quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
500grains--If there were no empty internet jabber, this forum would not have 10,000 posts, much less 100,000.

Well said mrlexma....

I think some folks tend to feel that the only valid posts are the ones they make. All others are simply "jabber"

.

Getting back on topic:

I would not recommend using a lever gun for this hunt for these reasons:

1) You could get charged at "point-blank range" and get stomped....better to have a harder hitting (Stopping) weapon handy.
2) Your PH "COULD" back you up, but as was the case with me this summer, my PH was the target of the charge and I had to stop the bull....had I been using a 50 AK...The PH reference might stand for "Post Humous" as we chatter about this. Point being - you will knowingly be endangering others in your party using inferior calibers to "show-off".
3) Lack of available ammunition should your rifle and ammo get separated is yet another reason.

I guess this is anaogolous to plowing a field using horse and plow versus using the latest John Deere equipment...Just because you like horses and old antique implements does'nt necessarily justify their use given the fact that better more sensible options exist, and there are others depending on you. Selfishly choose the former and your family might starve this winter.

Putting others at risk to satisfy one's own personal whims does'nt cut it with me.

Get in the game and stop fantasizing about some lame-assed BS caliber that has no place in the African bush. Shoot some hogs!

Just my HO,

JW

Jeff,

I think you would only be putting someone at risk if you provided them false information about the firearm you were hunting with and showed up with something else.

A 500 grain bullet at 2000fps is right around .458 win mag ballistics and I suspect that few PH's would have issue with someone using the caliber. A .375 H&H can HARDLY be considered a "charge stopper" Yet they are used all the time.

Your PH should know they firearm caliber and type you are hunting with. IF they are fine with you hunting that caliber then there is no "risk" that would be out of the norm for hunting in general.

I really believe you guys want to apply a stigma to lever's and cartridges you deem have no African D/G value.

The question was ASKED, which means the poster wanted our opinnions, so we answered with our opinnions, and now were "snobs" according to Carmelo????.....If someone knows the answer to a question, then why ask others for an opinnion, presumably just to start an arguement....That happens on chat rooms, at SCI and in any locations where hunters congregate.

I don't care what you hunt anything with, I have shot Cape Buffalo with a worn out military Mauser in 8x57 and used green coated old ammo that was given to me in a paper bag and every 3rd one went off..I killed half a dozen buffalo that day and it was exciting to say the least...
Based on that I will forever consider the 8x57 and military ball thats old and seldom goes off a first class buffalo stopper!!!

If the 50 AK will toss a good solid weighing 500 plus grains at a pressure safe 2000 FPS, then its a buffalo gun IMO...If it does less then it is not, that is why the 45-70 sucks IMO, and based on my use with it on elk and deer, its a punken roller and kills poorly.

As to archery, fine with me, you have a PH to pull you ass out of the fire if it goes bad and if it does not you have pictures of the buff, stick and string, and you to boast broadly about...To me you proved that if that stick cuts a major vessel that a grand animal wondered off and died for you, had he chose to fight, then your ph would save you or die trying...

Sorry if I'm a snob, but I believe that all game should be hunted with proper calibers out of respect for the animal, not to satisfy your own self esteem which is already large enough..and yes I am as guilty as the next guy for using the wrong calibers on game, but that was early in my life, about the time my balls dropped and long before my mind kicked in, and I am afraid that is the scenario that we have here!!

Ray, not all are snobs but DEFINITELY some...

The snobbery statement is based on the belittling comments that some make when their opinions aren't agreed with. IF asked a question and one provides an opinion that is a discussion. It doesn't make the opinion right or wrong. Or obligate the the questioner to agree.

I don't think anyone here would dispute your words about respecting the animals we hunt.

But there are varying thoughts on just what caliber humanely makes the distinction.

Again a forum is a place for open discussion where people exchange ideas.
Some people choose to forget that every now and then.
(that's the only point I am trying to make)

quote:

Originally posted by zich6:
I'm ready for a truce, if you are. I will admit that I can learn much from the members here, if you'll admit that this forum is best served by open discussions, in a non-acusational manner, that discusses peoples experiences and dreams regarding a sport they love. That is the reason I joined this week. If I'm wrong, I will look elsewhere for that experience.

HOLD ON, Zich6, nobody wants anyone to leave this forum! There will always be differences of opinion on just about anything one can find to discuss, and that is no reason for anyone to get upset, and walk out, or for them to be run out of camp!

