I've watched the scene a few times and I believe the 2nd shot came from another person. (a grassy knoll maybe) I watched in slow motion and the first shot you can clearly see recoil and muzzle blast from the PH's double. I don't think I see a second shot and the PH never brings his gun down until the ele turns and runs, which I would think he would do if he shot both barrels.

Anybody else agree?

I guess I need to do a frame-by-frame analysis of the new Zapruder film this evening. I seem to recall that one of the scouts/trackers had a bolt action rifle in at least one of the clips. Maybe that is what the hunter was getting the hell out of the way of . . . the scout behind him getting ready to shoot.

On my very first elephant, a tuskless cow, we made an approach through an open field. As we began the final approach, Buzz called the game scout over and talked to him in a very direct way in Shona. I asked him what he said, and he said, "I told him that I did not want to hear the bolt on his AK being cocked!"

If my theory of a second shooter is true then I have another. I believe the PH only meant to fire a warning shot. If he was shooting to kill he would have for sure fired a second. Just the way he continued to track the elephant with his gun up makes me believe he still had a live round in his double.

I too saw a tracker or game scout with a gun, a bolt action I believe, earlier in the show and it was probably him that hit the elephant. Or, we can give the hunter credit. Maybe once he cleared the view for the camera man he turned and shot!!

I agree that at normal speed you hear two shots and I thought the PH shot twice, but in slo-mo you cannot see both of them. I am sure someone knows the whole story.

Who if anyone would pay for that elephant? It must have to be accounted for in some way.

quote:

Originally posted by thunder stick:
Who if anyone would pay for that elephant? It must have to be accounted for in some way.

If it is proven to be a self defense shooting, then nobody pays,and the ele doesn't count on the PH's quota, but the ele belongs to the game department!

quote:

Originally posted by wyattd:
If my theory of a second shooter is true then I have another. I believe the PH only meant to fire a warning shot. If he was shooting to kill he would have for sure fired a second. Just the way he continued to track the elephant with his gun up makes me believe he still had a live round in his double.

I too saw a tracker or game scout with a gun, a bolt action I believe, earlier in the show and it was probably him that hit the elephant. Or, we can give the hunter credit. Maybe once he cleared the view for the camera man he turned and shot!!

I watched the show several times -- this would be as close a guess as I could come up with as to the second shot---- appears the second shot is the one that did the deed.
G

I have alwasy wondered if I could stand and take the charge. I am hunting DG in August '09. I mentioned it to my PH. His reply was, " You can't out run them. You might as well stand and shoot!"

It is one thing to try to sneak away (hurriedly) from a curious elephant to avoid shooting but in a determined charge you have the choice to run or shoot. As your PH says you sure as hell can't outrun an elephant. And if you stand your ground there is no time to get scared. Just start shooting and hope for the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
It is one thing to try to sneak away (hurriedly) from a curious elephant to avoid shooting but in a determined charge you have the choice to run or shoot. As your PH says you sure as hell can't outrun an elephant. And if you stand your ground there is no time to get scared. Just start shooting and hope for the best.

Words to "LIVE" by!

In the elephant charge,Mike Payne is the P.H.,and if you watch the video in slow motion you will see that he only fired one shot.He still had one left.Another shot was fired,but not by Mike.Possibly the game scout.Surely not the client,unless he can shoot backwards.

Okay, saw the show, a good one indeed. Fight or flight - you won't know for sure until you are confronted with the situation. This gentleman chose the latter, and it is hard not to chuckle watching him sprint off. Well-done to the PH, although it proves that even 2 shots with a "big gun" into the head are not guaranteed to knock down an ele (turn the charge it did).

Especially with a larger group, a retreat can be a bit chaotic. It might only be a few feet backwards, which in thick bush can be a treat as one can easily fall on ones ass!

But turning back to full-out run is terrifying to me...much prefer to face the potential threat. The key is to be a few feet to the side and just back a little from the PH if possible to be able to follow their lead. By rights it should be their call as the Pro as to if/when to fire, and I balance the need for self-preservation against the possibility of a needless shooting (and paperwork/hassle). It is not easy holding back once the adrenalin kicks in. Of course clients/PH's don't get to practice this little dance too often, and even with the same PH situations are different. Heck, even PH's bolt now and then!

All of this of course is part of what makes elephant hunting so addictive!

After all the hoopla I watched the show last night, many times, and also tried to do a slow motion frame by frame analysis. Several things struck me. Yes the hunter turns and runs, but why? Trying to clear out of the way of the elephant or out of the way of another shooter? Second, the PH who is very experienced, doesn't take his gun off his shoulder with the elephant standing in front of him and two shoots clearly fired by someone. It was very odd that he wouldn't be reloading his double as quickly as possible, unless he was planning to chuck his double at the cow as he had done with the ash bag. I doubt that was the case. Then I went back again and again because I thought I heard a very strange sound....a bolt being cycled. It is clearly there and since both the PH and the hunter had doubles, it must have been the game scout or tracker that was carrying the scoped bolt action (which I thought was the hunters plains game gun). Listen carefully and you can clearly hear it and it explains why the PH looked like he was getting ready to fire another shot at the cow if she had continued on.

