reintroduced in Kenya anytime soon. The link between declining wildlife populations and a ban on trophy hunting in that country has no scientific basis – it is a self-serving argument perpetuated by the hunting lobby. There are a host of socio-economic factors, all compounded by a lack of planning as well as a succession of corrupt governments, that have contributed to Kenya’s woes. And let’s not forget, for many of Kenya’s population groups, hunting wild animals is not part of their cultural heritage.”

Getting into the head of a hunter

One of the more intriguing scenes of the film takes place at an international hunting trade fair in the US. Aside from the mind-boggling amount and variety of weaponry and hunting gear on display, there is also clearly no shortage of hunters happy to speak about their “sport”, often implying that without them all of conservation would simply collapse.

Time and again you hear the claim that hunting purpose-bred lions takes the pressure off wild lion populations and therefore they (the hunters) are supporting conservation. “If lions were not bred for hunting,” it was claimed, “they simply would not be born at all so at least we are giving them a purpose in life.” One female hunter (and there are a surprising number in a supposedly male-dominated industry) said, “I am a wildlife lover, therefore I am a hunter,” while another fellow remarked on “the opportunity to harvest some of God’s creatures”. And most of them say it is not about the killing – and yet that is the desired and inevitable end result.

For a non-hunter it is hard to get inside the head of a hunter, particularly a trophy hunter, and to get any clear idea of why their “sport” is so important to them. Michler has spent so much time meeting and talking to hunters from all over the world, so I ask if he can help to understand the hunter’s psyche.

“I guess this is the very nub of why the debate becomes so heated,” he says. “Firstly, the hunting debate deep down is not about economics and communities and conservation – it is actually about philosophy and a world view not dissimilar to the way debates on the death penalty, same-sex marriage, abortion or racism rage around the world.

“The comments you mention above are views being expressed about the way these people see and understand their world. The science and economics, which is available in support of all views, then becomes part of the bias. The film then also asks viewers whether the only purpose lions have is to be born for hunters to kill, whether their interpretation of hunting is Biblical, and whether only hunters are able to be lovers of wildlife.”

Exposing the bad – a risky business?

One of the central arcs of the film follows a genuine hunter on a trophy hunt on a farm specialising in canned hunting. These are extremely tense scenes, shot through with menace. Michler has been in many of these highly charged situations and I ask to what extent is it all bluster and bullying, or whether he has feared for his safety at times.

“There is certainly a theme of brutality that runs through these practices,” he says. “Bullying or not, the moment can be very disturbing, but I would like to think that when push comes to shove one’s personal safety is not at risk.”

At the end of the film I am left with a sense that Blood Lions really does allow the voice of the lion to be heard. Certainly this film does nothing to glorify the hunter and I have no doubt that there will be angry responses to its release. I ask Michler where will it be shown and what he hopes will come out of it?

“The film will be shown globally,” he responds. “We have already been accepted into a number of international film festivals and there will be screenings in parliaments around the world as well as to select audiences of decision-makers.

The campaign will also embrace bringing awareness at various levels, including schools and universities. “There is sure to be opposition as the operators and their clients at the core of canned hunting will see us undermining their livelihoods and their cherished pastime. We hope to go beyond that as ultimately Blood Lions seeks to bring an end to the exploitative breeding of predators and the killing of them under canned or captive conditions.” DM

July 22nd. Not long to wait. This should prove interesting. A hot, divisive topic, that is bound to generate a lot of negative publicity, given the current political climate with regards to trophy hunting of our charismatic mega-fauna.

Due to the timing, how problematic will this prove to be? It is a topic that has been simmering for some time and I won't be surprised if it acts as the straw that broke the camels back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqSUsrPw8Hw


Blood Lions clip on you tube.

Make no mistake - their goal is not the elimination of canned lion hunting. It is elimination of ALL hunting!

The comments about Botswana reveal the real agenda!

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Powell:
Make no mistake - their goal is not the elimination of canned lion hunting. It is elimination of ALL hunting!

The comments about Botswana reveal the real agenda!

Scott,

You are 100% right. Read the viewer comments on the videos, they are frightening.

However, at times we do not do ourselves any favors with some of our actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott Powell:
Make no mistake - their goal is not the elimination of canned lion hunting. It is elimination of ALL hunting!

The comments about Botswana reveal the real agenda!

Exactly!

