There was a thread last week about a Tracks Across Africa episode involving a problem with a rifle that did not cock. Some one raised the issue of why they did not edit that part of the footage out. I was watching this week's episode and it was another elephant hunt with a different hunter. There is a segment in the episode where they come up on a cow in thick brush. The cow senses that they are there and they try to shout down the cow. Then they throw a stick at the cow () and the cow comes in a charge. The next thing you see is the PH standing firm and the hunter bolting in retreat. The PH fires twice and that turns the charge and the cow runs off and dies.

I know the clip makes for some great footage, but gee if I was the hunter I am not sure that I would want everyone watching Tracks Across Africa to see me running for the rear and abandoning the PH. Maybe next time I am having a hunt filmed I will tell them that I reserve editorial rights on the footage!

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Originally posted by MJines:
Maybe next time I am having a hunt filmed I will tell them that I reserve editorial rights on the footage!

Only if you plan on turning tail and run away.

Well when one thinks about it---- it gives a whole new meaning to "Tracks" Across Africa!!!

Does go along with the thread on "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber" doesn't it.

I saw the episode yesterday and thought the same thing. I had it recorded, so I couldn't help myself from watching it over and over. I could just hear the PHs, in their Zim accent, talking later and the words "ran like 'ell" coming up.
What made it extra funny was the guys "star" attitude towards the camera before, and even after. I should not judge, as I've never stood down an ele charge, but as the man says "That's funny; I don't care who y'are."

I watched it this morning on my DVR and was wondering why the PH threw the stick or rock or whatever it was.

Man I gotta see that one the guy ran? I thaught thats what you hunted Dangerus game for to see if you have a pair to stand .To test your self . I guess this guy has none !!!!
I don't know if I could live with myself if I did that.

I was a good clip and I am glad the show did not edit the scene out. TAA and the new Hornady show are great. They give a good look at african hunting....including the mistakes that happen.

Bolted would be the better term. Kudos to the cameraman, he stood right in there. Kind of surprised the hunter did not knock the cameraman over.

I guess it depends on whether they were hunting cow ele or not???

If they weren't, the correct course of action would be to avoid having to shoot the ele....I suspect the only reason the PH fired was because he didn't think running was feasible...(or he thought the hunter was quicker than him! )

If you read any of the old hunting books you will find many of the great PH's spent time running away from members of the Big Five simply to avoid shooting something that wasn't planned.

Since I have never faced down a pissed off elephant, not sure how I would have reacted. I hope I would have stood my ground as my double delivered its 500 grain package for the perfect frontal brain shot.

For those here that have stood their ground and had the beast fall at there feet, what a story you have.

Until you have been there, well, whatever

From what you have relayed it sounded like the PH was trying to get the cow to charge. Is that true?

If so, that is very unprofessional of the supposedly professional hunter.

If the guys (like some I won't mention) want charges for the sake of video footage, let it be at their own expense, not that of the clients.

It is one thing if the client is seeking that kind of stuff out, but another if it is PH induced.

I was watching an AR member's video the other night, and it appeared that the cow was well on her way to decamping the scene when the PH was still yelling at her. I can't help but wonder if that was the same sort of hopeful charge situation, which the cow wound up doing.

Not sure Bill what was going on. The cow is staring at them, the PH throws something that honestly looks like an ash bag, not sure it is stick or rock. As soon as he throws, the cow comes. The hunter was hunting a trophy bull, not a cow. The only thing I can figure is they were either trying to get the cow to charge (which seems odd since the hunter bolts) or trying to get the cow to move off. I am going to watch it again to see if I can pick up anything else.

I watched the clip again. After they find the dead cow they do a little commentary. The PH says that we tried to give it some room, even threw something at it to try and clear her out but she came . . .

What do you suppose the PH's back-up plan was after firing two warning shots from his double at close range?

Edit: Guess I should have watched the whole thing as those were not warning shots.

I guess they did not want to shout her down and spook other eles off, who knows.

