Canned hunting continues

October 26 2008 at 01:32PM


By Eve Vosloo

Despite public assurances to the contrary, canned hunting is still going on in South Africa.

This is the view of Chris Mercer, founder and director of the Campaign Against Canned Hunting.

"New regulations that are supposed to have ended canned hunting are nothing but an elaborate public relations exercise," he said on Saturday.

"In fact, in reply to questions in parliament recently, it emerged that 700 captive lions have been hunted this year alone."

Mercer is co-author of two books and winner in 2006 of a prestigious international award from the Marchig Animal Welfare Trust "for his tireless work to protect wildlife from abuse".

Mercer says the new regulations are contained in an amendment to the Threatened or Protected Species regulations, which was published in December last year and came into effect on February 1.

But, he says, "the very regulations that were touted by Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism Marthinus van Schalkwyk as banning canned lion hunting, exclude lions from the listed predators and they in fact have no protection at all".

He says the reason is that the SA Predator Breeding Association has gone to the High Court in Bloemfontein to try to have some provisions in the amendment declared invalid, and until this is settled - and "it could take years" - the lion hunting industry is "free to carry on with business as usual".

One of the provisions the breeding association objects to is that before they can be hunted, lions will have to go through a two-year "wilding process" - being kept in an enclosure with animals to hunt, but with supplementary feeding allowed. After this they are considered wild and therefore "fair game".

The breeders say the costs of doing this would make their industry unprofitable.

Mercer says the idea is nonsensical.

"The industry is trying, through government regulation, to foist the idea that if a lion is kept in a camp for two years where it has to hunt prey animals, it is no longer tame and therefore hunting it can no longer be termed canned hunting."

Mercer says hunting has been linked to conservation and tourism revenue to give it legitimacy.

"But linking conservation to hunting is absurd. Many nature conservation officials are themselves professional hunters who justify their support for hunting in financial and conservation terms.

"People who are supposed to protect our fauna and flora are sometimes doing the exact opposite. Trophy hunting is the asset stripping of our environment and it must be stopped altogether."


This article was originally published on page 15 of Cape Argus on October 26, 2008

Thanks for posting this extremely worrying information Kathi.

'Trophy hunting is the assett stripping of our environment and it must be stopped altogether.'

Regardless of how many awards he has won, Mercer obviously has very little clue as to what true hunting is all about. I am certainly no fan of canned hunting and do consider it a blemish on our otherwise wonderful tradition, but anyone who links the canned version to actual hunting is completely out of touch.

I would very much like to openly challenge Mercer with the question of which countries have the best and worst conservation records, and which countries have the highest and lowest numbers of hunters per capita. I'd like to see him answer that one. I don't think we'll have to go too much further than the US and Canada, and on the other side of the spectrum, Kenya and England. Who has the most game and whose wildlife populations constantly thrive? Which countries pump more money into worldwide conservation? Who has actually done more for wildlife in the last hundred years or so? Anybody can go and see for themselves, at any time. Don't need an award or degree to do that - even the simplest child could point out the glaring differences.

Fellow hunters, I am deeply concerned by the misinformation being forcefed to society regarding the hunt. I urge you not to let the drivel get to you. It gets to me constantly and causes much stress. Teach your children well and teach them what is right. That right is the right to hunt the wildlife that WE conserve against ever mounting odds.

Happy hunting for as long as we can keep these looneys at bay. After that, you can show your children pictures of the animals we now see in the flesh. Mercer can also do that. And he can lament the fact that he was so grossly incorrect, whilst he gazes through misty eyes at his worthless award on the mantelpiece.

My two cents....I'm climbing down from my platform now. I wish someone would kick Mercer's considerably higher platform out from under him. Because it is so much higher, it is probable he will fall really hard and never get up again.


Dave

I think that you do need to do just that. Challenge him to a debate. Why can't the SAPHA do just that? A public debate covered by the news media, to expose his fallacies?

Yeah, rather SAPHA does that. More credibility and patience and all...

I sold 2 yesterday and both clients was very happy i hope the photo proves it

quote:

Originally posted by 375 fanatic:
I sold 2 yesterday and both clients was very happy i hope the photo proves it

That is good humor!

