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I'm considering a hunt using this caliber. Does any one have experience with cape buff or hipps? Thanks. | ||
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What kind of firearm are you shooting in 50 Alaskan? I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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A 50 Alaskan is usually in a converted Mod 71 or a Marlin 1895. Dave Scovill attempted to knock down a buff with his 50-110 several years back and failed miserably. Any lever-gun out there is borderline for the necessary minimum power floor. Lo do they call to me, They bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla, Where the brave may live forever. | |||
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buff are not elephant, but, if you intend to use a soft point need to push a 525grn bullet at at least 2250fps. If you are using a solid, then you will get away with pushing the same bullet at 2100fps. If you plan to use a solid, make sure it has a large meplat to compensate for the lack of expansion. I am a firm believer in softs for buff. A .375 with a premium soft is far mor effective than a .458 with solids. A .50 starts off with a big hole provided you have a sharp cutting edge, but looking at the specs of the .50 Alaskan in COTW, I don't believe you are gaining much over a .375 H&H unless you are loading the round extra hot for use in a ruger No 1. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 475Guy: Dave Scovill attempted to knock down a buff with his 50-110 several years back and failed miserably. I thought he had great results with this rifle in africa. Maybe I am mixed up but I remember reading he shot through a bull and killed a Cow on the off side....maybe I am a little confused. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Disregard everything said in the magazine article. Ask JudgeG if he can retrieve his post on it. Dave Scovill had told JG differently. Lo do they call to me, They bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla, Where the brave may live forever. | |||
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Ganyana, Thnaks for a relevant response...I am always amazed at how many people think that a projectile is somehow has different characteristics depending on what firearm and what case it leaves from... A 500+ grn bullet of 50 Caliber at X velocity is what matters...not what the cartridge or rifle is Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Mike I agree with you, but I think you misunderstood what was being said about the lever guns! What I think he was refering to is, the reccomended pressures for those particular systems, not being able to get enough speed out of the very large, and heavy bullet safely! You are right if you can get the reccomended speed/bullet combination for Cape Buffalo, the the rifle doesn't matter other than it's suitability for fighting Cape Buffalo!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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An 1895. I would also add that the gun can handle rather hot loads i.e 525 gr. solid - 1852 fps with 55 gr. of H4198, with only 34,800 CUP. | |||
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Zich at those specs, stick to a premium jacketed solid with a big meplat. Having seen some rather anemic .458 win loads used on buff (500grn @1890fps actual MV) you are not going to have penetration to spare. On a high shoulder shot (which Doctari favours) it will work but will not exit from side on. A soft would possibly not have enough steam left after breaking the leg and shoulder blade. From front on that combination of bullet diamiter, bullet weight and velocity will break either the spine or penetrate right through into the stomach. | |||
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Having looked at a mad cape buff in the eyes on several ocassions, and those eyes are bloodshot and big as tennis balls and rolling in the top of their heads, and blood spewing out of their noses, makes me wonder where this internet mindset of wanting to shoot them with inferior calibers comes from? Fortunatly its mostly just town talk and few ever do it, and those that do probably bungie jump and chase rabbits and howl at the moon...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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It was John Barsness who told me about the .50/110 results as he was hunting with Dave. It seems that it took half-a-dozen shots, but that happens with every rifle occasionally, it seems. I met them at the Afton House in 2003, or was it on the Unganda Railway in 1913? Ray, don't paint so broad a brush over us howlers-at-the-moon. I don't even have a .45/70, have never seen a bungie that could hold my terrific body and haven't had a whiskey in 20 minutes.  