The "You can not outrun them so you might as well stand there and keep shooting" was also what Gee. Hoffman told me before I went to TZ with him. Geo. had other advice about getting snake bit and that was to remain calm, get under a shade tree and bend over and kiss my rear goodbye!
On that same safari Frank Miller and old time PH told of the time he and his wife Elsie were out hunting and charged by a bull elephant. Frank told Elsie to run but she quickly informed him that she ran from no man and decked the bull. Frank said that "He was not afraid of the elephant or for Elsie but he did not want to have to put an 80 pound elephant on his license." You can tell by that statement that charge was many, many years ago.
He also told the story that night about how one morning while going to the outhouse he was bitten on the end of his privates. He jumped up and was holding the snake with one hand and his private with the other and yelling. Elsie came out to see the ruckus and discovered the problem. She could drive but had be taught how by her brothers on the family tractor and had never driven the car she and Frank owned. It was 60+ K into Arusha with Frank holding on and when there the doc had to extract one fang. I thought Geo. Hoffman and I both would die from not being able to get our breath laughing so hard while Frank told the story on himself.

I thought for sure the standby story was coming about the tourniquet, the knife cut, and ...., well, you know.

How's the old saying go?

"Why run? You'll just die tired."

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought for sure the standby story was coming about the tourniquet, the knife cut, and ...., well, you know.

"What'd the doctor say?"

"He said you're going to die."

Hi All. I am the PH in question on this episode.Thought I would try and answer some of the questions. We backed off from the elephant cow for quite a distance but she had picked up our scent and left the herd and kept following. Just before we reached the clients wife and other scouts etc (who we had left a distance from the herd while we made the approach) I took a stand as I couldn't have her charging into the group.I had seen earlier that the cow in question had youngsters and I didn't want to have to shoot her. I tried shouting to chase her and when she refused to back off I threw the ash bag in the hope that she would turn. Unfortunately she charged. I fired one shot which I put high in the hope that it would turn her and because it wasn't a killing shot she would survive it and would be able to return to her youngsters. Had she not turned I would have used the second shot to brain her. The scout put in the second shot which was not a killing shot but did mean I had to track her and finish her off. There is no footage of this unfortunately as she went into the middle of the herd and I wanted as few people as possible involved as the herd was distressed. We went back over the next 2 days and checked on the herd and her youngsters had been adopted into the herd and were fine.Nat Parks watched the footage and were happy that it was in self defense. Hope this helps clear up a few things, Mike

Mike,

Welcome to AR, though it can be stressful at times!

Thanks for your help with your detailed explanation as things can get off track here easily.

Keep safe.

Thanks very much for the explanation. Amazing how much more sense things make when you have the facts!

Mike,

Welcome to AR! Thanks for coming on here and giving us the details.

So the customer turned tail and ran off because he was scared shitless, or he was just getting out of the way of the game scout who had already shouldered his rifle?

Mike Payne,
In another episode of TAA, I saw you get the left sleeve of your shirt flapped by the muzzle blast of a buffalo hunter shooting at a charging buff from behind your back. IIRC, you both shot on that one and you were knocked over by the buff as it veered away.

It is good that your latest client did not blow your hat off from behind your back with his muzzle blast, eh?

BTW, how is the hearing in your left ear, EH?

(Being a right-handed shooter, I only have 30 dB loss in my left ear, mostly high frequency in the range of my wife's voice ... so far.)

Live long and prosper ... and watch your back!!!

quote:

(Being a right-handed shooter, I only have 30 dB loss in my left ear, mostly high frequency in the range of my wife's voice ... so far.)

The properly tuned, solid state hearing aid can help that...

Well if his gun jammed, and he is the survivor type, running is certainly an option, I am not sure I wouldn't get out of Dodge if a Buffalo was coming my way and all I had was a broke rifle that wouldn't work..Technically speaking I doubt if I could be much help unless I could get behind the buffalo and stick that damn funky rifle up the bulls keyster...AND

If I were the PH or the one with a loaded gun, I would just as soon you got the hell out of my way and let me handle the situation as opposed to standing there telling me your gun was broke.

Will said it: I think ya'll live on a different planet!

I think Tracks Across Africa is the best African hunting show on the Outdoor Channel and I look forward to each weeks episode.

I have noticed other editing "errors" in some of their shows.

In one the hunter, a Ruger or other gun company exec, I believe, made a big deal at the start of the show about the special stock that he had built for the gun he was using on that hunt. Then at the end of the show when he shot his crock or hippo or whatever, he didn't use the gun that he made the big deal about in the beginning of the show.

In one or two other shows Craig starts a stalk on an animal (Kudu or something else) with a scoped rifle without iron sights, then it shows him shooting that animal with a rifle with iron front sights.

Picky, picky, picky

Maybe TAA should consider running some text at the end of the screen, stating what the PH just stated above? Would have settled all this mess alot soon.
Robert