Everyone thinks that most here believe it is the lever action rifle that is objected to, and that is not the case. Then others think it is the cartridge that is objected to. Both are right, and both are wrong, and are only general opinions, not binding on anyone. It is some of the combinations of cartridge,and rifle and what they are to be used for, that is more important.

Your cartridge, if properly loaded, and can put a proper bullet in the 2000, to 2150 fps at muzzle, it will do an acceptable job on Cape buffalo. The rub comes when those who believe it will make the required speed/diameter/SD/ bullet construction, in most cases are simply guessing, and are not supported with field, or range tests to prove this is possible in the rifle they are suggesting! The key, here, is proper bullet, proper speed,and the rifle's ability to produce the required combination of things to make all this happen. It isn't the lever action that is in question, but the strength of the rifle, regardles of the action. The powder capacity of the case in question, and finally the weight, and construction of the bullet @ the required speed.

IMO, most here think the required conditions needed to make this cartridge, anything but a minimaly acceptable cartridge for Cape buffalo, is pushing the limits of the case capacity/bullet WT, and SD, and speed to make a proper bullet work acceptably, is suspect.

Nobody, here, is trying to say the rifle/cartrige combination will not kill a cape buffalo, it absolutely will, but so will a .22 lr. The thing being asked is, is it a wise choice, in the first place, and is it legal in the second place. The last question are the balistics needed actually achievable in the rifle you want to use it in, and if it is, is it a safe load, or is it pushing the envelope a littl too much?

I'm glad you are here, and I will happily back you up with a proper Cape Buffalo rifle while you do your thing on one! Right here let me say one thing, and I'll get off this string! An Alaska/Yukon Moose is "NOT" a cape Buffalo, and a bullet that will whizz right through a BIG moose's shoulders, bones and all, will stop inside a Cape Buffalo, sometimes not getting past the on side shoulder bone!

Stick around, I learn something from every poster I read, and hopefully, they learn something from the experience of 68 yr old who has been hunting big game sinse the age of six yrs, when I killed my first deer, hunting by myself.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
This is all just a bunch of internet jabber because none of these guys who get their feathers ruffled about lever actions are ever going to write out a check in the correct amount and take a lever to Africa to use for ele or buff.

Why you pompus asswipe! Tell us how you know that Mr Legal Eagle.
"the pipes,the pipes are calling Danny Boy..." maybe you should lay off those pipes for awhile you're getting goofier with each post!!!!!!

cats,

In the seven years I've been a Member of AR, no one who inquired about the advisability of lever-actions and the cartridges we're discussing for Cape buffalo and elephant has subsequently gone to Africa, taken Cape buffalo and/or elephant with that combination, and come back to tell us about it.

George

Then I suggest you look a tad harder. I'm asking Danny Boy to produce his evidence that he made his pompus holier than thou statement from
BTW I don't know you or your background but I do know of Martin Potts an I'll lay my $$$ that Martin has has done more tests an has more experience than any 10 of these pompus windbags here. whom bought a big bore DBl gun and trotted off to the dark land to shoot some hapless buff someone else pointed out to them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:

As to archery, fine with me, you have a PH to pull you ass out of the fire if it goes bad and if it does not you have pictures of the buff, stick and string, and you to boast broadly about...To me you proved that if that stick cuts a major vessel that a grand animal wondered off and died for you, had he chose to fight, then your ph would save you or die trying...
QUOTE]

Ray,
Is this statement any different than someone taking a large bore rifle, shooting a buff at 200 yards and it wandering off to die?

GTR


For the record, I find shooting animals with a rifle to be mechanical and not much of a challenge. To each his own.

Jesus ……..I’ve not been here in a month or so…glad to see nothings changed.

What this forum needs is an enema!

If Ray was selling the archery hunt he'd swear that the new compounds are better for buff sticking than a 470 NE

quote:

Jesus ……..I’ve not been here in a month or so…glad to see nothings changed.

We wouldn't want to shock you.

quote:

What this forum needs is an enema!

Truer words yet spoken. It amazes me how a group of grown men can argue quite so much. Such is life I suppose; at least some of its entertaining...

It all comes down to the age old "Brains versus Testosterone" ideological battle.

The farther one deviates away from the proven calibers for Buffalo the greater are the chances for disaster; wounded / lost animals, injured / killed humans.

