quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by farktoof:

quote:

Had the locals not harassed this ele, I doubt anyone would have been killed,

No offense, it's hard to live without eating.

I don't understand your point. What does eating have to do with the natives harrasing the ele? Or are you thinking the guy in the tree was going for a brain shot with the skillet (skittle)?
Dave

If they had let the elephant go about his business destroying their food plots, they may have stared starvation in the face, not?So they took their chances chasing it off.

And how did they harass the elephant?Wasn't the elephant harassing them?

Let's theorise a little - obviously none of us were there so we have to make some assumptions.

The Bull's tusks weighed 100 lbs a side (ish) so let's assume he's an old boy and probably on his last set of teeth which were probably fairly worn down. If so, he would be having problems chewing his more usual diet of leaves, bark & grass. When Elephants get to this stage of their lives they generally head for food that's more easily chewed & digested and easy water. Usually it's a riverine habitat of some kind with fresh water & plenty of soft pulpy plants. Once in that location they don't like leaving - but possibly in this case he found it easier or necessary to head for human habitation where both requirements could be found. Plenty of nice juicy mealies and easy water........then you have the humans who probably only have the one water source and no easily available food other than the mealies.

Here's the conflict - do the locals stand by and let the Elephant live a little longer at the expense of their families or do they do whatever they can to protect what they have..... doesn't take much working out. These guys don't have many Macdonalds, credit cards or foodstamps available to them.......... I'm only suprised they didn't use snares and/or weighted spear traps to deal with Mr Big Ears.

Almost a Cowboy,

I doubt there's any clients in Selous at the moment or at least very few indeed as the hunting season doesn't open till July 1st. Had it been in the hunting season I'm fairly sure someone would have volunteered to go shoot it for them & I'm also sure the Game Dept would have preferred it that way. - Especially as (from my experience) most game guards don't exactly have a lot of bottle. - The last time I got charged from close range by something big and angry the game guard promptly hid behind me and the time before that the game guard ran away and left me to deal with the problem. Hell, he even managed to outrun the tracker!!

I remember a young man that was in my school when I was a begining teen. He was from Africa, going to school over here, in order to become a leader in his own country that had the experience of another culture. He had a hard time in many of the classes, the point being that almost all of what he was learning was to him, not relevant to normal life. The "normal" for him was so far removed from the school experience as to make the school experience virtually meaningless.

An acceptance of the reality of his life at home included the idea that life could end at most any time through misstep, but that did not mean life had no value, just an acceptance that life could end quickly.

I doubt, no, I know, that the concept of sport hunting was not one that existed in his image of life. It made as much sense to him as flying home by arm power alone, an amusing idea, but not real.

I would like to have spent some time in his world with him as the teacher, but then along came the 60's.

One thing I do know, the American concepts we take for granted as being the way it is, don't work over there. To insist of believing that they do, only works till you get over there.

quote:

Originally posted by Rug:
This is great news, who cares how he was killed. Think about the possibilites of his other close relatives #110 lbs?? Who knows not how many giants are left, not the biologist or the best PHs in the world. That is the real glory of it all. LOOK UP!

Rug,

Evidently the ele in question did "LOOK UP" and thats when things went badly wrong for our tree climbing friend from the special ed class!

Regards,

Peter

Apparently the tree climbers last words before he picked up his skillet were:
"Here, Hold my beer!...."

quote:

Originally posted by jbderunz:


Game scouts shot a hundredpounder in Tanzania down.

Game scouts shot a hundredpounder in Tanzania down.

With 4 shots from a repeater 458 2 game scouts in Tanzania shot a hundred pounder.
Says the game department, the ivory is 47 and 48 kg, 225 cm , girth 50 cm (20 inches)

You know what I really think.

Look at the smiles on these fellows. They are happy and proud. And GREAT hunters. They've just achieved what many would like to, and taken a 100 pounder trophy elephant in the year 2005. They should be famous! They fact they are game scouts and it was a PAC elephant is irrelevant.

Well done and congratulations to them I say.

I was only having a joke saying someone should tell them about the million dollars. I don't think they would smile then. Neither would I. $1mil would buy me a lifetime of safaris, even though it would be great to take a 100 pounder.

