JPK

There was no attack on those who prefer scopes? I prefer scopes? ?????

We are talking about shooting up close, fast, with various sight systems. With those who have less experience SHOOTING in that arena it is more difficult for them to switch from iron sights to scope. I watch it all the time with different individuals. I watch them waiver trying to find the target, I watch them shoot low at close range because they forget about the scope being above the bore, I watch all sort of things such as this. In tests I have conducted, those with less experience shooting in this situation do better with iron sights--and do very well with an Aimpoint type device. Ghost rings are very easy and more precise--put that front post on and ready to go! This is what they are designed for--I have many ghost rings on many of my rifles.

Whining my ass! I state it is for the individual, and there is no wrong choices. If your eyes are good-you are used to iron sights then that is what you should do. It is difficult with irons, no doubt. You have 3 things to line up--target-front sight-rear sight. Only one can be in focus-always the front sight-the other two are out of focus. But most of the time we all grow up with iron sights, so that is second nature. It is up to the individual--I can't, nor can you, see thru his eyes!

Won't learn much without moving targets, brush, cover. Pure bunk. To start with one can learn without even going to the range. One must learn how to handle ones rifle or handgun first. Good gun handling, practice mounting rifle, and such things will account for excellent work on the range without ever firing a shot. If one can't get on target on a standing still target at 10 steps--going to moving targets is not going to help at all, and in fact frustrate the shooter! You start at the bottom and work your way up---not the other way around.

To all those other than JPK---Use what works for you. If you do well with irons and your eyes are good-this is you--if you do well with a scope and can get on target quickly and efficiently then this is you! Whichever system you use just do some shooting with it, practice getting on target quickly and getting that all important first shot in the right place. Speed cannot overcome accuracy--and speed will come with practice. I am not arguing either way best or not best---The Individual has to make that choice based on his particular abilities and experience-end of story.

Michael

Michael, I have corrected the typo in my previous post since it should have read, "don't prefer scopes." That must have been apparent to even you.

As for the rest of your drivel, I guess I just presume that a fellow who is going elephant hunting knows which end of the rifle a bullet comes out of.

JPK

JPK

The people involved on this forum (in all the forums on various subjects on AR) is a very very small group compared to the amount of people who shoot and or hunt. The folks that are involved on these forums I believe for the most part are experienced shooters, hunters, and not only talk the talk, but most can walk the walk.

Now in all my travels and all my hunts I never remember actually meeting for sure one of our members in the field. Now it is possible, but I am not aware of it, nor do I think I have. I have met many so called hunters in the field or in camp that know absolutely nothing about gun handling, shooting, scopes, rifles, bullet, don't handload, nothing! Some have never even fired their rifles before getting to camp, and get the PH or guide to do it for them. Some bought their ammo at the WalMart-when asked what bullet they are shooting they draw a blank? I have been in camp with people that wounded every single animal they shot at, lost most of them! I have been in camp with people that have requested the PH shoot all their animals for them. The list goes on and on and on. So it is my opinion that MANY-not all-not the majority-but very many that go to the field have very little experience actually shooting. I have been with some good people that can and do shoot--but most that I have run into have not been in the category. Now maybe it is just my luck to be in camp with idiots, I don't know. I can tell you this, I have little respect for them. And that when I took up hunting again some years ago I was astounded at the lack of training, lack of shooting experience, gun handling, and damn right dangerous to themselves and everyone around them. I could not imagine that one would go to the field without the needed skills to accomplish the mission.

Drivel? If you say so that is fine. If you say it is drivel to train proper, that's your opinion. If you say it is drivel to state that it is up to each individual to decide what sight system works best for them, then that too is your opinion. I say you "Presume" too much!

Michael

Guys,

The 2 elephants I've shot have been taken with a scope equipped 458. For me and hunters who have never taken much game with open sights I think a scope makes a lot of sense for everything. Most hunters are not going to shoot multiple elephants and to try and learn a new discipline to shoot one elephant doesn't seem practical and in reality I don't see most hunters actually doing it.

I am not saying that scopes are better for elephant hunting when the hunter has good eyes, is very comfortable with open sights and understands that he will need to get very close to make a precise shot. For the average guy like me though I don't think open sights are anymore necessary than a double rifle.