The bar has been pretty much set at .375. From there and up - (speaking in ft. lbs of course), the greater your chances are for getting him down quickly and safely....Brains!

Go below that mark and the likliness of mishaps, potentially fatal to the shooter, PH, et al increase exponentially with each downgrade in overall power....Testosterone method.

If you are out to prove your manliness then take on another man; e.g. fight in the UFC, run a Marathon, start a business, drive race-cars.

Shooting an animal does not make anyone any kind of bad-ass! This kind of "A-hole - macho-man" image has become pervasive in this sport and had done more to fuel the "Antis" cause than any other single thing related to hunting! Trying to prove that you are some sort of "Gun Stud" by shooting a Buffalo with an underpowered rifle is the same kind of BS. Sure, the culling details of days gone by shot plenty of Eles and Buff with 7.62 x 51 - they had no choice.

We wealthy westerners do have a choice and should have the intelligence to make the right one.

This ain't the 20s when anything was a go....nowadays we have the technology and knowhow and people watching us that it is a responsibility to use the correct calibers when shooting DG, or any other animals for that matter.

Drop the issue, get a DG rifle and go hunting.

JW

PS - If you are that hell-bent on killing a buffalo with a Lever gun....get somebody to build you one up in .375 rimmed - I'll bet it can be done on an 1895 action.

GTR,
Who waxed you into believing a Buffalo cannot be killed at 200 yards with a powerfull big game rifle, have you tried it?

I have killed a Buff at long range just like any other animal and the last one I shot was an instant kill with a 380 gr. Northfork from a 416 Remington, Saeed has done that many times and at least once this year...

I guess my question is have you killed a Buffalo instantly at any range with a bow??

As for cats and Tembo, I just don't know what to say except maybe "kiss ole spot"

quote:

Originally posted by cats:
Then I suggest you look a tad harder. I'm asking Danny Boy to produce his evidence that he made his pompus holier than thou statement from
BTW I don't know you or your background but I do know of Martin Potts an I'll lay my $$$ that Martin has has done more tests an has more experience than any 10 of these pompus windbags here. whom bought a big bore DBl gun and trotted off to the dark land to shoot some hapless buff someone else pointed out to them.

cats,
I suggest YOU point out who you are referring to.

I'll take that bet, too. Testing on inanimate media is not proof of anything except a bullet's effect on inanimate media. Also, as far as I know, Martin Potts has never claimed that he'd hunted Africa, let alone taken DG with a lever-action.

Pay up or shut up, fool.

George

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
500grains--If there were no empty internet jabber, this forum would not have 10,000 posts, much less 100,000.

Well said mrlexma....

I think some folks tend to feel that the only valid posts are the ones they make. All others are simply "jabber"

Carmel,


Go shoot an elephant with your Marlin, then come back and tell us about it.

Until that it is just jabber.

Ray,
I have reread my post and I do not see where I said anything about not being able to kill a buff at 200 yards with a rifle.

To answer your question, No.

I am not sure if you failed to comprehend what I was asking or that I have failed in asking. Guess it is a stand off.

GTR

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
500grains--If there were no empty internet jabber, this forum would not have 10,000 posts, much less 100,000.

Well said mrlexma....

I think some folks tend to feel that the only valid posts are the ones they make. All others are simply "jabber"

Carmel,


Go shoot an elephant with your Marlin, then come back and tell us about it.

Until that it is just jabber.

Hey retard, no intention of ever hunting elephant. Never ever said anything of the sort. If I did, who would give a crap about telling your dumb ass anyway.

this thread is full of the usual suspects.

I'm suprised that some of you folks who've been around keep taking the bait!

Carmelo,

Are you still impersonating my handle '500grains' on your worldwanker.com website?

Bwanamich:

This thread is a discussion like any number of others, Stay the hell out of iit if you don't like the topic!

You act like someone is forcing you to read it.

The only typical thing about this thread is that moron Danny Mccarty aka 500grains wants to divert a discussion about hunting and calibers to his personal agenda. Danny go do some work!Do the managing partners at your law firm have any idea how much time you spend on Hunting Websites when you should be billing some hours to clients?

The one thing I don't understand about strings like this one is, why does everyone have to get angry, and start the name calling? There is no way evryone will agree on such a controvercial issue, but thing go to hell when the JERKOFFs start the "NAME CALLING" like that above in red! That was not aimed at anyone in particular, yet someone will take issue with because he thinks in his mind he has acted in a way that he is the one being named with the slander!

