My first inclination for hunting elephant was to go with irons as the shot would be very close. But, while watching Buzz and Ivan's video, I began practicing using my rifle and the scope was on. I turned it down to 1.5 power. What I found was that the horizontal cross hair made it very easy to line up the zygomatic arch and thus the ear holes.

What are the arguements against a scope on low power?

mostly nostaglic, and mostly from those who are young enough to have their eyes able to focus on irons yet

Iron sights are arguably better in thick brush, where action can be fast and ranges can be inside 10 yards. I think they are faster than a scope under such circumstances.

On my two elephant bulls, I have used irons on one and a QD, low-powered scope on the other. I shot them both in relatively open ground and at close range, so it didn't really matter whether I was using irons or optics.

I will probably stick with the QD scope in future, since it enables very precise shot placement, but can be easily removed if the need arises.

Shot with and without... Do prefer without and up close... Covering both bases the QD mounts is a no brainer...

Mike

You'll have hell to pay if your in a charge situation with a scope, no QD mount is fast enough for that mess if it arises. Unless you are legally blind use irons. Your farthest shot won't be over 50 yds, most shots on ele are 30yds and closer. My last ele shots were 5 and 17 meters. I'm 53 years old and use a 3mm white bead on my DR. NECG actually has a 4mm bead. Another option is a ghost peep actually faster than irons and take a look at the new Burris holigraphic sites, under double rifles look at Rusty's that he mounted on his DR it's under the thread "It's a miracle".

In my opionion the best is a quickly detachable scope. The first shot whit scope is always more accurate. After if the elephant runaway you can leave the scope and use the irons sight.

Nothing wrong with having a QD scope on your 416.

When hunting elephants I would have the scope off the rifle. If you need it there will probably be time to put it on.

If things get dicey, you may not have time to take it off.

I have shot all of my elephants with iron sights.

Four of them have been at 6 yards or less.

SBT, I see you have been getting good advice. I once showed Ian Nyschens my .416 Remington with Quick Detach 1.75 power Leupold scope. He knew that Buzz and I were headed out to Mozambique for elephant. He advised me to take the scope off and throw it away.

Later I discovered the truth of it. I had the scope on the gun in close circumstances where visibility was poor. I had the elephant right in front of me but all I could see was skin and leaves in the scope. I discovered at the wrong moment that there are times when it is impossible to aim at an elephant and know where your gun is pointed. The problem repeated itself in Namibia. I found that I had to keep the scope off at those times of the hunt that I was following elephant.

I learned the hard way that you can't control all the circumstances. In our imaginations we are always hunting in good visibility with time for a composed shot. But reality deals us the unexpected. You will find that you have to hunt where the elephant is. You need all the freedom and flexibility you can get, which means freedom to shoot from any angle in dense foliage, unrestricted by a scope.

You know, I discovered that I am deadly accurate without a scope. That .416 is easy to shoot with the iron sights, so I learned that it can be shot with absolute reliability out to 100 yards. Dirklawyer has said it best, you'll have hell to pay with a scope in urgent circumstances. If the worst circumstances can happen, it will.

As 450NE No2 put it, if you want a scope, you'll have time to put it on; if you need to ditch it, you won't have time to get it off.

Even a 1x scope limits visibility and perspective and creates blind spots. Try it. For a righty the worst blind spot is to the front and to the right of the hunter. It is tall too and the blind spot grows as range increases.

Good chance the eles will be in the thick stuff, you will want all of the perspective and visibility you can get, even if none gives you a go. If you end up close, even that 1x can leave you looking at leaves and grey skin without perspective.

For your 416, you might want to look at the Talley QD's with the Talley aperature for the rear base. Best of both worlds, a QD scope when you want it and an aperature for all day every day when tracking eles.

For a double or for your 416 you might want to look at NECG/Kreighoff type skeletonized rear express blade. I haven't made the switch, but probably will since a time or two I have found that the express blade obscures more of the ele's head (or the buff) than I would like.

Also, while you may make your approach on a totally unaware elephant and have time to make your shot, there is a good or better chance, in the thick stuff and close especially, and almost always if you seek a frontal brain shot, that the elephant will move or turn its head toward you. You will have but an instant to finish mounting your rifle and get your shot off. No time for a scope here, imo, perfect for an apperature though.

JPK

Bill
I had a chance to visit with Ian a few weeks before he died.

I found him to be a Gentlemen of the highest order. I really enjoyed talking to him.

He and I both used the 450 No2 for elephant, and he had many stories of his exploits.

I would have loved to have hunted with him.