Mark

I agree that the QD type rings being too slow when needed for this sort of thing, especially if they are cranked down tight and require a tool of some sort to loosen. I wonder why the "Swing" or "Tip-Off" type of mounts don't seem to be popular anymore? After putting QD mounts on my .375 before a buffalo hunt, I realized that there would be no way to get them off without a lot of trouble, so after tons of internet research and searching I found an old set of Tip-Off mounts that worked on my rifle with my low power scope. At first I was afraid that it wouldn't hold up to recoil and constant "tipping", but it turned out to hold accuracy 100%. After hitting a buffalo last year, the rest of the herd started moving our way and I had that thing tipped off in about 2 seconds and was ready. I saw Capstick recommend these in a video somewhere, so maybe he was on to something. Never hunted Elephant, but I don't see why this type of mount wouldn't work with them as well.

Michael,

First, don't put words into my mouth.

Second, how many of those dodo's you cite were elephant hunting? Not many I suspect, eh.

Third, you must have a very low opinion of SBT to believe that he needs to figure out which end of the rifle a bullet comes out of.

Current count: 8 for irons, 5 for scopes, 3 stradling.

JPK

quote:

Current count: 8 for irons, 5 for scopes, 3 stradling.

I prefer irons up close. The tracker can carry the second rifle with a scope if you think you will take a longer shot.

JPK

Listen, hard for you I realize, My drivel as you state is that it is up to the individual, his experience, his eyesight and so on. If you term that as my drivel, then I can't put words in your mouth, that come direct out of your mouth.

Second, yes, some of those bozos were hunting elephant, but yes, less than otherwise.

Third I addressed SBT direct in my first post, and nothing thereafter had anything to do with him direct--so who is making up crap now? Anywhere here did I say SBT could not figure out which end the bullet comes out of? Damn, I don't recall that!

Please continue to keep count, I am not sure for what reason, but it seems to keep you busy.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by timot:
I can not believe that hunters listen to what the likes of Buzz Chalton tells hunters. The YOUNG man who has less than 10 years of elephant hunting under his belt can tell people how to hunt these magnificent dangerous beasts. He produced one DVD on how to hunt elephant and now he is the expert. The likes of Clem Coetzee and his brother Paul and Ian Nyschens should be the people to ask these questions.These honarable people would puke if they saw the DVD's that have been produced recently, they give no respect to the elephants.

Huh? Nyschens was in Buzz's video!!! Even the old farts couldn't agree on things.

For the most part Buzz's ele video is good info and good advice. His shot placement ain't really spot on but who would know?!!

BTW, if an elephant is about to step on you, trying to place a shot with a scope is going to be tough going. A scope wouldn't be my first pick, no matter how bad my eyesight.

Timot,

Ian Nyschens, Richard Harland and Sten Cedergren were all interviewed on Buzz's DVD and none puked, at least on camera. Between the three of them I understand they have taken at least a half dozen elephant, maybe more.

So what are your credentials and we can each then form our own judgment as to whose opinions we chose to believe?

And you may be right about some not giving elephant what I consider their due respect, but Nyschens, for example, did nothing but shoot for ivory (money) as many others did, and then lament the advance of civilization as he climbed into his Land Rover! Oh, brother!

quote:

Some bought their ammo at the WalMart-when asked what bullet they are shooting they draw a blank? I have been in camp with people that wounded every single animal they shot at, lost most of them! I have been in camp with people that have requested the PH shoot all their animals for them. The list goes on and on and on. So it is my opinion that MANY-not all-not the majority-but very many that go to the field have very little experience actually shooting.

Michael,

I am paraphrazing you, not directly quoting. Read your own post above and then tell me that my paraphrazing is out of line or context.

Count now: 9 for irons, 5 for scopes, 3 stradling.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Timot,

Ian Nyschens, Richard Harland and Sten Cedergren were all interviewed on Buzz's DVD and none puked, at least on camera. Between the three of them I understand they have taken at least a half dozen elephant, maybe more.

So what are your credentials and we can each then form our own judgment as to whose opinions we chose to believe?

+1

I the past I would have said Irons without hesitation.