There are some facts involved here, but they are lost on those who only think they know, yet have no background to justify their theories!

Gentlemen, you fingers should be getting callouses from banging the keys in anger!

All mouth rattle, and nothing gained!

...........BYE!

MAC,

The discussion was heated as usual but was going fine until Danny Mccarty aka 500grains decidied to veer off-topic and start getting into personal attacks.

One only has to scroll up to see this for oneself.

Danny if you are bored at the law firm then ask your boss to give you more interesting projects to work on. Perhaps then the firms IT resources won't be dedicated to your Internet Bafoonery

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
MAC,

The discussion was heated as usual but was going fine until Danny Mccarty aka 500grains decidied to veer off-topic and start getting into personal attacks.

One only has to scroll up to see this for oneself.

Danny if you are bored at the law firm then ask your boss to give you more interesting projects to work on. Perhaps then the firms IT resources won't be dedicated to your Internet Bafoonery

Speaking of getting off topic and resorting to personal attaks! Is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

465H&H

465,

Yes it is, but a case born on the defensive rather than the offensive.

There is a difference

You will note when that moron 500grains leaves people alone the conversations tend to stay civil..

quote:

Originally posted by carmelolisciotto:
465,

You will note when that moron 500grains leaves people alone the conversations tend to stay civil..

you just nailed it 100% in the X ring Carmelo

Proof.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupo.asp

quote:

I thought he had great results with this rifle in africa. Maybe I am mixed up but I remember reading he shot through a bull and killed a Cow on the off side....maybe I am a little confused

I believe that was Brian Pearce. In the next issue Mr. Scovill was very emphatic in his opening editorial column that the Nitro proofed big bore rounds (.375 on up), shooting appropriate bullets were much superior to lever guns.

The "cowboy in Africa" schtick has been done before, and better. Any cowboy who has stayed in Africa for any length of time has picked up a big bore gun appropriate for the game.

Isn't that the charm of hunting in different places; use the 50 Alaskan on moose in the Tanana flats, a 416 Rigby in the Selous, a 270 Win on a mountain top sheep hunt and Glock to cap a banger in Detroit?

lawndart

PS Oopsie; now that you drag out the Garrett Cartridges URL I take back everything I said.

quote:

Proof.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/lupo.asp

Dork.

Too lazy to check out the Garret website, but didn't Lupo clain to kill two and half buffalo with one hardcast super-penetrating 45-70 round? Yeah, I believe it........not.

I think the point for some of the doubters is: This should put the "can the .50 Alaskan take any game on the planet easily" discussion to bed. BTW, I finally got mine delivered yesterday - 8 + 1 is sweet.

quote:

didn't Lupo clain to kill two and half buffalo with one hardcast super-penetrating 45-70 round?

What? Did he just wing the third buff a little? I wonder what half a buffalo looks like?

Tex -- depends on which end you are looking at! LOL!!

quote:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Anything can happen in a small sample size.

One person's experience may mean a lot to him, but statistically, it means next to nothing.

Theres more wisdom in thoses few words, than the whole lot of post here!

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Tex -- depends on which end you are looking at! LOL!!

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but the game taken, in this case with a 45-70, was not an anecdote, it was a fact, that is supported by eye witnesses, and backed by Garrett cartridges. If the assertions weren't true, Garrett would have a substantial legal liability. You can bet they got the facts straight. Secondly, the point here is not to be statistically valid. Just because it's done infrequently, doesn't mean it is an unreliable method that can't be easily repeated.

The reason I brought this new evidence to light, was to assist in broadening the perspective of what can be an accepted caliber for taking African dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by zich6:
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, but the game taken, in this case with a 45-70, was not an anecdote, it was a fact, that is supported by eye witnesses, and backed by Garrett cartridges. If the assertions weren't true, Garrett would have a substantial legal liability. You can bet they got the facts straight. Secondly, the point here is not to be statistically valid. Just because it's done infrequently, doesn't mean it is an unreliable method that can't be easily repeated.

The reason I brought this new evidence to light, was to assist in broadening the perspective of what can be an accepted caliber for taking African dangerous game.

Zich,

This is really a pretty simple deal.

If you want to hunt dangerous African game with your new rifle or anything for that matter. Shut the f'up and go do it!

Why are you sitting here begging validation and premission from people on this web sight?