SBT

This really depends on the experience of the individual. I am a scope guy and have always used it for everything, even in some very close and fast situations. This is where I am experienced, and most comfortable. Some do not shoot as much with the scope. I use the Leupold 1.5X5 VX3. Lot's of eye relief and lot's of field of view. For me it allows me to see thru the thick brush for that all important first shot, which I cannot see with irons! But I shoot a lot, practice a lot.

A few years ago I conducted a test with 5 different guys with various experience, both with big bore and different sight systems. I used 3 different rifles set up with ghost ring and post--Aimpoint-and 1.5X5 Leupold. The test was conducted at 10 yds, rifle at port arms, and the only objective was to place one shot within a 5 inch diamond quickly as possible from standing position. For the most experienced there was hardly any difference in the time with all 3 systems, and accuracy was always best with the scoped rifle. For the less experienced shooters the times were better with the aimpoint, followed by ghost ring. Misses outside that 5 inch diamond were not counted. One thing that hurt the less experienced shooters was the awareness that the scope or aimpoint sit on average 1.5 inches above the bore, so they hit consistently low at short ranges.

I see it as very much up to the individual and what the individuals experience is with. If you normally shoot a scope, get on target fast, and can handle your firearm with it,then you cannot go wrong with a low power scope for this sort of work!

Michael

If you can hit a pie plate every time from 5 yards to 60 yards with open sights than that is the sight of choice. If you cannot achieve the above...there is no shame in using a scope. Be sure you have express sights. In addition, I believe you will be hunting with Nixon....he has new .375 scope remington rifles. So if you need a far shot or want to use a scope...just us his.

dale

I forgot...after you hit a pie plate every time from 5-60 yards...move down to a clay target.

Whatever you do, just don't use a synthetic stocked gun ... ugh.

I had a 2 3/4X Burris IER scope on my .500 A2, and I liked it a great deal for target shooting; it's very easy to place shots precisely and it's very gratifying to punch out the X-ring on targets.

Lately, I've been experimenting with a 1X (no magnification) Pentax Lightseeker that was designed for shotgun/muzzleloader usage. It has the usual crosshairs, but the center is surrounded by a circle. There is much less eye adjustment with the 1x compared to the 2 3/4x and it feels much faster. I'm still playing around with it, and haven't reached a final conclusion regarding the scope, but it's an interesting option. I'll check for blind spots again, but I haven't noticed any so far.

My eyes are pretty bad, so irons are really a last resort.

Wendell

Who in their right mind would use synthetic for Africa? Oh, that is the same people who use plastic handguns and plastic holsters for handguns. Wood--Wood--Wood! Something with a little class and character!

Michael

I have detachable on several guns and feel this is a good option. Having said this, hunting with Iron sights will force you to get close. With a scoped rifle the hunter may be tempted to play it safe and take a little longer shot. If you want to get the full experience of a DG hunt, hunt the thick stuff with iron sights….you will not regret it!

While I have absolutely ZERO Elephant hunting experience. I have found that shooting a low power scope 2x or less with both eyes open I am faster with a scope and more accurate on close targets too.

Whether one oe the other is preferable is all dependent upon the user. Try them both at very close ranges (5 t0 10 yards) and at medium ranges 15 to 50 yards on targets and see which works best for you. It will vary depending upon the shooters experience level, eye sight and gun fit.

465H&H

Maybe you could get the Swarovski z6 1-6x24. The low power of 1 lets you make very close shots. Just an idea.

I use a low-powered scopes in Talley QD rings... but to each his own. In one of my hunting experiences, like mrlexma it didn't matter, scope or open sights would have worked. The cow was in the open. The other two were both different. In a charge situation from sixteen yards I used a scope and while irons would have been better, the scope didn't fail me set at its lowest power. In thick jess, while trying to sort out a bull we bumped a time or two before, the scope helped me pick out the least obstructed shot at his shoulder and I got my bull on the last day...

Every opportunity is different so there is no right or wrong choice, low-powered scopes in QD rings or open sights both work, so go with what you know.

I think JPK got it right.

But just to add reinforcement, a gost ring is a great comprimize. You need only put the front bead on the target. Not a problem even for older eyes.

Scoped rifles are not for ele hunting IMHO. The scope is a disadvantage because;
1) Small field of view could make it difficult to identify the correct aiming point because of the large size of the ele when close.
2) The scope encourages tunnel vision. Not good when you are in close espically with multiple ele. It's important to be aware of the situation as you may need to move or shoot in a hurry.

Shooting sticks are a bad idea also, IMHO as they also limit your ability to move in a hurry.

However, if your hunting open ground and shooting from a distance a scope would be a great advantage. But who wants to do that??

Just my two cents...

Brett

I find myself in agreement with Wendell Reich, it would just be TOOOOOOO! tacky to hunt with a synthetic stock. It's why rugger calls their walnut and blued steel models "African".