On the surface, they are putting out that they are against breeding an animal to be killed!!

Reality, is, they hate hunters and hunting, and they are playing on the sentiments of the city dwellers who believe their meat comes ready packed on a super marker shelf, while no animals were harmed!

It is really amazing to see those so called "conservationists" cower in utter ignorance once one starts asking them questions about their own feeding habits!

And the same goes to those of us who are so adamant against breeding lions for hunting too.

They are already half way agreeing with the other side!

quote:

And the same goes to those of us who are so adamant against breeding lions for hunting too.

Not so much the breeding but more so in the manner that they get "hunted".

Breeding them in a pen, hand-fed (on steroids), shampooed and blow dried and then taken out half drugged and shot is not exactly my cup of tea.
The so called "release rule" is pure bullshit as the animal cannot adjust itself in such a short time span and the outfitter/breeder cannot afford/risk losing it if let loose for a longer period.

I do believe in Lion management in a large area similar to the Timbavati where these cats are permitted to breed and fend for themselves in a natural environment.

Saeed got to agree with you on this one, they always go for the emotional animals, lions rhino elephants, but there goal is all hunting, in ALL FORMS NOT JUST HIGH FENCE!! But US hunters OR shooters are some of us are called, Will NOW have another 10 page discussion on how unethical it is and it is not real hunting bla bla bla, instead of just for once in our life's stand together. It is not just FENCED LIONS, CANNED LIONS CALL THEM WHAT EVER YOU WANT It is ALL HUNTING THEY ARE AFTER!

Folks the thin edge of the wedge has hit Oz already.
Not long ago it was a total ban on elephant products, if memory serves around the time all the bull shit PAC was happening around Hwange.
Just recently we have had beeding heart pollys wanting a total ban on any one trying to go to South Africa to hunt period! We got let off lightly with a total ban on all lion parts, just lucky hey!
Both animals are CITES 2 but we cannot import a legitimate CITES sanctioned trophy or part of. It sort of makes CITES irrelevant.
Those out there that want the quick buck and harbour unethical greedy short term abition are screwing it for the rest of us.
Stu

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

And the same goes to those of us who are so adamant against breeding lions for hunting too.

Not so much the breeding but more so in the manner that they get "hunted".

Breeding them in a pen, hand-fed (on steroids), shampooed and blow dried and then taken out half drugged and shot is not exactly my cup of tea.
The so called "release rule" is pure bullshit as the animal cannot adjust itself in such a short time span and the outfitter/breeder cannot afford/risk losing it if let loose for a longer period.

I do believe in Lion management in a large area similar to the Timbavati where these cats are permitted to breed and fend for themselves in a natural environment.

It is not my cup of tea either, but I would never tell anyone else not to hunt them.

I've been saying for a number of years that the antis would use the canned lion shooting issue to beat us over the head with when they felt the time was ripe and that for years,we have been giving them the ammunition they needed to do so.

I also repeatedly said that if we didn't police ourselves and maintain proper/high ethical standards, someone else would end up doing it for us and that when the antis did make their move, they'd attack all hunting, including legitimate trophy sport hunting rather than just the canned shooting industry and that's exactly what's happened.

I hate to say I told you so but I did and quite honestly, (IMO) this attack is entirely the fault of not only the canned shooting industry but also those who used it AND those that defended it.

Personally, I don't think we'll ever regain what's lost but I do think that we just might be able to retain at least some of what's left but only if we start to set far better/higher standards for ourselves than we currently do.

I for one don't believe in these hunts if that's what you want to call it. The discussion that this is good for wild lion populations is all nonsense I just don't see how! This ongoing discussion and exposure will only convert neutral people in to anti-hunters.

Hunting is all about the whole experience not just a trophy on your wall at any cost. Despite many here publicly agreeing to this, when it comes to it principles get thrown out of the window. I know hunters who have failed on wild lion hunts make the trip to SA to shoot one of these, what did they achieve? I know respected booking agents who have told me privately they far prefer to book these hunts where the outcome is guaranteed than face a client who has just blown close to $100K and come home empty handed!

For all you that say this kind of hunt is not for me or I told you this would get used by the antis. Then dont do this kind of hunt then but talking bad about it helps one side and that is not hunters. The i told you is pure bs as they just see a chance to take a shot now.They just tried making it hard to take guns to africa but they really went no were. They stopped ele parts from being brought back which in turn stop must american from wanting to hunt them now like they were.If it was not this it would be some other kind of hunting they would use. I do believe they just went after the guy hunting a wild rhino in namibia so they dont care what is hunted. Wild or raised makes no difference to them.