It does prove Will's point that lots of brain shots get missed.

Admittedly, even if one was there it would be difficult to know what the cow would do under any circumstances. Maybe throwing something at her just seemed like the thing to do at the time. Or maybe just pissed her off! Who knows?

When I have been in similar circumstances, there was yelling going on but no chucking sticks. Of course, no one wanted to bend over and grab anything at those particular moments!

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Originally posted by Will:
Admittedly, even if one was there it would be difficult to know what the cow would do under any circumstances. Maybe throwing something at her just seemed like the thing to do at the time. Or maybe just pissed her off! Who knows?

When I have been in similar circumstances, there was yelling going on but no chucking sticks. Of course, no one wanted to bend over and grab anything at those particular moments!

Clearly looks like a white bag, no doubt something he already had in his hands.

I really think that it had to be thrown to try and run the cow off. The hunter is clearly not ready to shoot, is standing behind the PH, gun at order arms. If they were trying to incite a charge, the hunter would have been at least aside the PH and would have had the gun ready for action. Also would have been less likely to head for the hills when the charge started.

I also have the episode recorded and watched it several times. I really don't think the PH was trying to provoke a charge. The cow was obviously curious and spent several seconds doing whatever elephants do before they decide to charge. It was early in the season and the bush was very thick. I think the PH did everything he could do, including throw something at her, to chase her off and avoid a charge. When she came, he stood his ground and shot her.

My other observation was that later in the episode the PH made a helluva shot to anchor the bull they were hunting when the client missed the brain and the elephant turned to run.

As I understand the footage, the group was tracking a group of elephant and was trying to locate a trophy bull in the herd. The female elephant came in from the side and crossed paths with the hunters. The PH was trying to leave the area to prevent any charge when the cow caught their wind and decided to come after them. I think the group was trying to get the hell out of dodge when the event happened. The PH made a comment that he knew she was going to charge when he saw her stop next to the tree and looked for the human scent left behind from the hunters. He said something to the effect of “most elephant will leave the area once they smell a human…instead she came looking for troubleâ€. I think they did all they could to avoid the charge.

I also agree the PH made a great brain shot on the bull that the client wounded….I was never able to see where the clients first shot landed but could clearly see the PH drop the bull in its tracks as it attempted to run away. I would like to know how many shots the Client had fired with his double prior to the hunt. Referring to my comments about last week’s episode, it looks to me like he was not comfortable with his double. To me it appeared when he fired the first finishing shot at the fallen bull, then moved a bit and attempted to fire the second barrel, the client pulled the front trigger a second time before realizing that he had two triggers on his weapon. He also fumbles around a lot attempting to reload his weapon. If I had to guess, this fellow had not shot his Kreighoff much proceeding his hunt….but of course this is only my assumption.

Must be great to have the egos of some Monday morning quarterbacks on this thread!
The fact is none of you were there, at least MJines original comment was made tongue in cheek

Gentlemen, I have not seen this clip in that show, so on that I cannot comment as to if this was an unjustifiable bug out by the client or not! What I can say is, when a problem animal gets to cheeky,(one that is not being hunted) and nothing discourages it, with the result being a charge! The PH who doesn't shoot it, is simply not doing his job. On top of all that it is better if the client doesn't get involved in the shooting of that animal, usless he has to, to avoid someone being hurt or killed. This makes things a lot better with the PH's dealing with the government man! It is far better and more cerdible if the animal is killed by the PH alone, to protect the client!

From what I'm hearing here is, the PH was simply trying to avoid haveing to shoot this cow, and may have told the client not to shoot if he had any other choice, and leave it to the PH!

There is another happening on film that is without a doubt a BUG-OUT by the client, and one that almost got the PH killed! If it had not been for another PH along, Johan Calitz would have surely been killed, or at the very least, seriously enjured! Nothing was said by the two PHs but if you watch you can see the displeasure with this client in their facial expressions! All the while the client is makeing excuses why he ran on film! That film is QUATALI, and black hatted, sleevless client, almost knocked the camara man down getting the hell out of Dodge! In this case the client wounded the buffalo, and it went down in some thick Tsaro bush, and the client went into the bush with the two PHs till the buffalo started getting up, the client was right there. Once he found out the buff was still alive he was gone with the wind!