Here is a how you get started. Turn off the computer, call a booking agent or an outfitter direct, Take about $6,000 of your favorite dollars and send them to said booking agent or outfitter. Find cheap airfare and about 3 weeks free of work, best time is during our summer later more better.

About one month before hunt send another of your favorite $6,000 dollars to said booking agent or outfitter. Drag you and your new .50 Alaskan over to said country of choice and shoot said dangerous animal.

It's really that simple. You should try it. And until then please refrain from giving people who've been there and done it advice on what they should be shooting in Africa.

If this makes you angry or makes you feel you need to reply with some flipant B.S. from the Garrett web sight please refer to paragraph two sentence two.

I am aware that this post is direct rude and to the point. But the simple fact of the matter is is simply this. There will NEVER be agreement on the lever gun subject. It has become a "class" issue and has nothing to do with the capability of the firearm in question. If you are serious about hunting DG in Africa get off your duff and go do it. It doesn't matter what rifle you use it doesn't matter what other people think of it. It's your choice, it's your money, it's your hunt.

Hell if you pay enough even the PH will compiment you on your shooting and your choice of rifles.

If you are going to hunt then go hunt. If you are just going to sit and mentally masterbait about "my new rifle" and how cool it would be. then please don't post here. It is a waste of time.

A very good friend of mine, Rich Lucibella has killed three buffalo with his Marlin in .45-70 in Tanzania. He could afford with out A SECOND THOUGHT, to right now pay cash for not only any double rifle in the world, he could probably buy the company as well. Why does he shoot a Marlin? Because he wnats to. I think that says it all.

Why do I shoot a double? See above. everything accept the money part. That's one thing I don't have.

Unfortunately for all the reasonable shooters here, it's necessary to remind you that one of the most important purposes of this, and all forums on the internet, is to provide experiences, your or others, that can be of interest. As I said, the purpose of my bringing this up was just that. "Begging for validation" couldn't be further from my mind. Here is a quote from Accurate Reloading Home Page. You need to re-read it:

"This site was started by a group of shooters, whose interests include hunting, target shooting and plain plinking. The idea was to share what we have learned from hunting, reloading, gunsmithing and any other shooting related ideas. We are not affiliated to any company involved in the shooting and hunting sports. So what you will find here are our actual experiences, good or bad. If you have any interesting ideas, or if you have come across anything you think might be of interest to other fellow shooters, please consider sharing it with us, we would love to hear from you."

Obviously, my attempt to bring information I thought "might be of interest to other fellow shooters" was met by your "shut the f'up." Hardly in line with the founders intention for this site. Who is being flippant here?

I understand that anyone can have a bad morning, but my advise to you is be open to new experiences and information. Having your brain on transmit only is no way to go through life.

Zich6,

You want to argue with over 100 years of experience that has narrowed the ballistic profile of what works well, reliably, on DG in Africa. Why bother, the debate has been had long, long ago.

If you want to read lots of imput about the performance of cartriges in the class you favor you just need to read the books written by the guys who hunted before nitro powder.

If you want to read real, results on game, camparisons between the 45/70 or 50 Alaskan classes of cartriges and Nitro Express class cartriges just read books written by guys who hunted through the transition from black powder to Nitro.

Every fellow who hunted during the transition made the switch and the Nitro Express cartriges from 450/400 NE up came out being relied upon and the older Express class cartriges fell by the wayside. There is a reason for this and in one word it is performance.

Tons of dangerous game, including all of the Big Five have fallen to 50 Alaskan class of cartriges, most all of it before the advent of Nitro powder and the turn of the century. Your cartrige will kill DG, its simply not the optimum choice. Some, including me, don't think its a wise choice.

You need to get off your duff and go give it a try! I'm sure you can find a PH who will hunt you with your rifle for buff. Hell, the PH I hunted with in Oct told me he'd hunt a guy with a 45/70. He was fine with the idea of a full frontal or full broadside shot with a 45/70. Go give it a try!

I don't think you could find a PH who would go after elephant with you carrying your 50 Alaskan though. My guess is that after a couple of buff and being around elephants you wouldn't want to go after them with a 50 Alaskan class of cartrige either.

If you want to swim against the tide of history and proven results, no problem, its you hunt, but just go get 'er done.

JPK

If you are really interested in going and you want to make serious inquiries about going with a very good PH who will hunt with you and your rifle shoot me a PM and I'll forward his name and contact info.