Guys,

I was hunting on a ranch in RSA this year that was very into promoting alternative colour phases in the animals. Now we have all seen or shot the white or black springbuck or blesbuck, but things seem to be going further.

Black Impala are begining to be mentioned and I saw a progressively darkening zebra that the owner tells me was getting darker with every generation. Adverts for the Golden Gnu which i understand is a blue wildebeest by any other name, (please correct me if I'm wrong) were in the back of african outfitter.

Basically all I'm getting at is whether or not we seem to be heading towards the breeding of anomalies specifically for the collector hunter and should this happen?

Personally I'm not massively motivated by colours primarily because I don't see why a white springbuck should be three times the cost of a brown one. However when I found the white blesbucks for the same price as a regular one, I shot the white in preference for novelty value.

Rgds,
K

quote:

we seem to be heading towards the breeding of anomalies specifically for the collector

Fallow Buck:

Unfortunately this is where its heading!

If the breeders want to bastardize a natural species I guess there is no law against it but the hunting fraternity, local hunting authorities and those "Top 10 most powerful individuals of the hunting industry" are the ones who need to ensure that these "test-tube trophies" never find their way to official recognition and hopefully kill any future for such malpractice. (IMO)

I don't have even the slightest interest in shooting them.

As far as I'm concerned, all of the human-bred color phases of wild game are singularly disinteresting as hunting quarry. They fall into the category of livestock rather than wild game. Besides, the "regular" springbock is much prettier than any of the color-bred animals.

Many of the African antelopes are close enough genetically that they can successfully interbreed. Are we really interested in shooting a "test tube" hybrid of a Kudu and Nyala? How about a donkey-Hartmann zebra hybrid? On the other hand, stalking a hybrid of Tony Blair and a chacma baboon might be worthwhile!

You mention the Black Impala. I am given to understand that it is a natural subspecies which is not a result of human-influenced breeding and thus is a rather rare and unique trophy.

Scott Haghlajflkdsjflajfklsdjn of Sporthill's new show was hunting the seriously important "slam of springbuck" last week with Tam "Canned Lion Sham" Safaris. Yeah I turned that one off in a hurry!!!

Brett

Check out these

Hybrids

Perfect opportunity for SCI record book braggers to add to their "circle collections". I'll stick with the natural ones, thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
As far as I'm concerned, all of the human-bred color phases of wild game are singularly disinteresting as hunting quarry. They fall into the category of livestock rather than wild game. Besides, the "regular" springbock is much prettier than any of the color-bred animals.

Many of the African antelopes are close enough genetically that they can successfully interbreed. Are we really interested in shooting a "test tube" hybrid of a Kudu and Nyala? How about a donkey-Hartmann zebra hybrid? On the other hand, stalking a hybrid of Tony Blair and a chacma baboon might be worthwhile!

You mention the Black Impala. I am given to understand that it is a natural subspecies which is not a result of human-influenced breeding and thus is a rather rare and unique trophy.

Natural hybrids are quite interesting like the polar-grizzley, and many of the duck hybrids (hybridization with mallards is the biggest part of the decline in black ducks), and their rarity as a "freak of nature" makes them an intersting trophy, and that is the only way I'd want to take one.

Kiri

Talked to a guy a couple of days ago. He has some connection with Ovis and is a well known TV long range shooter. He told me Ovis is thinking of offering a new slam. Yep! Springbok of every color phase but they need to be shot at 500 yards or more to qualify. Whatever! It wouldn't interest me personally for several reasons.

Mark

I haveno idea why some wants to shoot a special breed springbuck! I hunt wild natural animals!

quote:

Natural hybrids are quite interesting like the polar-grizzley, and many of the duck hybrids (hybridization with mallards is the biggest part of the decline in black ducks), and their rarity as a "freak of nature" makes them an intersting trophy, and that is the only way I'd want to take one.

Agreed! The mule deer is believed to be a hybrid of whitetails and Pacific Coast blacktail deer, and is only about 5,000 years old. I don't think anyone would question the trophy value or ligitimacy of a mule deer.