As my ability to "close focus" is degrading, I am more equivocal; recently I have been experimenting with a long eye relief 30mm 1 to 4X (initially designed as a tactical sight).
I find it has been exceedingly quick and effective is acquiring my targets.

No, I have not taken this setup to Africa yet, but plan to on the next trip.
Thus far it has been very effective on dark targets in close cover and low light.
(the d*#%ed hogs)

An acquaintance of similar age and eyesight recently spent a large amount of our weakening Dollar on a high grade holographic sight, he likewise has been exceptionally pleased.

Both setups offer rapid removal, though neither of us plan to use the Irons at this time.

Guess that puts the "straddlers" to 4.

Two things scare elephant PHs far more than elephant.

One is clients who show up with double rifles.

The other is clients who show up with iron sighted bolt rifles.

Present company excepted, of course.

quote:

Present company excepted, of course. Cool

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Two things scare elephant PHs far more than elephant.

One is clients who show up with double rifles.

The other is clients who show up with iron sighted bolt rifles.

Present company excepted, of course.

Only if the bluing shows perfectly with no wear.

But then it would be the same with a scoped rifle, eh?

Now 9 for irons, 5 for scopes and 4 stradlers.

JPK

I am booked to hunt trophy bull and tuskless in Zim next March. I am planning on shooting iron sights on a 470 K-gun double

If you have trouble seing iron sights, and do not want to use a scope then take a look at the Doctor Optic red dot sight.

Being battery dependant does worry me, but the life of batterise in these sights is measured in the thousands of hours.

And...

Being electronically dependant worries me as well, so I would have 2 of these sights fitted to my big bore, they are not that expensive.

If I was to scope a big bore elephant gun, and I have scoped my 450/400 double rifle, [I did not put the scope on for elephants] I would use a quality scope with a 1.1, to 1.5 power on the low end.

I have 20/10 vision but need reading glasses. I don't see the iron sights clearly enough to make me comfortable.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have 20/10 vision but need reading glasses. I don't see the iron sights clearly enough to make me comfortable.

You ought to consider a ghost ring apperature sight. Very quick and no need to focus on the rear sight at all, just put the bead, or the top of the front blade if that is your choice in lieu of a bead, on where you want the bullet to hit.

JPK

I've only shot two elephants, both with open sights. I'd have been completely screwed on each of them if I'd have been using a scope, and both were in fairly open terrain. The first one, the bull charged from less than 15 yards and we stopped him at less than 10 yards. On the second bull, he was facing me at about 20-25 yards, and had a large mopane tree covering his brain, so I couldn't shoot until he spun away to leave. I shot him as he was quickly turning to leave, and actually shot into the rear portion of his skull just behind where the ear joins the head. He dropped instantly, but I'd have never been able to make that shot with a scope on my rifle.

My current heavy rifle is a winchester model 70 in .416 hoffman, and it has a 1.5x5 leupold scope on it, secured with a claw mount. If I take that rifle elephant hunting, that scope will be in my pocket and won't be put on the gun unless I have a longer shot and time to clamp it into the mounts, which only takes a couple seconds. It takes longer to remove it.

Larry

In your case I would definately look at the Doctor Optic or a scope with 1.1 to 1.5 power in the low range.
Just practice and do not worry about it.

I stopped a charge of a gorilla, starting at 12 yards, I fired at 6 yards, with a 458 Win Mag bolt rifle, with a Leupold 1.5-5 set on 1.5.

I do remember "thinking", I wish I had my 450 No2 Double Rifle

But I had practiced "extensively" with the 458, before THE DAY.

The bottom line is, pick what is best for you, and practice with it until you are 100% confident with it.

LOTS of practice.

When on the hunt, and IF the charge comes, you MUST be 100% confident and ready.

ANY LESS and you, and others, might be killed.

NE 450 #2

I have not tried the Dr Optic, but heard good things about it. I have used and tested the Aimpoints a good bit. I have even used them in the field some. I find that in brush I have a hard time picking things out, but in the open they work well. Dot on-press trigger. Of course they are great for up close fast work, both eyes open, dot on press trigger. Have not used one on any dangerous game yet, but I think they would do fine.

Michael