Rich
Buff Killer

Never even hunted ele, but ditto on JTEX's comment --be comfortable, in either configuration, shooting with both eyes open. Does wonders for your peripheral vision and situational awareness.

There is only one choice. Guess what that is.

SBT,I have never hunted ele,but hope to do so some time.A scope makes things much easier.If you are looking at this from a productive or practical view,go with the scope.If you feel a scope is too easy and not fun,go with the sights.

Irons.

For those responders that I know have hunted elephants, plus those who have claimed to but for which I have no confirmation, the count is 8 for open sights, 3 for scopes and two who stradle the choice.

JPK

If my eye sight didn't allow for the use of open sights, I wouldn't hesitate using a suitable scope. But until then I'm happy to use open sights.

This is not a contest where points are counted-who is right-who is wrong-what have you.

It is simply the choice of the individual based on experience, and what they have worked with.

I do suggest that if one goes with a scope--1.5X5 Leupold--nothing else has the field of view and eye relief to compare.

Fortunately I can use any system-I just prefer the scope.

There is no Right or Wrong--just the individual!

Michael

Michael458,

No it isn't a contest, but like any other issue, there will be differing opinions even amongst those who have experience. Those opinions carry some wieght.

After OzHunter's post the count now stands at 8 for opens, 3 for scopes and 3 who stradle the issue.

Now, if you want to weight those opinions with each experienced elephant hunter's opinion weighted by the number of elephants each has killed, I suspect the weighting will favor irons more.

JPK

Well, I have shot a few elephants, all with scopes.

And I will still it again, with a scope.

JPK

Thank you for keeping count on such relevant issues as this.

Again I contend it is the experience of the individual. If you don't have experience using the scope, or shooting, then you should keep it as simple as possible.

Maybe even go to the range and try some different sight systems to see what you can work with best.

Michael

Let's add to the opinion poll PH's (from my personal questions to at least 14 different PH's over the years) all of them without exception advise clients that irons or peep are what they would prefer a client to use on ele's. These same PH's do state that if your eye sight is too bad for irons or peep by all means a scope is OK in the 1-1.5x5-6 power range. Thus out of these 14 Ph's from Zim, Tanzania, Zambia, South Africa, Namibia and Mozambique open sites are their FIRST choice for the client vs. elephant.

I'm good for 100yds with my 458 Lott shooting a 500gr Solid. I have a 1.5X6 Burris scope on it.I usually keep it on 2 power.

I guess it's like learning to ride a bike and becoming good enough to remove the training wheels.You may choose to leave them on for whatever reason.

8 for irons, 4 for scopes, 3 stradling the choice.

I will add that I also suspect that where and how one hunts elephants has a lot to do with one's preference.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Again I contend it is the experience of the individual. If you don't have experience using the scope, or shooting, then you should keep it as simple as possible.
Michael

Michael,

Thanks for the unwarranted the ad hominem attack on those who don't prefer scopes, with the bold implication you've included that only those with shooting experience should choose a scope. I think you know that in reality, it takes more effort and more skill to become proficient with express sights, or even with a proper ghost ring apperature, than a with scope.

And despite your whining protestations, choice of sights is a more relevant topic than even cartridge choice (assuming a legal choice), a much debated favorite topic here.

I'll add that while time at the range is rarely wasted, unless your range has close range moving, or at least turning, targets in brush or some other cover, you won't learn much regarding the utility of the three or four sight choices.

JPK

If one looks at the myriad of "iron" sights available at http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com they will probably find something that even tired old eyes will see. Here is an example:



Make sure you go to the "toy chest" too and double click on "Recknagel". If you can't see those sights, I'd wonder if you'll see the elephant!

I've killed a few elephants and have never even considered using a scope. It's just that the more mechanical stuff, the more likely for failure, I reckon. I do, however, have scopes on some "elephant capable" rifles such as my .404's, the reason being that I use them for plains game and buffalo, too.

I've found that there is a big difference in picking a spot on a buffalo at 50 yards, through shadows and brush and thumping an elephant in the head (or heart) at 15 steps (which, not incidentally, is the longest shot I've made on Ndovu). So, I'll keep the scope on for the buffalo and take it off for the elephants.

Alright, truth be told I am bias, I HATE SCOPES ON BIG BORES. To me it's a cluster *uck, tits on a boar, oxymoron. Of course over the last 35 years I've been shooting big bores I've been bit by a scope or two when I've put a scope on to work up loads. I don't even like the scope on my favorite 30-06 and hate to carry it in the bush. Yea, I know, I'm an old dog that doesn't like to learn new tricks either.

Put me down for iron sights when the plan is to hunt bull elephant in the brush, up close, the way it should be done. If it was good enough for Pondoro, Sutherland, Bell, Nychens, . . . and Bill Stewart, it is good enough for me.