"In fact, in reply to questions in parliament recently, it emerged that 700 captive lions have been hunted this year alone."

When this Statistic is True. Shame on the Hunting Industry in RSA. Why is PHASA not CLEAN up this Hunting Practise ??? I really dont understand....

Seloushunter

quote:

700

700! Doesn't anyone think that number is a bit high? Does SA really get 700 hunters each year writing $50,000 checks to shoot a fenced lion.

I don't believe it.

John

A canned lioness is about $5500, a male about $15000 to 20000.That's all in trophy and day rates.

Dan

I am no expert on the topic, but do know that PHASA is totally opposed to canned hunting.
What I do find fascinating, though, is that there is a massive demand from foreign hunters for these animals, despite the negative sentiments. I am also told that these hunters come from all over the world.

What surprises me is just how long canned lion hunts have been popular in South Africa. I've got a book here somewhere where a former U.S. Ambassador details his hunting and fishing in Asia and Africa (I'm sure somebody will ID the book), and he references SA farmers trapping lions and leopards in box traps and selling them to "hunters" who would come shoot them in the traps. In 1960 or so.

Karoo wrote

quote:

What I do find fascinating, though, is that there is a massive demand from foreign hunters for these animals

IMO this are not hunters !

Seloushunter

Is all lion hunting in SA canned/put & take?
Is there really any free range lion hunting in South Africa?
I have seen advertizing for lion hunts and promoters at SCI Reno convention offering lion "free range hunts" ----are these lagit?

While this might sound crass, at least lions are going to be around for a while in South Africa. Perhaps India could adopt a similar strategy. Otherwise tigers will be vanquished.

PHASA have a very firm and admirable stance on hunting ethics and I think you'll find their code of conduct on their website at www.phasa.co.za.

PHASA has really been getting on the ball in recent years and have done and are continuing to do a huge amout of work for the hunting industry and Professional Hunters in South Africa, but before someone criticises them for not doing enough to prevent canned hunting, one must remember they're not a Governmental body and can't legislate. They're exactly what the title says, The Professional Hunters Association of SA.

Quickshot,

Not all Lion hunts in SA are canned by any means and there are of course, degrees of canning and the phrase is open to individuals interpretation of the term. Some of the the areas surrounding the KNP for example, offer Lion hunts in fairly large areas where the Lions are hunted as they come out of the park. However, IMO (and as I said, it's open to individual interpretation) these hunts are different to Lion hunts in a true wilderness area because although it doesn't make 'em any less dangerous (and it could be argued that in some ways, it actually makes 'em more dangerous), the park Lions are habituated to humans and vehicles etc and because of that, behave differently to a truly wild Lion such as you'd find in other parts of Africa.

In my eyes, whilst not all SA Lion hunts are canned, I believe that SA Lion hunts are different to true wilderness area Lion hunts. Not necessarily worse, but different.

One rule of thumb aid to help you tell the difference between a wild Lion and a cage raised Lion is to look at the face of the animal. One that's lived his life in the wild, (no matter whether in a TWA or NP) will have had to spend a large part of his life fighting to estblish dominance (see pic below as a rather extreme example) and will almost always have battle scars on his face and elsewhere. - One that's lived his life in a cage will have far fewer scars.

One must also remember that not all hunts suit all clients and maybe the choice between the two types of hunt (ie TWA or edjacent to a NP) is possibly a good thing because it gives the client more choice. One must also remember that any Lion is still gonna stuff you up big time if it gets hold of you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shakari:

Some of the the areas surrounding the KNP for example, offer Lion hunts in fairly large areas where the Lions are hunted as they come out of the park. However, IMO (and as I said, it's open to individual interpretation) these hunts are different to Lion hunts in a true wilderness area because although it doesn't make 'em any less dangerous (and it could be argued that in some ways, it actually makes 'em more dangerous), the park Lions are habituated to humans and vehicles etc and because of that, behave differently to a truly wild Lion such as you'd find in other parts of Africa.


This also applies to Lion shot on properties bordering Etosha Park in Namibia but as shakari says "(and as I said, it's open to individual interpretation)"

Being in the Air Charter side of things we fly a lot of hunters around from one hunting area to another. Canned lion hunting is a big part of hunting in SA unfortunately, to date we have only heard of one canned hunt. But as steve says it is all about interpretation....