As for the poor sods that got killed that started the PAC hunt. Africans have always done things like that ie protecting their crops by banging tin cans and throwing rocks. To me it is a lot braver for a kid to face up to an elephant unarmed to protect their crop than a guided safari hunter to shoot one with a big bore rifle while a PH stands by to hold his hand.

Again congratulations to these two heroes. One for hunting a maraudering killer elephant and second for scoring a 100-pound bull.

If truth be told, most of histories really big ele ivory has probably be taken by local blacks or arabs (slavers) in the old days.

shakari -- oops! My watch wasn't working this morning. Six days to go until hunting season in the Selous, of course. But you get my meaning in any case. I'd venture to say that for a chance at an East African, long-tusked hundred pounder, any number of American and European hunters would drop everything and just flat out go!

And no, of course, I wouldn't expect the locals to wait around patiently for days on end for a hunter to show up while this elephant continued his depredations. Not without compensation from the government.

But in some countries, in order to put greater value on the wildlife, compensation is paid to locals whose crops are raided by elephants and whose livestock are killed by big cats. Sometimes those same elephants and cats are declared problem animals and hunted for trophy fees which are paid to the locals in whole or in part.

This is just coulda, woulda, shoulda talk, I know. But as a hunter, who can blame me for wanting this splendid animal to fall to a hunter's bullet, instead of a G-man's?

And I do agree with you, NitroX, these guys are and should be local heroes. I fully understand their satisfaction and salute their prowess.

Farktoof:
Thanks for the explanation. I see what you meant.
"And how did they harass the elephant?Wasn't the elephant harassing them?" Well, I hardly think the "he hit me first" defence carries much weight with elephants!

Dave

If we are talking now i don't think it will be possiable.The hunters would have to wait until the season opens.

Hamdeni

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I agree with Ray & Peter et al but I'll also point out that it's a lot easier in theory to find a client for this kind of hunt at short notice than it is in practice. There's plenty of guys who will tell you if you get a special deal I'll come at short notice - but when you contact them and say you've got 3 days to get on a plane it's another story..........

The same often goes for short notice cancellations.

I agree, shakari, but speaking as one who has broken off a hunt in one area to go after and kill a spectacular problem animal hundreds of miles away, I must say that it can be done. The odds are long, but it can be done.

How many elephant hunters do you suppose are in the Selous right now? How many would trade the entire bag of a 21 day safari for a decent chance at a 100 pound elephant? All I am saying is that it would have been better for everyone if the Ministry had placed some calls to outfitters in the Selous before sending the game scouts after this big boy.

I do understand the satisfaction these scouts must have felt at killing this marauder. But because of this outcome, no trophy fees or other revenues were generated. And of course those magnificent tusks are government property.

Maybe that's how it would have worked out even if the Ministry had tried to find a hunter to shoot this elephant. All I am saying is that it's a shame no effort was made and that a hunter couldn't be found to take him.

I agree with you - and would bet every single PH who's there building camps etc now is kicking himself in frustration!

In 1997 while elephant hunting on tribal lands in Zimbabwe three elephants entered a village and destroyed two grain storage huts and ate the years food supply. The villagers came to us and we tracked the bulls down and I shot the biggest one. I think the other two got the message also. The bull was a fifty pounder and I was hunting for something bigger but this added to the overall value of the hunt for me and I was glad to help the locals out. They ended up with the full trophy fee and the meat. Now if Uncle Bob paid the damages on the grain loss I cant say.

NitroX,
Your post to me is a croc of shit, If you intend to tell me what I am thinking then get it right. I have clearly stated above that I have prejudices and can get pretty perturbed at the blacks, mostly thats just me, and I do sometimes get disgusted with the way they do things, but never think that I don't understand them about as well as any white American can!! bottom line is they, like us, are both good and bad, smart and stupid, just like the folks on AR.. but I sure like most of them too..So you believe that since I am in the hunting business I should feel differently and be a greedy for the almighty dollar, well I got a surprise for you, money don't mean squat to me by most folks standards, principle does and if someont gets pissed about the stand I have taken on this issue, then they can kiss old spot, Now does that sound like someone whos in this business for the dollar?

