Spoke to a guy in Arusha yesterday who came from Kigosi.

Apparently the trophies from the the 2008 season is still sitting in the skinning sheds ,where it spent the raining season,nice...

Reports are that the trophy fees to the government "disappeared"...

Anybody got some more info?

Steiner,

Welcome to the Forums.

Who Is hunting that area?

quote:

Steiner,

Welcome to the Forums.

Who Is hunting that area?

This area belongs to Licky Abdallah Malagarasi Hunting Safaris.
Its absolutly common that the Trophys leave 1 or 2 years late with this Company.The Trophy treatment is terrible...

Seloushunter

Wow I hope that is not true. Very bad news for those hunters

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:

quote:

Steiner,

Welcome to the Forums.

Who Is hunting that area?

This area belongs to Licky Abdallah Malagarasi Hunting Safaris.
Its absolutly common that the Trophys leave 1 or 2 years late with this Company.The Trophy treatment is terrible...

Seloushunter

That is correct.

Malagarasi safaris do some of their own hunts there but the bulk of the hunts are subleased to other outfitters and booking agents.Preliminary research shows about 9 other companies hunted there during the 2008 season.

The question is if some of the companies didn't pay the trophy fees to the government or if they paid Licky and he held it back from the government or a combination of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:

quote:

Originally posted by mboga biga bwana:

quote:

Steiner,

Welcome to the Forums.

Who Is hunting that area?

This area belongs to Licky Abdallah Malagarasi Hunting Safaris.
Its absolutly common that the Trophys leave 1 or 2 years late with this Company.The Trophy treatment is terrible...

Seloushunter

That is correct.

Malagarasi safaris do some of their own hunts there but the bulk of the hunts are subleased to other outfitters and booking agents.Preliminary research shows about 9 other companies hunted there during the 2008 season.

The question is if some of the companies didn't pay the trophy fees to the government or if they paid Licky and he held it back from the government or a combination of the above.

Steiner,
"Preliminary research shows about 9 other companies hunted there during the 2008 season".
It would be interesting to know the names and Directors of these 9 companies.

Steiner

You started a thread, then baled out.

Here's how I look at it without smearing anyone in particular:

From what you say, 9 other companies hunted in Kigosi during the 2008 season but have
so far failed to furnish the names of these companies.

Saeed had asked who was hunting the area, not who held the concession rights.

In my modest opinion the "companies" leasing the area from Malagarasi Hunting Safaris should be held directly
responsible for having allowed trophies to stagnate in camp; post season hunting should have been
followed up and if there were any negative comments on Malagarasi's performance, I would have thought
it/they should come from the affected client/s, sub-leasing company or booking agent.

Were the clients, at the time they were being "sweet-talked" into booking a hunt informed that the
trophy handling/dipping/packing was Malagarasi's burden and responsibility?...I doubt it.

Seloushunter states: "Its absolutly common that the Trophys leave 1 or 2 years late with this Company.
The Trophy treatment is terrible..." are we therefore to understand that these 9 Companies had no knowledge
of a pre-existing situation?.....I wonder.

How do the affected clients feel about all this and in whose direction are the accusing fingers being
directed?

This brings up another question.

Let us assume Mr. X has the concession from the government.

He sub-leases the area to different PHs throughout the year. They of course pay for all the relevant fees for their clients trophies.

Who is responssible for getting all the paperwork done so the trophies can be exported?

Is it Mr. X who owns the concession, or the PHs who have hunted there?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This brings up another question.

Let us assume Mr. X has the concession from the government.

He sub-leases the area to different PHs throughout the year. They of course pay for all the relevant fees for their clients trophies.

Who is responssible for getting all the paperwork done so the trophies can be exported?

Is it Mr. X who owns the concession, or the PHs who have hunted there?

Saeed,

From what has been already stated by others in the thread, Mr.X allegedly has a known negative record.
It stands to reason therefore that the PHs or leasing companies must have some knowledge or decided to take the chance;
any reputable PH or company would be expected to do some fact-finding before leasing a concession from any
individual, dubious or otherwise (my opinion).
Under normal circumstances, yes, the concession owner would be expected to expedite the relevant paperwork within
a reasonable time frame.
However, with certain "dubious" outfitters the norm is for the PH/leasing company to pay the trophy fees
directly to the Game Dept. via designated Bank (this procedure has been in place for several years).
I still feel a certain degree of responsibility lies with the PH/leasing Company in ascertaining that their
client's interests are upheld.
Lastly, if I were the client and my trophies landed up in S..T Creek, I would have a bone to pick with the person
with whom I struck the deal (Mr. X, PH or leasing company) - in this instance it would appear there are 9 companies
who should directly bear the brunt.