On most hunts that we have seen, the guys sweep the roads just before sunset and then return in the morning to pick up the spoor and from there the "hunt" is on. I know that one particular farm near Tosca is roughtly 15 000ha and the guys are adament that the lions are not caged or canned. the hunt normally goes as follows. pick up spoor, follow the lion, at first sighting the lion turns and runs, second time that they catch up he gives a verbal warning but still makes for the escape, on the third time he usually makes a stand off or charges.

I have a PH friend in South Africa who does about dozen plus lion hunts in South Africa each year. He charges $25,000 for these hunts. He caters mostly to Spanish clients. We have gotten into some serious arguments over this. He insists they are not canned hunts because of the large 10,000 hectare enclosure. He states the farm that has these lions, have been in the enclosure for at least two years. I tell him there is no way you can sustain that many male lions year after year without feeding them and it is nothing more then a dangerous game shoot. How do you tell the difference one that has been put in a week ago or one in two years ago. Yes, I concede these lions are more dangerous then wild free ranging lions because they are not afraid of man. He states they have had more then one charge him and his hunters since he started doing this three years ago. I asked him about 700 lion killed in S. Africa and said that is about right.

For some people this is hunt and not a kill and maybe this is how they see it. It is not for me and I would never hunt lion this way. But, am I to condemn that person for taking that lion. I think not, why should I pass judgement on that person because of my moral ethics. That person is every bit as proud of that lion as if he took a lion in Zim or Tanzania. As long as S. Africa allows the captive breeding and raising of Lions and other species of wildlife this practice will go on.

Here is some food for thought. You would not have the hunting industry you have today in S. Africa if was not for captive breeding of wildlife. There would not have the numbers of white and black rhino, kudu, gemsbok,bontebok, impala etc. The list goes on. How many hunters would not have the joy of hunting african game if it was not for captive breeding in S. Africa. Very few hunters in US would be able afford an African hunt if it was not for this practice in S. Africa.

My first hunt was S. Africa and it was in fenced encloser of about 10,000 acres. It was fantastic hunt. It got me hooked on hunting in Africa. I have been back to Zim and S. africa several times.

Before anybody start condemning others how they hunt. We must consider how did that animal come to be there in the first place.

Just my two cents worth

quote:

Originally posted by .458Aubs:

.....................................

On most hunts that we have seen, the guys sweep the roads just before sunset and then return in the morning to pick up the spoor and from there the "hunt" is on. I know that one particular farm near Tosca is roughtly 15 000ha and the guys are adament that the lions are not caged or canned. the hunt normally goes as follows. pick up spoor, follow the lion, at first sighting the lion turns and runs, second time that they catch up he gives a verbal warning but still makes for the escape, on the third time he usually makes a stand off or charges.

I quite agree that you have quite accurately described what the hunter experiences as happening on a typical "canned lion" hunt. Oops. I meant ‘canned lion ‘ shoot.

Let’s play ‘What if?’ Suppose when in the ‘hunt’ you described that when they first pick up the lion spoor on the road, they start following it, BUT IN REVERSE. They go backwards on the lion spoor to where the lion came from! What are they likely to find?

Are they likely to find the remains of the lion’s last kill? Ask the experienced real wild lion guys like Steve Shakari and a few others who post here if that is very likely if a lion spoor found early in the morning is followed backwards?

Or are they more likely to find the place where the lion, using his very considerable strength, simply ‘walked’ through the game fence from the adjacent National park? That is certainly what the lion hunter in .458Aubs’ story is likely to think will be found!

My suggestion is that they will find something very strange! The lion spoor will simply disappear. Vanish in thin air! But, only they were following the lion spoor BACKWARDS, this means that the lion did not vanish in thin air, it must have originated in thin air Search as the best trackers can, they will not find the place where the lion actually came from. What they may very well find is a place where a vehicle stopped, turned around and drove off again. It is there where the lion spoor, which they followed backwards STARTS. Then, if someone who is even really well experienced in tracking, and reading sign looks at the sign on the ground, where the driver of the vehicle got out, and back in quickly again, there he will come to the conclusion that the lion was unloaded from a vehicle very early the morning at that point. How else could a lion spoor just start somewhere, and just at the place where a vehicle turned around? If this guy also know the methods of some Hunting Outfitters he will conclude that the lion spoor STARTS where the vehicle that unloaded the [probably drugged] lion spoor had turned around! I leave the speculation to you about what will be found if the vehicle tire imprints are compared to those on the vehicles that belong to the HO, the PH and the Game Farm owner, or one of the “hunting vehicles†at the game farm!