Then bringing up stuff that happened many years ago helps who. I am amazed how some of you make it over there to see how ever lion is raised and released. How they get drugged and never released when they are to be. Some of you need to get a clue how animals turn right back to what they do in nature even if raised. I would bet a lion just released will kill someone just as quick as any other lion.

The facts are some hunters are ok with this kind of hunt and I am one of them. People raise animals for a use and I dont care if it is a chicken or a lion. For those that think there above this hope you dont eat raised chickens or cows because that would just show how fake you all are on this raised animal subject.

Well when I look at this situation I don't care what anyones personal opinion is about the 'canned lion' hunts........... what concerns me is the end result of all of the factors weighing in on us. The anti's are pro-active and better funded. They know exactly which issues to pick and run with, issues that will sway everyday non-hunters to their side. Issues that politicians know can be used to further their positions and which the average everyday schmuck will find distasteful and want to see banned.

When the end result is doors closing everywhere to lion hunters of all types, followed closely by elephant hunters, and trophy hunters in general, it really won't matter which camp you are in. Saying fuck the anti's is nice but in the end it isn't them who is going to get screwed.

Like it or not, legal or not............ the canned lion hunts are going to be used as a club, a very heavy one. We as hunters spend our time running around after the fact, trying to put out fires. The enemy is proactive and we are reactive.

We supply them with ammunition and then wonder why they pull the trigger. If we do not get a whole lot smarter at playing the game the end result is a sure thing and, like Cal, I think it is already probably too late. I do know that completely ignoring that some of our own actions are contributing to our death by a thousand cuts is really quite naive.

We need to be more cognizant of how our species thinks these days and adapt or disappear. When you are a group that makes up a tiny fraction of the overall population base, simply knowing you are in the right is just not good enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Well when I look at this situation I don't care what anyones personal opinion is about the 'canned lion' hunts........... what concerns me is the end result of all of the factors weighing in on us. The anti's are pro-active and better funded. They know exactly which issues to pick and run with, issues that will sway everyday non-hunters to their side. Issues that politicians know can be used to further their positions and which the average everyday schmuck will find distasteful and want to see banned.

When the end result is doors closing everywhere to lion hunters of all types, followed closely by elephant hunters, and trophy hunters in general. It really won't matter which camp you are in. Saying fuck the anti's is nice but in the end it isn't them who is going to get screwed.

Like it or not, legal or not............ the canned lion hunts are going to be used as a club, a very heavy one. We as hunters spend our time running around after the fact, trying to put out fires. The enemy is proactive and we are reactive.

We supply them with ammunition and then wonder why they pull the trigger. If we do not get a whole lot smarter at playing the game the end result is a sure thing and Like Cal, I think it is already probably too late. I do know that completely ignoring that some of our own actions are contributing to our death by a thousand cuts is really quite naive.

We need to be more cognizant of how our species things these days and adapt or disappear. When you are a group that makes up a tiny fraction of the overall population base, simply knowing you are in the right is just not good enough.

+1

Shakari , Reddy and skyline

When there's no hunting left you can all argue about how to play golf "properly".

You are correct of course.

In the final analysis, social media has not been the hunters friend.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
You are correct of course.

In the final analysis, social media has not been the hunters friend.

I'd say a far more accurate statement is that one of the biggest problems is the hunter's use of social media has not been the hunters friend.

The Tam Safaris You Tube videos being a good example (particularly) in this case.

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
Well when I look at this situation I don't care what anyones personal opinion is about the 'canned lion' hunts........... what concerns me is the end result of all of the factors weighing in on us. The anti's are pro-active and better funded. They know exactly which issues to pick and run with, issues that will sway everyday non-hunters to their side. Issues that politicians know can be used to further their positions and which the average everyday schmuck will find distasteful and want to see banned.

When the end result is doors closing everywhere to lion hunters of all types, followed closely by elephant hunters, and trophy hunters in general, it really won't matter which camp you are in. Saying fuck the anti's is nice but in the end it isn't them who is going to get screwed.