Pete,
Harrassed the elephant? For goodness sakes man the boy was trying to save his familys year of food, would you have him walk up and kick old Temboo in the ass. His father probably made him climb the tree to scare the elephant off..He just did what he thought he had to do...That elephant was intent on distruction and willing to kill and would have killed again and again to get into those fields of easy food, it happens all the time...I have seen the bodies, and the mourning of the villagers.

As to how much quality the African himself puts on life and death, I have to admit they accept it better than we do, but the mothers cry and the fathers mourn, I have seen that also...

If there is a hunter close by, it has been my experience that they come and get him, as they do not put the same value on killing an elephant as we do, they would just as soon we risked our lives, so I doubt that a hunter was available....But its been a long damn time since a hunter has been called off safari to shoot a problem animal in Tanzania as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I will check those stats one of these days. My guess is a lot of bull shit is being spread around on that score, I have read about that in some magazines, but mostly that was in Zimbabwe and it gets less and less all the time.

what I see here is some cry baby sportsmen whining because a black man shot a record elephant, and that sportsman won't get to hang it in his den to impress his fat, plush, flush friends over a 100 year old scotch and water..I'm sorry that wasn't nice of me and I apoligise but it does tick me off and I feel I have to be honest about it,......

If you want a 100 lb. elephant go kill one, it can still be done if you have the bucks and time, they are still showing up from time to time...The do a growth spurt the last two or three years of their life, thats why they are still around..

The other thing that comes to mind and I'm sure a few others may have noticed it, that I'm not convienced in my mind that those are 100 lb. tusks...I have seen a lot of Tanzania elephant tusks, and some 65 to 75 pound tusks seemed as long as these, dunno?

Another thing, I'll be the one who decides when to get off and on my friggen soapbox, its my soapbox!

Fiesty old bugger you are Ray, but in this last post of yours I agree with every word

Wow!

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I feel that some of us in this thread are placing a higher value on the life of a native African than the native Africans themselves do.

WOW! Again you amaze me, sir. I wasn't aware that "native Africans" were so nonchalant about their lives. I'll certainly keep that in mind the next time I see one trying to cross the roadway in front of me!
Dave

If you think that native Africans value life the same way that westerners do, you need to be more observant, if you have spent any time with them.

quote:

I guess it depends on whos child gets stomped to death eh what?

Hundred pounder or not, they did what they had to do...they did what anyone worth his salt would do, they protected their own.

Amazes me how some of you come to such conclusions, like the life of black Africans has no value what so ever..Well I have been amonst them and find most are pretty good folks just like you and me...

Ray
I might not always agree with you, but this time you are 100% correct. Black afiricans might be fatalistic but you can bet they value their lives and do what they can to protect themself and their families.

As to the weight of the ivory; 20 inch circumfrence x 4 foot length(+-) from the lip - 5 = 75 pounds. The only way those tusks weigh more than 80lbs is if they had no nerve or the game-scouts pictured were 8 feet tall. No way that is a 100 pounder.
Jason

Jason,

Where do you get 4 foot from? 225cm appears below the original picture, which is 88.5" although I am not sure what that actually refers to ...

Also if the tusks were only 4 foot, the game scouts would have to be pygmies!

Regards,

Pete

(20 x 7.3)- 5 = 141

2 tusks at 141 = 282, two-eighty-two!!!?

Hokey Smokes it's a new world record!!!!!

Minkman

maybe my cyphering is off, or is it 2 gozinta 141 eckwalls 7 ot and 5

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
That's a big elephant. Too bad it couldn't have been taken by a hunter.

Did you notice it required "4 shots from a rotten .458" to kill him?

Either something has been lost in translation, or the Winchester ammo is acting up again.

Edited: Just looked at the original German--not a "rotten .458"--but a .458 repeating (or magazine) rifle.

It was a "rusty" .458 rifle - the kind of rifle the game scouts are usually equiped with and I guess the ammo was probably not the freshest...

Best regards

Erik

Pete,

If you measure tip to lip on the inside curve in feet and mulitply circumference at the lip in inches it will give you the weight in pounds......usually accurate to about 10% or less......

First of all,

Ray allow me to congratulate you for the brave and kind words.You said all I wanted to say.Well spoken,sir.

Not taking any personal references here,but some of you, who are more concerned about the trophy wasted and the brain cells of the "Natives", I dare say you don't have an idea of what poverty or hunger is. They are brave people trying to save their livelihood in the best way they can. Give them a custom made .600 DR and a bunch of stones and ask them to choose. Then you will know if they are retards.They have no choice.For you and me, it's a hunt.For them it is thier lives.