Maybe these two happenings were exactly the same, but from what I'm hearing here, they are two different things intirely, IMO!

Actually, I rather enjoy seeing a show where things don't quite go as planned. Let's face it, most hunting trips aren't quite happening as planned...something goes wrong somewhere.

I was watching Nugent the other day hunting Bear in Alaska with his brother. Sure enough, a big bear comes in, the brother lines up and then...<CLICK!>. Bear bolts.

Yep, you guessed it. The Marlin 45-70's safety was on.

And you know what? I've done it too.

Sometimes it's nice to see how human we really are.

quote:

Originally posted by 2thdoc:
Must be great to have the egos of some Monday morning quarterbacks on this thread!
The fact is none of you were there, at least MJines original comment was made tongue in cheek

Must be great to have enough ego to make a descision to call others Monday morening quarterbacks, while haveing no more information than the rest of the folks here.

If the people who show these films don't want any critiscism, they should edit them so there is nothing to take issue with! However, as to your indictment, of people here haveing egos, and being Monday morning quarterbacks, I would say that amoung the posters on AR's African hunting forum, there is enough on the job experience, to make thier observations, backed by a large amount of credibility!

Good thing they weren't hunting CATS, their spots make for good camouflage, but you can't change the spots on CATS...jorge

Regarding the PH, he did a wonderful job. While I wonder about throwing the ash bag at the elephant, I was not there so it is unfair to comment on whether that was warranted or not. The PH stood his ground on the cow, and as others have noted, put in a great second shot on the bull -- quartering away brain shot on the run.

My comments were more directed at the client bug out and the fact that if it were me paying for the video and I had bugged out I would have wanted that edited out before it showed up on television. I agree with Roscoe, his handling of the gun suggests that he might not have been that familiar with it.

Also, I have noticed that a lot of Krieghoffs have been showing up in Tracks Across Africa episodes, usually in the hands of the PHs.

The only question I had was how quickly the PH fired the second shot on the charge at a rapidly moving head. Had he waited a milisecond, the cow stopped and presented an excellent chance for a brain shot at a stationary head but alas he had no "bullets" left. Of course I can't see what he saw so I am not second guess him just wondering. Also I think I would have been reloading rather than standing there yelling at the cow.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The only question I had was how quickly the PH fired the second shot on the charge at a rapidly moving head. Had he waited a milisecond, the cow stopped and presented an excellent chance for a brain shot at a stationary head but alas he had no "bullets" left. Of course I can't see what he saw so I am not second guess him just wondering. Also I think I would have been reloading rather than standing there yelling at the cow.

465H&H

Agree...I think the pucker factor had him...though I don't blame him one bit. Had that cow kept comming then I doubt he would have had time to reload anyway....That is where the client should have backed him up IMO.
Isn't this the same PH that got tossed by a buffalo in a show last year? He must get the clients that head guys don't want

I haven't seen the clip, but based on the descriptions on this thread, the elephant was the PH's problem, not the client's, and it may have been the PH's standing instruction for the client to clear out in case of a charge.

In many cases, if the client shoots a beastie, he must pay for it AND count it against his quota/license.

When I hunted in DG areas, I informed the PH that if I started something, I wanted the chance to finish it (in other words, no shooting by the PH unless ABSOLUTELY necessary). However, if he started something, it was his job to finish it. 'Unprovoked' charges would have fallen into the latter category.

George

I have not seen the show... But I have read that elephant do not like things being thrown at them, that it is unnatural and they tend to flee. This past August, while walking a valley looking for kudu/sable, we trailed two ele bulls which we eventually caught up to. One eventually sensed something and turned to check it out. It was getting dark, and after about 5 minutes, Buzz had Crighton chuck a rock at him. Sure enough, he turned and left w/some haste. My thought at the time was that somewhere buried deep is the memory of spears being hurled at them. Perhaps this is what the PH was looking to accomplish.