Like it or not, legal or not............ the canned lion hunts are going to be used as a club, a very heavy one. We as hunters spend our time running around after the fact, trying to put out fires. The enemy is proactive and we are reactive.

We supply them with ammunition and then wonder why they pull the trigger. If we do not get a whole lot smarter at playing the game the end result is a sure thing and, like Cal, I think it is already probably too late. I do know that completely ignoring that some of our own actions are contributing to our death by a thousand cuts is really quite naive.

We need to be more cognizant of how our species thinks these days and adapt or disappear. When you are a group that makes up a tiny fraction of the overall population base, simply knowing you are in the right is just not good enough.

I liken this situation to the jackasses that open carry AR-15's in Wal Mart and airports. There is nobody that is more pro 2nd amendment than me and I will fight for our right to open carry. But just because you can, does not mean that you should. Every time a picture of Bubba is shown with a rifle in Wal Mart it hurts us.

Same thing with hunting. I will always support hunters rights. There is a segment of the population that believes all hunting is wrong. There is a huge segment that hunt casually or have friends and family that hunt. They neither support it or protest it. Many ask questions about hunting in Africa with enthusiasm. Some are surprised you can hunt elephant or lion. These are the people the anti's are targeting with their film and propaganda. We make it so easy for the anti's to lead the charge with the canned lion hunting in South Africa. While I feel the public in general supports hunting I cannot see them supporting canned lion hunts.

quote:

The facts are some hunters are ok with this kind of hunt and I am one of them. People raise animals for a use and I dont care if it is a chicken or a lion. For those that think there above this hope you dont eat raised chickens or cows because that would just show how fake you all are on this raised animal subject.

To compare raising chickens to lions is ludicrous. One is a domesticated animal intended for eggs and meat, the other is traditionally a wild animal that is considered the king of the beast. I suppose we should shoot and eat our pets as there is no difference in them either.

IMO the hunting industry made a mistake letting the canned hunt operators tar the whole hunting community with the same brush, death by association.

Sticking togethers all very well but sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand.

Pictures of overweight hunters posing next to what are clearly pen bred lions (no wild lion looks that immaculate) predictably bring out some extreme reactions, not just antis but the general public. Its they who will ultimately decide.

quote:

Originally posted by citizenh:
IMO the hunting industry made a mistake letting the canned hunt operators tar the whole hunting community with the same brush, death by association.

Sticking togethers all very well but sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand.

Pictures of overweight hunters posing next to what are clearly pen bred lions (no wild lion looks that immaculate) predictably bring out some extreme reactions, not just antis but the general public. Its they who will ultimately decide.

There both animals with a end value that we as people but on them. I know we all like to think africa is different and the ways of the world dont apply. They are all animals be it a giraffe ,lion,buff or a rabbit.Keep your head in the sand if you like but they dont care what animal it is they want hunting stopped.

It was the king of the beast till guns came around now it is just another animal that man hunts for sport. Like it or not the cheap shot and attack by hunters towards other hunters does way more damage then raised lions. WE fight they win period. Time some get off there high horse. I just find it funny some of you think they would not just find another reason to come after us. You dont think they watch to see what we fight about and go for that at all.

Have mistakes been made by hunters and outfitters you bet. Some common sense would go a long way for us. Someone brings up the tam safari video which is bad but anyone thinking the video of some drunk ph who hunt a so called wild lion is helping us your crazy. Dont just pick who or what you think is right to make others feel good. Pick what help all hunters be it trophy hunters or meat hunters raised game or wild game. That how we win by supporting all hunting that is legal.

Some movie comes out and what do us hunters do point fingers at each other. So who is winning. Maybe are side needs to do a video and show why hunting helps wildlife. Not like we cant prove there ideas dont work. Just show the public how when hunting stopped in kenya the wildlife got slaughtered and kill at a faster rate then when hunting was opened. Show them how hunting helps some of the poor countries and get people working.

Oh hell with that lets just fight with each other it is easier to blame each other.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

And the same goes to those of us who are so adamant against breeding lions for hunting too.

Not so much the breeding but more so in the manner that they get "hunted".

Breeding them in a pen, hand-fed (on steroids), shampooed and blow dried and then taken out half drugged and shot is not exactly my cup of tea.
The so called "release rule" is pure bullshit as the animal cannot adjust itself in such a short time span and the outfitter/breeder cannot afford/risk losing it if let loose for a longer period.