Does anyone really think that all of the 700 'canned lion' shot [Statistics according to a reply to a question asked in South African Parliament] last year were shot in small little enclosures where even the totally ignorant client can see and know that the lion he was shooting was canned? Ag sis man! Don’t underestimate my fellow South Africans like that. Our South African Hunting Outfitters and PH's lack nothing in ingenuity when it comes to disguising a canned lion "shoot" to look like a real ethical, fair chase, follow the fresh spoor on foot "hunt" for a 'nomad lion that came in from Botswana! Methinks – note that I do not claim to have any real statistics on it, but I only “think†so - that the unloading of the canned lion on about the 7th or 8th day of a 10 day lion ‘hunt’ as described probably happens all the time on many game ranches that can claim that they share a boundary with Botswana, or the Kruger National or other lion containing Park

Does anyone want to make a guess, even an educated guess, of what % of lion [ Or leopard, or cheetah, or caracal – like in a story some time ago about a caged caracal being released to be hunted by a pack of dogs.] hunts on South African and Namibian (?) game ranches next or very near to Botswana, Etosha, Kruger National Park happens like I describe the full story? I don’t know how often it happens or how widespread this or similar method is applied to disguise canned lion shooting as legitimate hunts. But I do know from first hand speaking frankly and openly to a lion breeder who also happens to own a game farm bordering on Botswana that it happens regularly on one specific game ranch. No I do not offer any hunts on that property!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Andrew,

Glad to see that there are guys in the profession who get heated up under the coller as you do about canned lion hunting.

I deliberately left the story as it was, the one canned hunt was an older american who will not be named, he actually turned around to me when seeing him off at the airport and told me that he was dubb'd into a lion hunt and that the lion was indeed canned. the rest of them, well there were of Russian, Spanish, German and Italian Nationalities and most of them believed that they had the hunt(shoot) of a lifetime. (And no I was not the salesperson / PH / booking agent)

I fly a fair amount of people around and assist even more with meet and greet services on arrival and departure and what gets me everytime is the amount of days set aside to hunt this so called free ranging lion.... one, and thats if the lion is not wounded. So guys if canned hunting is not your thing and you have planned to go on a lion hunt and the PH sets aside less than 14 days to shoot it, then it is probably canned. If your PH is willing to stoop down to the level of shooting a canned lion, well then you should think twice about spending your hard earned money on him.

I have now on Saturday just returned from dropping off a Rusian client who is back to get his lion for the second time in 5 months(first time unsuccessful), days spent on the hunt so far - 23 days, they have come close twice but so far it has not meant to be. I am sure that when he gets his lion he will be proud of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Brooks Carmichael:
My first hunt was S. Africa and it was in fenced encloser of about 10,000 acres. It was fantastic hunt. It got me hooked on hunting in Africa. I have been back to Zim and S. africa several times.

Before anybody start condemning others how they hunt. We must consider how did that animal come to be there in the first place.

Just my two cents worth

I dont think the point to this topic is fenced or unfenced with regards to PG, this has got to do with the unethical and imoral killing of Lions in any habitat(canned hunting)

Andrew, Aubs
you guys are spot on. The canned lion issue is a touchy one indeed. Most seasoned African hunters can easily tell the difference with a quick passing glance and know for sure the thing was raised never seeing its first haircut. The sad part is that these guy's that partake in it are denying themselves one of the last great adventures left on this earth. Hunting the king of all beast in his domain on his terms in a fair chase manner. Whilst a true wild lion as you showed is mangy, scarred up. A true warrior. Thanks for putting into words what I have felt.
Steve

I'm against canned hunting.

I'm also against bullshit....whether it be based on misperception or not.