The auroch was the wild ancestor of all European cattle. It's huge and powerfully muscled frame combined with massive horns would have made a hunting trophy that shames a Cape Buffalo. But I have no interest in shooting one of it's human-bred descendants like an Angus or Hereford.

I've never hunted Africa, but have literally ZERO interest in ever shooting a white, black, etc. springbok

Funnily enough though, I do have a brown color-phase black bear on my floor in front of the fireplace. Would love to go back and hunt a black one

Bake

This is a pitiful attempt by selfish, low self-esteem folks to try to belong to the smallest group in order to be at the top, or as close to it as possible in order to feed their ego. It has nothing to do with hunting, sport or anything close to it. It is a game and having the most of the rarest, to them, makes them the winners. Very, very sad.

From my understanding, the white Blesbok is a natural occurring color phase in Blesbok. I had a conversation with a Blesbok breeder (we raises them for meat primarily) and he only had two whites amongst thousands of common Blesbok. I asked why he didn't have more and he said because those were the only two that had been born. Both from common ewe's. I suppose this is similar to why two black labs can produce several colors of pups. I had previously assumed that white Blesbok were created by unnatural means.
LDK

Remind me to never share a pic of a white or black springbok in the company of the AR elite...

God forbid anyone want one just because they like the way they look and not for some "inner" circlejerk.. I do not hunt for any club, status, or "book".. I would shoot one based solely on the fact that I find them pleasing.. The ones I've ever seen were just as wild (or tame in the Blesbok's case) as the common colored ones.

...maybe on second thought I'll share the pics just for the spite of it when I decide to hunt a colored springbok.

Remind me to never share a pic of a white or black springbok in the company of the AR elite...

God forbid anyone want one just because they like the way they look and not for some "inner" circlejerk.. I do not hunt for any club, status, or "book".. I would shoot one based solely on the fact that I find them pleasing.. The few I've ever seen were just as wild (or tame in the Blesbok's case) as the common colored ones.

...maybe on second thought I'll share the pics just for the spite of it when I decide to hunt a colored springbok.

This subject has come up before, but once again, here is my 2 cents worth. The colour variations only succeed behind high fences and are the result of selective breeding. In natural conditions colour oddities would be nailed by predators as they stand out. White lions in natural conditions would starve as they are some what visible and their hunting would be compromised.

quote:

Originally posted by Fallow Buck:
Guys,

I was hunting on a ranch in RSA this year that was very into promoting alternative colour phases in the animals. Now we have all seen or shot the white or black springbuck or blesbuck, but things seem to be going further.

Black Impala are begining to be mentioned and I saw a progressively darkening zebra that the owner tells me was getting darker with every generation. Adverts for the Golden Gnu which i understand is a blue wildebeest by any other name, (please correct me if I'm wrong) were in the back of african outfitter.

Basically all I'm getting at is whether or not we seem to be heading towards the breeding of anomalies specifically for the collector hunter and should this happen?

Personally I'm not massively motivated by colours primarily because I don't see why a white springbuck should be three times the cost of a brown one. However when I found the white blesbucks for the same price as a regular one, I shot the white in preference for novelty value.

Rgds,
K

As some other poster said: This topic has been discussed before, and will be discussed again!

Let us distinguish between hybrids - where two different species - for example blue wildebeest and black wildebeest - produce ofspring and natural color variants, such as white, black and copper or yellow springbuck. I'll confine my remarks to just the color variants and not speak about true hybrids at all here. One should also distinguish between "Black Faced Impala" - a recognized subspecies and "black impala" - a natural color variant nowadays selected to have pure herds of the color variant.

These last are simply natural color variants of the same species. I'm not sure of the scarcity of the different natural color variants. IMHO the nornal color is the rule, but the few natural white springbuck are far more common than black which is again more common that the very scarce yellow or golden color variant. As L David Keith remarked is the case with white blesbuck being naturally born to normal colored parents, the same applies to springbuck and other animals in which color variants occur. It is an entirely natural phenomenon that occurs in low frequency in nature. I understand that a herd of springbuck or blesbuck that has been confined in one area for many years may suddenly have a white, black or copper (yellow) lamb for normal parents. In unaltered nature these would be at a slight disadvantage by standing out more than the normal color for predators. If they were at a total disadvantage the millenia of natural selection will have weeded out the genes for such a color variant long ago. But the genes still occur at low frequency in natural herds.