Agree 100%. It's a joke.

The joke is that some think all the lions are hand feed and drugged. Let alone cleaned up like pets. I am sorry I missed all of you in camp when my son hunted his raised lioness. You must of all left after watching all this go down. Stop drinking the cool aid being feed by some or bringing up things that happen when the raising of lions started years ago.

Funny jgraider I thought you only looked at this to keep track of what the antis are doing. I knew it was bs when you said it and brought the post over to the other site. Just another hunter who thinks he is helping by being what he needs to be to fit in depending on were he is I guess.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
There both animals with a end value that we as people but on them. I know we all like to think africa is different and the ways of the world dont apply. They are all animals be it a giraffe ,lion,buff or a rabbit.Keep your head in the sand if you like but they dont care what animal it is they want hunting stopped.

It was the king of the beast till guns came around now it is just another animal that man hunts for sport. Like it or not the cheap shot and attack by hunters towards other hunters does way more damage then raised lions. WE fight they win period. Time some get off there high horse. I just find it funny some of you think they would not just find another reason to come after us. You dont think they watch to see what we fight about and go for that at all.

Have mistakes been made by hunters and outfitters you bet. Some common sense would go a long way for us. Someone brings up the tam safari video which is bad but anyone thinking the video of some drunk ph who hunt a so called wild lion is helping us your crazy. Dont just pick who or what you think is right to make others feel good. Pick what help all hunters be it trophy hunters or meat hunters raised game or wild game. That how we win by supporting all hunting that is legal.

Some movie comes out and what do us hunters do point fingers at each other. So who is winning. Maybe are side needs to do a video and show why hunting helps wildlife. Not like we cant prove there ideas dont work. Just show the public how when hunting stopped in kenya the wildlife got slaughtered and kill at a faster rate then when hunting was opened. Show them how hunting helps some of the poor countries and get people working.

Oh hell with that lets just fight with each other it is easier to blame each other.

1. 'They are all animals'. Subjective. I agree with you to a point but good luck convincing the general public. At the end of the day you are on a hiding to nothing if you think you're gonna win this one.

2. 'Hunting helps wildlife'. Yes it does - you are preaching to the converted! But that's where the comparison ends because canned hunting has nothing to do with conservation and everything to do with instant gratification thrill kills/livestock raising.

I know there are crazies - on both sides might I add - but you have to believe in the middle ground. Contrary to what some might believe, 'not giving an inch' is not the way to go. Not when you are trying to convince the moderate/disinterested majority.

It is a shame that videos like these are not widely released and viewed.

Sport hunting pays for conservation of endangered species but seldom is recognized for it efforts.

The last video is very good and has been posted here previously.

http://bubyevalleyconservancy.com/

When all the arguments are made and done it boils down to one issue.

The hunters and the antis (both minorities) have to convince the non-hunting public (the majority) whether captive bred lions are an acceptable animal to hunt or not - regardless of the actual circumstances of the hunt.

If anyone thinks that the hunters arguments will prevail they must be living in La La Land. And when the non-hunting public decides that this is not acceptable it will have repercussions far beyond this specific hunt as it will paint hunters in a very negative light.

Don't go on shouting about the antis and their agenda to ban all hunting. That is an established fact. Lets focus on getting the majority on our side.

P.S. And please refrain from comparing lions to cows and chickens. In the US, government funds are allocated towards rearing pheasant for release in hunting areas. Good luck trying that with an iconic animal.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:


P.S. And please refrain from comparing lions to cows and chickens. In the US, government funds are allocated towards rearing pheasant for release in hunting areas. Good luck trying that with an iconic animal.

Again as hunters what one finds as iconic may not mean anything to another. To a guy growing up in the mid west a pheasant is iconic as a lion to others. Because some of us like hunting africa that does not make other game less of a value or worth fighting for.

Again to win it is not about picking what animal we may like or want to hunt. It is about fighting for all hunting. There is more in the middle that can be turned to our side with out giving one inch but it takes work.
When people see my son has taken a lioness they dont ask if it was wild or raised. They ask how do I think it was ok to hunt a lion since they are almost all gone in the wild. Hell some think we poached or hunted a lion that was not legal.When I tell them the truth a whole bunch of them understood and had no problem with it at all. Most of the public has no idea of what hunting is anymore.