With a 1/1,000,000th the experience of most here, I do agree that solids work much better with Keith type meplats. Just shoot a round nose solid in a paper target, then a flat nose... One just pushes the paper away, and the other cuts a clean hole. I'm not sure that's the exact thing that happens in flesh, but it just makes sense to me... I've seen Mark Sullivan shoot several dozen buffalo on his videos and unless the CNS is hit, even those giant .577's, etc., just don't seem to kill as quickly as a Barnes X or a Swift A-frame in a smaller caliber. Just MHO. If you plan on shooting a buffalo with a gun limited to 1800 fps and a sectional density of less than .300, you should limit your shots to short range (say, inside of 50 yards) and shoot behind the shoulder to try to hit the far one. While it may be quite satisfying to kill a buffalo with a hot-rodded lever gun... I've tried it, btw, it sure does limit your options... and at $1200 @ day, you might want to reconsider and use the classic... a .375 H&H with a low power scope and premium bullets. You'll never get a PH upset with your selection. Ray: Your description of an upset buffalo got me tickled. I had a friend "forget" to come home this weekend and when he finally returned early this morning he found all his crap spread over the front yard and his wife awaiting him with a .38 in her hand, just as dangerous as any wounded daga boy, blood shot eyes and all. Heck, you don't even have to go to Africa for a dangerous experience.... except you might be the game??? JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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Ray, I agree that most is just talk but there are many people who simply have a love of a particular caliber and their hunting dream is to take dangerous game with said caliber. To some hunting with more marginal calibers makes the hunt more "sporting" to others that concept is simply crazy. There simply isn't one size fits all when it comes to individual choice and desire. To each there own. | |||
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Gee Ray, It's probably a good thing I didn't tell you that I know a number of big game hunters that use a bow, and am considering it myself. Carmelo is exactly right. If I wanted to ensure a one-shot kill I'd shoulder a 700 NE, not some relatively puny 416 or other. We can argue all day but it will be difficult to convince me that a properly placed 50 Alaskan solid gas checked shot will not humanely bring home any critter on the continent. BTW, my custom 1895 has a 26 1/4 barrel and capacity for 8 rnds. | |||
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Ah, so you have already made up your mind and choose to disregard the advice of more experienced folks. You must work for the government. "There always seems to be a big market for making the clear, complex." | |||
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That would appear to be the bottom line. | |||
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The bottom line would be $ if one could hunt Dangerous game critters with the accesibility equaling say Whitetails, you would see many people hunting with calibers of their choice. Other than those who can afford to hunt their dream game with their caliber of choice it will always be Internet talk. | |||
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The "best" caliber should take into consideration aspects other than what has historically worked. I have no intension of upsetting the status quo here and I do very much appreciate the advice and asistance made available here. Having said that, unless there is some empiracle evidence that a 525 grain 50 Alaskan round won't work, I think there is enough supporting balistic data that suggestes it will. This is not idle talk. While I need to wait until my children are much older before I can afford such a trip, I do plan to take the gun for either cape buffalo or elephant. Thanks again for your advise, as hide-bound as some of it is. | |||
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 Then you dont know jack about lever action 50-110's do ya cowboy If you cant kill a Cape with a 50-110 then you cant kill a Cape with a 505 Gibbs. is that what your saying becouse both of them are the same ballisticly. 50-110 - 525 grain jacketed Pa bullet 10%deg taper to a meplat of .350 .. Vel/ 2400 FPS Jacket wall thickness 0.050 .Rilfe used . ..Browning BRL convertion from 300 Winchester Mag to 50-110 .. Ok ok i know that the BLR is not really a lever action "Pre say" its a box feed lever action but never underestamate the lengths someone is or will be will to go to prove that a lever "Type" rifle cant drop a Cape or for that matter a Rhino.. If more folks would do like i did and just buy a BLR in 300 winchester mag and get it converted to 50-110 instead of using the Winchester or Browning copy then manybe there would be less bitching from the supposed African Big Game Hunting on this forum and the over all caost is under 1200.00 for new sights and barrel and the rechambering and gauging from 300 win. to 50-110 and no one can say diffrent not when both rifles do the same thing . end of story and of discussion. side note : the barrel on mine is a 24 1/2 inch | |||
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Martin, Have you killed any Cape buffalo or elephant with that rig and those bullets? George  | |||