I am not able to resist the temptaion to say this.Almostacowboy, your attitude verges on callousness.I hope you understand what a cowboy stands for.

Sorry for the rant folks.But,that's how I feel.Best to all-
Locksley,R.

Steve,

Thanks, I gathered that, but where do we get the length from in this particular case? The 4 foot Jason quotes seems too short while the "225cm" quoted in the story seems too long and would be way off using your formula??

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

I'd say it's about 4 feet or maybe a tad longer from the tip to the dark ring where the tusk exits the lip and the circumference at that same darkened ring would be (IMO) about 20 inches or maybe a bit more.......That said it's difficult enough to judge them when you see the real thing - it's a damn sight harder to tell from a photograph. If the tusks were 4' 6" and the circumference 22" then you'd be at 99 lbs a side.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
NitroX,
Your post to me is a croc of shit, If you intend to tell me what I am thinking then get it right. I have clearly stated above that I have prejudices and can get pretty perturbed at the blacks, mostly thats just me, and I do sometimes get disgusted with the way they do things, but never think that I don't understand them about as well as any white American can!! bottom line is they, like us, are both good and bad, smart and stupid, just like the folks on AR.. but I sure like most of them too..So you believe that since I am in the hunting business I should feel differently and be a greedy for the almighty dollar, well I got a surprise for you, money don't mean squat to me by most folks standards, principle does and if someont gets pissed about the stand I have taken on this issue, then they can kiss old spot, Now does that sound like someone whos in this business for the dollar?

Ray

I don't have a problem with your "new" standards. Just wondering how you have the right to berate people for saying things very similar to what you yourself have said in the past?

quote:

So you believe that since I am in the hunting business I should feel differently and be a greedy for the almighty dollar

No I don't believe you should believe this at all. But based on previous threads it is actually what you do believe. When I have access to a faster connection than I have at the moment I may do a search.

But I prefer to let this topic to stay on hunting topic. I thought the holier-than-thou thread hijack was totally unnecessary and divisive. To me the 100-pound tusks are much more interesting.

Gents,

Not Africa, but on the same story line.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8371132/

If you live, hunt, fish, or visit wildlife areas, you stand a chance of suffering the elements.

The bear was shot as needed, same as the rouge bull.

Shouldn't be a trophy consideration.

Roger QSL

Any body that thinks 4 shots to kill a dangerous elephant (one that has already killed someone) is too many has very little if any experience shooting elephants. A near miss on a brain shot and the mandatory follow up insurance shots can easily = 4 shots.

I agree for the most part with Ray on this issue except for the part about hunters being called in to help with Problem Animal Control in Zim. It has been my experience over the last 4 years that in the tribal lands, safari hunters are being called in more and more to handle animal damage complaints. We were called in 3 times (two elephant and one buffalo) on my 15 day March hunt.

465H&H

First thing I don't disagree with the scouts shooting the rogue bull but ...

A hypothetical question for those talking about saving local villagers lives.

If the German hunter who has a standing offer of a million dollars for 100-pound trophy was able to take this bull and the money was spent on hospitals, medicines, water bore repairs etc, how many hundreds of lives might that save?

If we are going to kill the animals that kill locals, then we'd better get to work cleaning crocs and hippos out of all the rivers of Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Jason,

Where do you get 4 foot from? 225cm appears below the original picture, which is 88.5" although I am not sure what that actually refers to ...

Also if the tusks were only 4 foot, the game scouts would have to be pygmies!

Regards,

Pete

Pete
I wrote: " As to the weight of the ivory; 20 inch circumfrence x 4 foot length(+-) from the lip - 5 = 75 pounds."

Jason

500g,
I've been trying hard to resist participating in this thread.......but your last post took the biscuit for me....
You must have been a member of your schools debating society as that seems to be your calling. No wonder you have over 7000 posts!

Sometimes it's just better to keep quiet rather than make bold statements that have no place amongst intelligent people. Or even better, always start or end your posts with "JMO"....

quote:

A hypothetical question for those talking about saving local villagers lives.