Respectfully, I think you missed my point entirely. It's what is iconic to the general public not to hunters. The general public has quite different opinions on hunting raised pheasants vs. raised lions.

quote:

Originally posted by vvreddy:
Respectfully, I think you missed my point entirely. It's what is iconic to the general public not to hunters. The general public has quite different opinions on hunting raised pheasants vs. raised lions.

My point is most of the public has no opinion on hunting really. They get opinions when there feed bs like this movie does. Then they get more of a opinion when they see hunters saying nothing to prove the bs wrong.

Giving up or fighting over this does nothing for hunting.If they win this battle they will go after the next animal they want saved period. So all you who hate this kind of hunting just better hope they dont decide hunting leopard over bait is wrong because that could be next. maybe zebra or giraffe as they are so cute to so maybe that will next.

This the same as the high fence deer breeding "business" in many places in the U.S.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
The joke is that some think all the lions are hand feed and drugged. Let alone cleaned up like pets. I am sorry I missed all of you in camp when my son hunted his raised lioness. You must of all left after watching all this go down. Stop drinking the cool aid being feed by some or bringing up things that happen when the raising of lions started years ago.

Funny jgraider I thought you only looked at this to keep track of what the antis are doing. I knew it was bs when you said it and brought the post over to the other site. Just another hunter who thinks he is helping by being what he needs to be to fit in depending on were he is I guess.

Some, if not many, of them are drugged bc. There have been 3 archery "hunts" on TV where the hunters walked up to within 30 yards of a lion laying under a bush, arrowed the thing, then celebrated. Andy Ross, Jim Burnsworth, and the Pigman. That doesn't do hunters any favors.

I do like knowing what the antis are doing, which is the answer I gave you on the other forum. You don't believe it.....I don't care.

Well I for one never said they were hunters I looked up to. I am basing my thoughts on the raised lioness my son hunted. Was sure not drugged when she came walking by and then charged him after the first shot. Covered about 50 yds in 2 or 3 seconds till his 3 shot put here down. I my facts are true as to a lion hunt i was on. Were you there on the 3 you talked about.

More then likely what happen was the the 3 lions you talked about were tracked for hours then found a place to get out of the heat and or hide. Hunters found them and the lions held there ground when cornered. Do I like how those hunts come off hell no but not to fond of the lion hunt on the dsc show taken over bait either. To anti hunters they all look the same. It all ends up to be a dead lion and they dont like that. The man problem is how times have changed and the shows do the real damage to hunters. Hunter fighting with others you think is doing us hunter a favor.

You say "more than likely", therefore you're just guessing. I don't know if they were drugged or not, as I wasn't there, and neither do you. The man I watched one of the episodes (Andy Ross hunt)with, a veterean of 31 safaris including 2 lions from Moz, said the lion acted drugged, so I choose to believe him, rather than someone like you, who participates in high fenced, penned raised lion hunting, and pimps hunts for a high fence SA Operator. It's all legal, so more power to you.

My way of hunting isn't necessarily better than your way, and my thoughts on hunting aren't necessarily better than your way, they're just, obviously, much different.

Just curious, are you from E PA, or W PA?

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
Well I for one never said they were hunters I looked up to. I am basing my thoughts on the raised lioness my son hunted. Was sure not drugged when she came walking by and then charged him after the first shot. Covered about 50 yds in 2 or 3 seconds till his 3 shot put here down. I my facts are true as to a lion hunt i was on. Were you there on the 3 you talked about.

More then likely what happen was the the 3 lions you talked about were tracked for hours then found a place to get out of the heat and or hide. Hunters found them and the lions held there ground when cornered. Do I like how those hunts come off hell no but not to fond of the lion hunt on the dsc show taken over bait either. To anti hunters they all look the same. It all ends up to be a dead lion and they dont like that. The man problem is how times have changed and the shows do the real damage to hunters. Hunter fighting with others you think is doing us hunter a favor.

If you are in the business off selling chattle shoots make sure you sugar coat it into being better than a real wild lion hunt

Mike

I am from e pa. I am not guessing on my sons hunt was right there so I am giving facts on that hunt. Your talking about storys that you were not there at and dont know all the facts about. You bring it up hoping it makes your points but have no idea. So my real life story that happened or your I heard this story. Who has have more facts. I dont care if he had 50 safaris if he did the hunt and took the lion that he thought was drug he was wrong for doing so.