Bill,

I had a similar experience while hunting elephant with Brent Hein at Deka. An old cow approached us and seemed determined - head down, ears flat to her head, walking steadily toward us. Brent threw a stick, hitting her square in the forehead, which did the trick and she turned and ran off. I was sure we would have to shoot her and was glad we didn't.

MJines,
I just saw the episode that you wrote of. Harm Gross (?) was the hunter? He bolted on the charge as if he could out run the cow. The PH shot the cow.

On the bull, it appeared the hunter fired and missed the brain with a quick follow up by the PH that brained the elephant. The hunter then fired two insurance shots.

The client looked a bit "green" at hunting of this type - his dress, his body language while walking, his position in line while stalking... There is an unidentified female in the troop also.

I am not really sure I would have liked to been in that mix..

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My other observation was that later in the episode the PH made a helluva shot to anchor the bull they were hunting when the client missed the brain and the elephant turned to run.

Yeah, the female and the client were wearing identical hats, so I assume she was an observer.

The client's body language showed me that he wasn't really comfortable with the entire situation.

I don't understand people who go hunt DG and are not completely comfortable with their rifles. Under certain circumstances, the PH may need the client as much as the client needs the PH. I don't ever want to be responsible for a PH or staff member getting injured or killed because of my lack of proficiency.

I have not seen the video myself, but throwing something to make a crash, impact and distract the animal is probably better than just shouting alone I would have thought, especially if it is very close to you and has become aware of your presence, but I would probably leave the throwing until the animal starts closing the gap. I am sure under the circumstances the PH did the right thing, although I think most people are told never to run when encountering DG up close, but there is a time and place for everything. Running can be a good or bad thing, bad in that the animal feels it has the upper-hand and may very well catch up with you and then it may be content and give up the chase....or not! Sounds like one of those situations where you have to make quick decisions, whether they end up being good or bad!

I don't believe that turning your back to run from any kind of DG would be a smart thing to do. You are placing yourself into a very vulnerable position of being unprepared for whatever chain of events occurs next. If the animal decides to come for you, it will close the gap very quickly and you will find yourself in a very bad predicament. I thinks its better to face the animal down and do whatever is necessary at the time.

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do whatever is necessary at the time.

No kidding?

Hey, if the client takes off I figure by the time the cow rearranges the PH he'll probably be in safe territory.

Hey, you can always find another PH. There's one behind every tree in Zim. Same goes for videographers.

Hi Guys:

I saw Tracks Accross Africa tonight, in my area it is on every Sunday night at 5:30 PM, I never miss it. It so happens I was taping it because I wasn't sure the football game was going to be over.

My thought was, yepper the hunter bolted when the Ele charged, and yes the PH stood his ground and fired two quick shots from his double. The Ele did not go down, but stopped her charge and took off. If that Ele kept on coming that PH was DEAD. He would never have time to reload and shoot again. He was damn LUCKY period. I did not see another PH in that group backing him up.

And you are correct, on the second Ele the client misssed the brain shot with his first shot, and the PH brained the Bull as he turned with his shot a second later. It really was exciting footage of an Ele hunt.

Clients gun looked like a 470 or 450 Kreighoff.

Regards... Jim P.

The Steelers -- Texans game was over long before 5:30. It was over towards the the end of the first quarter.

Hi Mike:

I agree about the Texans and Steelers, but I was watching the Dallas and Browns, was hoping Dallas was going to get their ass kicked, but no such luck. With all these Texans on here you have to be carefull..

My Eagles kicked the Vickings ass. Hope they can hold there own next week against Dallas.

Hey I would have to go with your opinion on Ele's ....any man that shoots 5 Ele's on one hunt is my HERO...

Regards... Jim P.