What the game ranchers do is to selectively catch and breed with these natural color variants in special enclosures to so establish herds in which the color variants are much more common than in nature. Even if a herd of springbuck consists entirely of the white color variants they are still all of the species Antidorcas marsupialis, and specifically the subspecies A. m. marsupialis A white, or black or yellow springbuck or blesbuck is just a color variant of the same species!

The novelty value of such color variants and the original relative scarcity allows game owners to command higher prices for these. That is the motivation for the game ranch owners to breed such color variants: It pays them better than the natural colors!

In line with BaxterB's comment there is also room for the 'inner circles' to create yet another artificial record class to boost some low self esteems: The natural white variants of what is generally know as the "Kalahari springbok" called Antidorcas marsupialis hofmeyri is not yet recognized on a separate trophy list. Or am I behind the times? Could someone with a new SCI measurement book please post all the currently listing recognized color variants of the commonly hunted species in another thread?

IMHO there should not be separate trophy listings for any color variant at all. In nature these color variants compete on an equal footing with the natural color individuals of the herd for food, escaping from predators and sexual privileges. So should the hunters who hunt them compete for the biggest trophy from the whole population of the particular species or subspecies. But that is just my opinion.

Also IMHO there is absolutely nothing wrong with a serious hunter wishing to collect all the natural variants of a species. Or even a first time springbuck hunter selecting to shoot the single white individual from a herd, as did Jason McKinney on his Andrew McLaren Safaris 2010 Free Hunt!

Here are two springbuck shot from the same absolutely naturally free ranging herd:



Life goes on. I can offer white blesbuck at exactly the same price as the natural ones at a venue where the [new] owner wishes to eliminate all the white ones until the birth of white individuals is about the same as in unaltered natural populations.

In good hunting.



Andrew McLaren

Andrew,

You are correct that the color phases are not the result of hybridization or something even more exotic like gene manipulation. They are indeed the result of rare, but natural, color variations. However, such variations are alomost always limited in nature to a handful of individuals and rarely establish themselves as self-perpetuating and permanent norms.

As you state, all of the "colored" springbok are the result of selective breeding. Otherwise there would be no significant numbers of such variants, thus there would be no "springbok slam".

As I observed in a previous post, while hunting a wild auroch (if such still existed) would be a huge thrill, hunting a "red auroch" (Hereford), a "white auroch" (Charlois), or a "black" auroch (Angus), all of which are mearly products of selectively breeding aurochs, holds little interest.

BTW: In an earlier post I meant to say "Black-Faced Impala", which is a recognized subspecies, when I said "Black Impala" which may be someone's breeding project. Most of us are much more interested in taking a "Black-Faced Impala" from its limited range in northern Namibia/southern Angola, than in taking a "Black Impala" released just a couple of generations ago from its breeding pen.

I like white ones, the cross hairs show up better........

No interest. I like my African animals in the plain, basic colors: gray elephants and black buffalo.

There are well over a hundred quality species of animals in Africa to hunt in their natural habitat. I'll never live long enough to hunt them all. Circus Freaks are not on my bucket list...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

all of the "colored" springbok are the result of selective breeding

In other words ...... "canned" - there will come a time when you could probably order your 'trophy' by color of choice

Once again I see some are not understanding the text of the message (and some fully understand). I have no feelings either way, so please understand I am not being argumentative. The majority of these "color phases" are natural occurrences; part of nature, just like the Snow/Blue goose of North America: same bird, different clothes. Where game management or breeders step in, is when they confine a like colored herd in one area to propagate their numbers. This area may be small by some standards, but I've seen land covering thousands of acres with only this color or that color but none of the common colors. Bottom line it's all about: A. money, B. more species to hunt, i.e., money, which by the way it takes to run a hunting outfit, C. record books & D. adding some extra hunting for those who've "done it all." I had no desire to hunt any color phase until I became educated on the facts. Now I have no issue with it and have done it. Would I shoot a white deer or bear? Hell yes, if it were legal. I'd much rather shoot (and have) a color phase black bear than a BLACK bear. Just a simple opinion, nothing more.
Cheers,
David

I see it much like a guy choice of Blonde, Brunette, Redhead, or for the gals; bald guys vs gray-haired old dudes (seriously ladies; ignore the pretty young boys they have no experience!!!) Its personal choice and or the attraction of something different!