David Hulme said:
" would very much like to openly challenge Mercer with the question of which countries have the best and worst conservation records, and which countries have the highest and lowest numbers of hunters per capita. I'd like to see him answer that one. I don't think we'll have to go too much further than the US and Canada, and on the other side of the spectrum, Kenya and England. Who has the most game and whose wildlife populations constantly thrive?"

England: where there are more deer alive now than at any other point in history.
England: where we have free ranging deer accross the whole country.
England: where we have 5 species of deer, and a hunting season for each that is several months long and means you can hunt almost the entire year.
England: where there are no game licences, no tags, it is up to the hunter to decide how many he wants to take. You want 5, 10, 50 in a year? Go for it.
England: where the landowner owns the hunting rights, not the state.
England: where if you want to buy a hunt the trophy fee and "outfitter" (we have no such thing) cost will be a small fraction of what it costs to buy a decent whitetail deer in the USA.
England: where there are more gun shops per head of population than any other country (I read that in a magazine...I'll have to take it as true, though I admit I have no source data).

I could go on...but you get the message!

Not getting at you David...just getting at the popular misconception that so many Americans seem to have that we are cojtrolled and regulated out of our sport, when in many ways the inverse is true.

Just realised David is not an American....oh well...perhaps the occassional Zimbabwean has got the wrong impression too!

Is it a bad time to point out there are actually 6 species of deer in England, not five. Red, Roe, Chinese Water, Muntjac, Fallow and Sika.

This topic stimulates many differing ethical considerations: canned lion hung, high fence plains game, low fence plains game, planting hatchery salmon/steelhead as smolt, catching hatchery fish in rivers & lakes, women with implants, cialis for enhancement, where does one draw the line? And, truly, isn't it different strokes for different folks? Each sets our own moral limitations. And they may be different than someone else--

458Aubs, I am just showing how shooting PG is alright under the same circumstances but Lion is not. You use a very large word, we now have an oximoron (sp).

I am not for canned lion hunting and never will be. But, if we start saying it is immoral and unethical for killing lions in canned lion hunting vs canned lion shoots then we must condemn all hunting behind fenced enclosures and I am not ready to do that. And I think there is a distinct difference. If a lion or lions is released in large, let us 10,000 hectare enclosure and eventually makes his own kills. Would you call this canned hunting or would you call it canned shooting. What is the difference if you turn loose kudu in that enclosure and it feeds on its own and 3 months later you shoot it. Do you call that canned hunting or canned shooting. I would like to know. Maybe you have handicap person who cannot get around and wants to take a kudu, gemsbok or maybe a lion. Do you condemn him for that. I sure hope not. I would be really upset if I went on a lion hunt let us say in Zimbabwe, and unknown to me the PH had a captive bred lion he turned loose that morning and we came accross its tracks, we tracked it down and I shot it. I would be livid if I found out about what that PH had done but if I never knew about it I would have thought it was the greatest hunt in the world. Has it happened, I do not know, but it sure is possible, since lions are raised in Zimbabwe. But, I know of instances of Mt. Lion hunting here in the US where a Guide had captured a live mt. lion. Had it turned loose down the road brought the hunter along with the dogs turned the dogs loose and less then an hour later had his trophy Mt. Lion. Unethical, you darn betcha. That guide (hound hunter) should have been hung up by you know what, but the hunter was happy and thought he had great hunt. Here in the US we have strict laws against that type of operation.

I want to make it clear I am against all canned lion shoots. Like Andrew I prefer to call them that.

I am in agreement with Judge Jerry where do we draw the line.

I'm also totally against all canned Lion shooting, but I have to say, I think there's a big difference between that and hunting PG in a large fenced area......... Moving onto BC's other comment about strict game laws in the USA. It was a while ago, but the last time I attended the DCS convention, my neighbour was selling white tail hunts where he had pics of individual animals with names and antler measurements for each animal. He was telling the punters things like, you can shoot peanut who measures whatever inches for this much, if you want to shoot diddums, he's that long and will coat that much etc etc etc. I can't remember the size of his place, but it was helluva small. - I'd hardly call that ethical hunting and if he was offering it openly, I doubt it was illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by UKhunter:
England: where the landowner owns the hunting rights, not the state.
.