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 Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Nope just one small Elk thats it there aren't many Cape Bufalo or Rhino or elephant's here in Coos Bay .. and i dont think thay would take it kindly if i wacked one at Wildlife Safari in Winston Oregon , although i have had my Toyota land cruisers door rearanged by a rhino there.. . So i get by your post GeorgeS that the 505 Gibbs is under powered thanks i won't order a CZ then .. Martin | |||
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Martin, I asked because your statement sounded authoritative, as in someone had proven the rifle/cartridge/bullet combination effective on Cape buff or elephant. George P.S. I couldn't care less about your .50-110 vs. .505 Gibbs comparison, and I never mentioned either one in my post. What are you being so defensive about?  P.P.S. I don't care whether you get a CZ or not. | |||
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Nice.. GeorgeS ..sarcasum segways slights .. O boy ..I cant wait for the next round of D- Nile If you didnt care about the comparison why post up .. LOL s i c 3 years ... shame on you old boy D-Nile D-nile nice but no cigar.. If you dont care .. if i get a CZ why post up .. lol ... OoOo always that last word AHH George Old Boy .. Bonkkkk!! Did all this fly over your head .. ? | |||
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If I was told that I HAD to choose between a pointy stick tossed by a string on another stick, or any centerfire LEVER gun. To hunt anything and everthing on the dark cont. I will take the the levergun, reguardless of cal. Picking my shots best suited to what I am carring. This thread has had NO mentionn of the PH who would be there with the hunter, as no sport hunting is done there without a PH as backup anyway. Forgeting action types of a minute, how on earth was anything killed in Africa without smokeless/nitro powders and the high velosity they produce. If I ever get to go after a dugga boy, I WILL HAVE my 458 Lott and 500gr/2300fps ammo. Because I want the biggest buff swatter I have to do the job, but thats how I want to do it. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Martin/Hog The main issue here is that many of the Old Timers here on A/R seem to get offended when they feel that people don't take their advice. Or that one specific viewpoint is more valid or authoritative than another. We all know that many Dangerous game animals have been taken with Pointy Sticks, with Black powder single shots, with 45-70's with Lever Guns, Bolts, handguns, even .22's. Different folks have different dreams of where, what and how to hunt. No one individual is anymore correct than another. Granted I will say that there are guidelines that have been tried and tested, proving to be known killers without marginalizing safety but every man has a different comfort level and it is up to that person to decide what that it. The "SNOB" effect (and we all know what I mean) is more of a "in crowd" hangup than anything positive. | |||
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Martin, So your post about the .50-110 with your 525gr. bullets was strictly conjecture, and NOT based on actual field experience. How surprising. Not.  Georgeg | |||
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George, Out of curiosity does whether or not Martin's post was based on field experience or conjecture have some sort of bearing on the specfics of the ballistics? Or whether or not the choice of a .50 Alaskan is valid for Buff? | |||
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Carmelo, When people state something as an 'absolute', I like to find out whether that statement is based on practice or theory. Using a rifle/cartridge/bullet combination on a single (small) elk does not, by extension, make it a viable combination for Cape buffalo and elephant (it's like saying that just because something worked on Unix once, it will surely work on Linux). The funny thing is, I actually asked the question out of curiosity, since one rarely, if ever, hears of BLRs being used in Africa, let alone on Cape buffalo or elephant. Apparently, however, Martin has much to be defensive about.  George | |||
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Dangeous game is called that for a very good reason. They do kill people. IMHO using a sub-marginal weapon increases the chance of wounding an animal and causing a charge. Most charges can and will be stopped. But sooner or later someone will get hurt or killed. If you want to risk your life, go for it. But do you want to risk the lives of your PH and trackers just so you can have the satisfaction of using a sub-marginal weapon? 465H&H | |||
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This is all just a bunch of internet jabber because none of these guys who get their feathers ruffled about lever actions are ever going to write out a check in the correct amount and take a lever to Africa to use for ele or buff. | |||
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I can't speak on defensiveness or not, but I do see your point and respect it. | |||