If the German hunter who has a standing offer of a million dollars for 100-pound trophy was able to take this bull and the money was spent on hospitals, medicines, water bore repairs etc, how many hundreds of lives might that save?

Nitrox,

First, with the monies going to the hospitals, medicines, yata, yata, yata.... Don't think so.

Second and more importantly, how long will it take the German hunter to get there, before the rouge kills a few more locals and destroys more of their local economy. These types of animals should be dealt with as fast as possible.

Nitrox, I know you mean well, but
money or wallpaper, shouldn't be part of the formula here.JMO

Roger QSL

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
500g,
I've been trying hard to resist participating in this thread.......but your last post took the biscuit for me....
You must have been a member of your schools debating society as that seems to be your calling. No wonder you have over 7000 posts!

Sometimes it's just better to keep quiet rather than make bold statements that have no place amongst intelligent people. Or even better, always start or end your posts with "JMO"....

Easy Bwanamich:
I know it's hard to resist, but you can do it.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
500g,
I've been trying hard to resist participating in this thread.......but your last post took the biscuit for me....
You must have been a member of your schools debating society as that seems to be your calling. No wonder you have over 7000 posts!

Sometimes it's just better to keep quiet rather than make bold statements that have no place amongst intelligent people. Or even better, always start or end your posts with "JMO"....

Easy Bwanamich:
I know it's hard to resist, but you can do it.
Dave

Uh-oh! There's some poodles yapping at me.

quote:

Originally posted by Roger:

Nitrox,

...

Second and more importantly, how long will it take the German hunter to get there, before the rouge kills a few more locals and destroys more of their local economy. These types of animals should be dealt with as fast as possible.

Nitrox, I know you mean well, but
money or wallpaper, shouldn't be part of the formula here.JMO

Roger QSL

Roger, I know you mean well too (right level of return condenscension I hope) but I suggest you pull another hunting book about Africa from your bookcase and read it beside the fireplace.

Also while you are it find a dictionary in your bookcase as well, and look up the word "hypothetical"? I know it is long.

The "money or wallpaper" comment is way above my lowly head. Don't get what it is supposed to mean.

I will explain a little my original question.

1. Life is cheap in Africa. People are always at the risk of being killed by wildlife and when I was in Tanzania two people were killed by elephants nearby. This isn't a big deal and doesn't hit the front page of the Arizona newspapers.

2. Hunters cordone this by demanding wildlife be protected so they can have hunting opportunities.

3. The locals often would like to exterminate all wildlife and eat it, and farm the reserves. Even those who make an income by being employed by the wildlife industries.

4. Some of the locals accept wildlife is a useful source of foreign exchange and money, but only if the country ensures a proportion of sales goes to the local communities.

5. If this elephant had not been sighted in the past or killed anyone, why is there an automatic assumption it will go on a "nightly killing spree".

6. As said many times, I actually agree with the scouts killing the elephant and applaud them as hunters.

7. However "hypothetically" (look up the word if you don't understand it), if there is a million dollar bounty available for such an elephant, some of that money being available to community projects would 'save' a lot more lives than not being available. Brutal reality but true.

Also a few crops destroyed could easily be compensated from such resources.

Of course this is only a hypothetical discussion.

Does this German hunter with the US$1M going spare really exist or is he an urban myth? - And if he does exist what's his criteria?

I reckon I could probably find him a genuine 100 pounder for a fraction of that budget ........They're still there but not many and it would take time to find one but I wouldn't say it's impossible.......

Steve

His name has been mentioned on the AR forums in the past. Maybe a couple years back.

Go for it.

It wouldn't be an urban myth, it would be a "bush myth".

Plus "as size does not matter to the fee" (trophy size) can you find me a second one.

Anyone got a name or an e-mail address?

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Does this German hunter with the US$1M going spare really exist or is he an urban myth? - And if he does exist what's his criteria?

If you do not know his name, then I wonder...

The offer was made about 10 years ago and it was a real offer. The fellow has shot in the neighborhood of 100 elephants as a sport hunter. WIth that info, you should know exactly who it it.

Shakari!
If he is who I think he is, he now owns a farm/ranch near Lemco in Zim.

465H&H

'Fraid not. I'm an ex pat Brit and don't own any land in Zimbabwe at all. My home now is in White River RSA......you'll find my details on my website..........