Isn't it the case in SA excl specialy protected game

Good fences = good neighbours

Steve

I was not referring deer as you referred to as in your postas being illegal in USA. I meant the taking of animal out of the wild, such as the Mt. Lion releasing to be killed in that manner. The raising of lion and tigers and other wild cats and releasing them out of cage to be shot is in violation of various state laws and if I remember correctly federal laws. Deer, elk, red deer and other non-native species raised in captivity with proper permits in limited number of states are considered livestock and you can do what ever you want with them here in the USA. I condemn that practice and it not ethical but it is perfectly legal. Some of thes places are no more then 100 acres. In Texas they are in the thousands of acres. But, to each his own. Just not my thing. I guess I should have been more clear in my statement.

UKhunter,

You are 100% correct. I was wrong. I probably shouldn't have used England as an example without having all my ducks in a row, but my comment was actually based on information gleaned from English hunters, who have told me ad nauseum that their freedoms are constantly trampled on. Some of those hunters are actually reluctant to let others know that they do hunt, because their kids will get bullied at school, or whatever. Isn't there a movement afoot to ban fishing in England, because it is cruel? That will be next eh? At least you'll still have the 'free ranging' deer. Please understand that I was not overly concerned about your deer population when I wrote my comment, I was more interested in pointing out how little the English do for hunting worldwide. Apologies if my wording was not easy to follow - I do get a bit too emotional at times, when it comes to hunting rights and when it comes to England, for a number of reasons. I am certainly nowhere as well informed as you when it comes to English hunting, but tell me this: If the English hunting industry is in such good shape, why do we hardly ever hear a squeak from England in support of our tradition? Your post is one of the very few times I have actually witnessed a modern day Englishman publicly defend hunting, whether English hunting or otherwise. For that you should be commended, but it would be well appreciated by the rest of the world's hunters if you could lend a little more voice.

Having had my little blurt(once again), I must apologize for bull-shitting everyone with regards England's hunting/conservation record and standing, of which I actually have very little idea. It comes naturally to me to bullshit about the English. They have bullshitted us forever and so I cannot help myself. Much of the reason for my biased attitude is illustrated in the pictures below. Not an excuse, just a reason.

Dave




My grandfather, R.R. Hulme of the Rhodesia Regiment, about to leave for war in North Africa




R.R. Hulme (centre) - With 237 Squadron, RAF, in North Africa. Note the fella with the jerry helmet on.




With 237 Squadron, seconded to the long range desert group and after Field Marshall Erwin Rommel. Or was Rommel after 237 Squadron at that stage? Ah well, it really doesn't matter now, does it?

Brooks

OK, I see what you mean now!

David,

Us Brits need to use a degree of BS to keep you damn colonials in order........

Still, at least your lot didn't throw all our TEA in the 'oggin!

The pictures of most of the Lions out of SA tell the story clearly. As Shakari points out a wild lion carries battle scars; apart from no scars, lions with excessive belly hair and lots of elbow hair are definitely not wild. Some hunters are duped and others do it knowingly. Far too many hunters relate tales of cattle killing Kalahari lions shot in SA,if those stories were true the Kalahari would have to have one of the highest densities of Lions with a disproportional number of larged maned lions that keep wanting to immigrate across the border to SA!!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Brooks

OK, I see what you mean now!

David,

Us Brits need to use a degree of BS to keep you damn colonials in order........

Still, at least your lot didn't throw all our TEA in the 'oggin!

Steve,

Good humor. Didn't we grow all that tea?

Dave

I reckon most of it came from Inja's sunny climes, (to quote Mr Kipling) but it was those other damn colonials that chucked it all in the 'oggin............ BUT, I'm slowly working on getting my own back on 'em. Every time I get an American client, I try to convert him to the odd cuppa chai.

I reckon by the time I'm about 285 years old, I'll have a toehold on the place.

I strongly believe this fenced unfenced PG question is one of the definitions of a true hunter vs shooter or collector, I believe first timers should go see RSA and do the concession thing, a learning process if you will. Any "Hunter" will quickly move on and desire to hunt these magnificent animals open and fair chase and to Quote CB "where lions roar". Those who wish to continue to whack and stack, that IMHO is where the boys go left and men go right. My africa is about men and dust and diesel, it stick to your skin and cannot be washed away nor does it wane. If one chooses to hunt behind fences so be it, more quota for me. To each his own.
To hunt apex predators behind a fence????