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For elephant I would agree with you. Not so for Cape Buff... | |||
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Carmello, I'm not takeing sides here, and you may think anything you want, but paper ballistics is not a very good indication of a cartridge's effectiveness on a Cape Buffalo, eventhough that is the basic criteria the Game people use to declare minimums. Some animals are simply harder to kill than others, eventhough they may weigh exactly the same amount. A BIG elk is a tough animal, and he has pretty good stamina for staying on his feet when hit a little off center, or with a bullet that is too small. The large Elk can come very close the weighing the same as a average young Bull Cape Buffalo. That, however, is where the similarity ends! The buff can take shots, all out of perportion to his size, and kick you butt, several shots of the kind that one would absolutely flatten a VERY LARGE ELK! The balistics people, who haven't been there, use to say a certain cartridge is suited to a Cape Buffalo, are most times based on weight, and size of the animal,IOW, based on theory, rather than on the particular species's ability to withstand punishment. This is why people, who HAVE been there, always ask if the claiming person has! That should be evident oto anyone. One small example, A Badger weighs in at only about 25 pounds, but can take multiple dirrect hits, at close range, with a 30-30, and fight your butt up a tree, before he dies. While that same bullet will knock a 150 lb deer right off his feet, at 100 yds. One should not use a rifle for any game that will work perfectly, if everything is perfect, but should arm himself with a rifle that will work, if EVERYTHING is WRONG, especially if dangerous game is the quary! All I'm trying to make clear is, the fact that a person HAS hunted Cape Buffalo, and is aware, first hand, of his tenacity, and resistance to horrendous wounds, is infinantly more qualified to say what will work best for Cape Buffalo. Not based on paper theory, but first hand experience! Like it or not that is a fact! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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The plural of anecdote is not data. Anything can happen in a small sample size. One person's experience may mean a lot to him, but statistically, it means next to nothing. If you want to really know something, you have to collect a lot of data. In the hunting world there are so many variables that consistent data is nearly impossible to collect. What has worked over many years, for many people, is about the best we can do. | |||
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As for myself, my "feathers" are in no way ruffled. I admit I am somewhat suprised at the renunciation of leverguns on cape buff. Your second comment regarding a levergunner never actually hunting cape buff is quite ignorant. It's been successfully done. | |||
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Interesting thread. We have people who think a .50 Ak will kill a buffalo with no experience using one to shoot buffalo, and we have people who have shot buffalo but, not with a .50AK., who say its a terrible idea.  I've got two .50AK. Browning Model 71s. I've never shot a buffalo, but I have shot a couple moose. I'm sure a moose is easier to kill than a buffalo, but I would not hesitate to use a .50AK on one. A 570 Grain Kodiak bullet at 2000FPS would probably get his attention. I've shot a lot of Goats, (they are tough!)so I know the difference between paper ballistics and the real thing. If I live long enough to go after buffalo, I will take a .50AK and then we will know for sure how they perform. | |||
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Perhaps a reading comprehension course would be helpful to you. I did not say it had not been done. But I did say that you guys who have your feathers ruffled aren't going to do it. Not sure if it is lack of funds or lack of gonads, but the result is the same. Just empty internet jabber. | |||
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500grains--If there were no empty internet jabber, this forum would not have 10,000 posts, much less 100,000.  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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First, my feathers aren't ruffled. I am currious why "ruffled feathers" is a determinant factor. While you may not need a reading comprehension course, you could certainly use assistance with your reasoning. Please explain why "ruffled feathers" determines whether or not a hunter will use a 50AK on buff. Perhaps a few more shots of Thunderbird will assist you. I'm ready for a truce, if you are. I will admit that I can learn much from the members here, if you'll admit that this forum is best served by open discussions, in a non-acusational manner, that discusses peoples experiences and dreams regarding a sport they love. That is the reason I joined this week. If I'm wrong, I will look elsewhere for that experience. | |||
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