It is pretty common knowledge raised lion dont act like wild lions. Raised lions lose there fear of man since there around them more. Wild lions will run and try to get away more as men are always looked at by them as danger. I am not here saying they are the same kind of hunt but a hunt they both are.

I myself dont push any hunts on anyone. I answer question for people and try to book hunts people ask for if I can with paw print. Tell them if it is high fenced or free range.

As for sugar coating it not something I like to do. I know to some how could a raise lioness be a hunt after all sitting in a blind over a bait is way harder after all because it happens in moz not SA.

My main point on all of this is go ahead help the antis stop this. Just dont come crying to the rest of us hunters which is the bigger group and who is ok with high fence hunts in africa or the states. When they want your wild lion or ele hunt stopped I will take the road of who cares now.Do nothing to help and I can tell you I am not the only who feels like this.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
I am from e pa. I am not guessing on my sons hunt was right there so I am giving facts on that hunt. Your talking about storys that you were not there at and dont know all the facts about. You bring it up hoping it makes your points but have no idea. So my real life story that happened or your I heard this story. Who has have more facts. I dont care if he had 50 safaris if he did the hunt and took the lion that he thought was drug he was wrong for doing so.

It is pretty common knowledge raised lion dont act like wild lions. Raised lions lose there fear of man since there around them more. Wild lions will run and try to get away more as men are always looked at by them as danger. I am not here saying they are the same kind of hunt but a hunt they both are.

I myself dont push any hunts on anyone. I answer question for people and try to book hunts people ask for if I can with paw print. Tell them if it is high fenced or free range.

As for sugar coating it not something I like to do. I know to some how could a raise lioness be a hunt after all sitting in a blind over a bait is way harder after all because it happens in moz not SA.

My main point on all of this is go ahead help the antis stop this. Just dont come crying to the rest of us hunters which is the bigger group and who is ok with high fence hunts in africa or the states. When they want your wild lion or ele hunt stopped I will take the road of who cares now.Do nothing to help and I can tell you I am not the only who feels like this.

Bcap:

Here is the difference: one is a hunt, because the outcome is uncertain. The other is a shoot, because the outcome is certain.

Has anyone ever heard of a lion hunt in RSA that was not successful? Anyone? Bcap?

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:
I am from e pa. I am not guessing on my sons hunt was right there so I am giving facts on that hunt. Your talking about storys that you were not there at and dont know all the facts about. You bring it up hoping it makes your points but have no idea. So my real life story that happened or your I heard this story. Who has have more facts. I dont care if he had 50 safaris if he did the hunt and took the lion that he thought was drug he was wrong for doing so.

It is pretty common knowledge raised lion dont act like wild lions. Raised lions lose there fear of man since there around them more. Wild lions will run and try to get away more as men are always looked at by them as danger. I am not here saying they are the same kind of hunt but a hunt they both are.

I myself dont push any hunts on anyone. I answer question for people and try to book hunts people ask for if I can with paw print. Tell them if it is high fenced or free range.

As for sugar coating it not something I like to do. I know to some how could a raise lioness be a hunt after all sitting in a blind over a bait is way harder after all because it happens in moz not SA.

My main point on all of this is go ahead help the antis stop this. Just dont come crying to the rest of us hunters which is the bigger group and who is ok with high fence hunts in africa or the states. When they want your wild lion or ele hunt stopped I will take the road of who cares now.Do nothing to help and I can tell you I am not the only who feels like this.

Bcap:

Here is the difference: one is a hunt, because the outcome is uncertain. The other is a shoot, because the outcome is certain.

Has anyone ever heard of a lion hunt in RSA that was not successful? Anyone? Bcap?

If one can't tell the difference between a hunt and a shoot and is selling/promoting shoots as hunts under the sincere belief that shoots are hunts hope the clients are more informed and rational.

Mike

Have only heard of one but was not there to see it or find out why. So unlike must of you I will not make up a story to suit me. You guys just keep beating your drum it is all good with me. Again you must all follow your ph's better then me and just are over the top awesome hunters. With your logic I guess most hunts in africa are shoots. We follow a tracker or ph who must often spots or tracks the game then gets you ready for the shot. Wow I guess africa is just shooting.
I for sure as hell dont need either of you 2 great hunters to tell me what a hunt is.

But hey you just keep fighting with other hunters it will for sure help you in the end.