Thanks You all.
No arse licking intended. This thread is one of the most interesting one for a long time.
No cliches, no deceit, really honest and captiving.
A pity it concerns a dark side of our passion but if it can open the eyes of the naive hunters and deter the blood thirsty shot, you rend to the community a tremendous favour.
My 2 cents :
I am appalled by the amount of canned lions shot per year : 700, that's something. I wonder what are the quotas in different countries. I can estimate that the quota is about 50 lions in Burkina, less than 100 in Cameroon and CAR. What 700 lions represent compared to Tanz, Zim, Bots, Zamb quotas?
Another reflexion : the term hunter includes many meanings : real hard hunting guy in the true wilderness most for adventure, the one that wants a wonderful trophy at any cost and with the shortest short cut (canned lion), the one who hunts only for having his name in the book, the one who wants the largest possible bag for his money, the one fed up with the shooting range, and so on. It'd be great to tag a different name for this so different sorts of hunters.

I am changing the subject here a little but it still has to do with hunting and ethical hunting. I have hunted in Zim, South Africa, Spain, New Zealand, and Great Britain. I consider myself very lucky to able to these things. I would never I had missed the opportunity and the memories. Now, if you want to compare these hunts to that to hunting Mt. Goat in British Columbia or Dall Sheep in Alaska, Moose or caribou in NWT, Blacktail hunting in Washington, Elk in Moutana or the many other places in North America. It is like comparing apples and oranges. There is a good chance you may not get the trophy you were after. You will spend many cold sleepless nights in sleeping bag around a campfire with you and your guide. It will cost you the same if not more as trip to Africa. And you hope you have opportuntiy to take the animal you are after. I think you know what I mean. In Africa you are going home with most of the trophies you came for. In Africa some animals it will take perserveance and luck, one I can think of is leopard and I know there are others. But, if you go for Kudu, gemsbok, wildebeest, zebra, impala most of the PG you are not going to have a problem.

Each person has his or her own experience and is in the eyes of the beholder. From my prospective the most grueling hunts I have been on were for Mt. Goat hunt in Nov. in British Columbia, Dall Sheep in Mckennzie Mts of NWT and for Tahr in the S. Alps of New Zealand. All done on foot, backpacking in. In all cases it took me days if not weeks to recover from those hunts. The most exciting hunts were for Buffalo in Zim and for elk in New Mexico. So, what I am saying different strokes for different folks.

Again canned lion hunt/shoot is not for me.

I would like to go for leopard behind dogs or maybe tracking leopard in the sands of the Namibia. That would be hunt because you never know what will happen.

A hunt is what you make of it. Hopefully all are good hunts.

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:
Thanks You all.
My 2 cents :
Another reflexion : the term hunter includes many meanings : real hard hunting guy in the true wilderness most for adventure, the one that wants a wonderful trophy at any cost and with the shortest short cut (canned lion), the one who hunts only for having his name in the book, the one who wants the largest possible bag for his money, the one fed up with the shooting range, and so on. It'd be great to tag a different name for this so different sorts of hunters.

that covers it quite well

Sakari:

maybe you could answer this for me. If one was interested in booking a truely free range lion hunt, should a hunter consider the RSA northern hunts along Botswana boarder/Kalahari hunts? are they liget hunts or not? I have read hunt reports that claim bushman trackers are used to follow up the lions as they cross into RSA--is this B.S. and are they really just a staged hunt??

just asking because I really don't know

quote:

Originally posted by chipolopolo:
My africa is about men and dust and diesel, it stick to your skin and cannot be washed away nor does it wane. If one chooses to hunt behind fences so be it, more quota for me.

The Farms in SA is so small we tar halve of the farm and wet the other halve before we start hunting at 6am and the Lions roar like crazy you can pick how you want your trophy aswell whe can even wash your animal so that you dont get ticks on you during the photo session

dust who the f£$$ wants dust luckily we dont have Dust and Diesel in SA (shouldn't ethical hunting be on foot with a open sighted black powder rifle and your trophy carried to camp by the hunter)

only my 2 cents worth