As far as the naturally occurring wild aspects go it seems that most everything in SA has been bred and stocked or restocked. White and black pigmentation is a natural occurrence and breeding for those characteristics does not necessarily take the “wild” out of the animal.
So while they do not represent the normal or what I personally like about most all of the African species if someone else prefers the brunette or the blonde then…have at it!!!

Best regards
Mike Ohlmann
Mike's Custom Taxidermy Inc.
4102 Cane Run Rd.
Louisville KY 40216
502-448-1309
Mike@mikescustomtaxidermy.com

With all due regard to my Tennessean friend, David,(who comes from a US state of hunters and real sharp shooters) I have to say this - since when does color (or colour)variations on the same species matter so much to hunters trying to take down a clever and elusive animal? - or are there now trophy awards broken down more refinedly since I was young? (I suspect the latter)

Odd color phases happen in all animals. Just like a brunette woman and a blonde man having a red headed son. Somewhere along the genetic lines it was introduced, and its usually a recessive gene. But if 2 animals both carry that recessive gene they're more likely to produce these color phases.

All these ranchers are doing is exploiting those genetic differences to "true up" the line. Very common in pets, fish especially they're line bred for certain color variations, but they're still viable offspring of the same species. True hybrids are almost always sterile.

Outside of a game ranch, I'm sure most hunters would take an "off" animal as its just unique. Blue/brown/cinnamon black bears, piebold white tail deer....non-typical antlered deer. Heck, they have their own scoring systems now. Its the same as shooting an oryx with crooked horn, or any animal with unique characteristics. Matter of choice, nothing morally wrong with it IMO.

Heck, every single one of us that own a dog, own something that was specifically bred for certain traits, as all dogs are of 1 true species, this is why a pomeranian and a newfoundland can have viable *if not ugly* pups.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I like white ones, the cross hairs show up better........

What Gato means, folks, is that after the third Gin & Tonic, old eyes need all of the help they can get

I am not a "box" checker,, I am not interested in the "grand slam" of anything. I have no problem with those that are but if it is a free range animal,, and I think it is a trophy that I want, regardless of the color phase,,,i am a hunter,, I will hunt it and probably shoot it, black and yellow, brown and white,, they are precious in my SIGHTS!

MileHighShooter

I enjoyed reading your post -particularly because my mother was a blackhaired brunette, my father had fairly dark brown hair - and I was born a real blond towhead. Heck! I have heard of albino lions!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Scott Haghlajflkdsjflajfklsdjn of Sporthill's new show was hunting the seriously important "slam of springbuck" last week with Tam "Canned Lion Sham" Safaris. Yeah I turned that one off in a hurry!!!

Brett

For the record: I'm not knocking anyone that wants to hunt color phase springbok or anything else for that matter. I'm just simply stating that the episode of Game Chasers had about as much appeal as watching paint dry!

Brett

Personally, I'd like a rug from a one of those reverse pattern zebras.

I like color, it's one of the spices of life. I hope to get a very large blond black bear someday.

By golly if I see a purple Bull eland out there someday it will be mine.

I guess Kiri that I am just a simple chinaman, we don't really care what colour it is, just whether it tastes good

having said that if the different coloured springbok or any other species was offered all at a decent price, I'd be there with my rifle and wok raring to go.

otherwise based on price alone and its normals for me. I also like the weird and wacky so if anyone has a scrumcap or helmeted buff, unicorn eland or strange impala at a discount cos trophy hunters don't want it, I'm also there...

my apetite knows no boundaries!

Wok on!
ps am still dreaming of that liver and ginger and willy's fantastic "puff adder" sasauge

I am currenly developing a Green Hunt funded by American Greenies for a new rarely seen but soon to be listed by SCI animal as a distict subspecies that you may enter for an A-ward....send cash, check or money order in dinero of your choice....I will announce the animal, very rare subspecies,after I receive enuff dinero....