Steiner, your post is not entirely accurate. But you did get your story second hand, so I can see how you might think this.

I spoke to Licky about this, so let me shed some light on the situation before this spins out of control.

Anyone who wishes to comment, please read this entire post. Very critical information here that all fits together and it all starts in the Selous.

Licky leased a block in the Selous, L1. Most of you know that as Don Bowers area, that is not entirely accurate. Don asked Licky if he could set him up in a Selous block. Licky leased the block and let Don hunt there. A few of the members here on AR have hunted there. Gary Hopkins was the ph the last year. Very good ph that had nothing to do with the rest of this story.

End of the year last year, Licky tries to contact Don to get the money from the season to pay the Game Department. Don is nowhere to be seen. The Game Department holds Licky responsible for the payment of $100,000 in trophy fees for L1.

Don has left town and not paid Licky a dime of the $100,000. To this day, nobody knows where he is.

Licky negotiates a payment plan for the trophies from L1 so that he can also export his trophies from Kigosi. Licky has decided to pay all the trophy fees for all the hunters from L1 last year. So, if you hunted L1, and paid your trophy fees, Don Bower stole it, and Licky had to pay it again in order for the trophies to be exported.

He never asked the clients for money or even considered it. They had already paid and it was his responsibility to make it right. Most guys from L1 last year may not even know this happened.

Now let's go to Kigosi.

Most of us have seen a skinning shed. Thatched roof, logs for walls that a huge rat could crawl through. Maybe stick shelves to stack the capes in. The skinning sheds in Kigosi are no different. I have seen them.

What is different is that he also has a "house" in Kigosi that was constructed for trophy storage. I thought it was a home when I saw it. It is elevated, has real sliding glass windows, a real door. The walls are made from a paneling that they trucked in.

It is not a thatched roof, I can't remember, but it is either a metal roof (tin) or composite shingles. It is a waterproof, rodent proof house. If there were not trophies in it, you could live there.

He built it because if they do not get the trophies out before the rains start, they will not come out that year. It was necessary to protect the trophies from water and rodents.

Due to the fiasco with Don Bower, Licky knew that the entire bill for all the trophy fees would not be paid for quite a few months and his Kigosi trophies could not be immediately exported.

Licky could have brought the capes to Dar and stored them in a humid un-air conditioned storage facility that is inferior to the storage facility he has constructed in Kigosi. He decided to leave the trophies in Kigosi because they would be better protected there than in the warehouse in Dar.

I am amused at some of the comments about 9 different companies and booking agents hunting this area. Really? First of all, many booking agents can represent one company, so that's kind of ridiculous. There are probably 30-40 agents maybe more who sell hunts for HHK. Second, a booking agent is not a safari operator.

Two companies leased the two blocks last year. The two companies were Macumba Safaris and Ondjamba Safaris. Licky did sell one 21-day quota to Michelle at Miombo Safaris.

Macumba has been in the South camp for many years. I know they were there in '05. Ondjamba has done hunts there for a while, not sure how long, and last year took one block.

Hardly 9 companies.

It is Licky's responsibility to export the trophies. The last shipment for L1 was shipped out recently.

It was a bad mess, but he took the proper steps to protect the trophies and he "did the right thing" and did it silently by paying the game department for Don Bowers clients trophies.

Wendell,

Thank you for the update.

It seems I wasn't the only one who had a suspicion that not everything is what it appears to be as the this thread developed.

I wonder if this is a case of someone having an axe to grind?

Wendell - Thanks for the clarification, and thanks for setting the record straight! As Saeed mentions, perhaps someone has an axe to grind, perhaps not! Either way, it is unfortunate how rumors can spread from second-hand, inaccurate info, that could have a very negative effect upon one's character and livelihood! Knowing how well you know Licky, I have to assume your info is correct, and I feel particularly bad for Licky as it sounds like he is trying to do the right thing at a HUGE expense to himself! Perhaps Licky should be commended for stepping up, rather than getting the short end of the stick for something that was out of his control. JMO!!!!

On a side note. I have NO personal experience with Licky or his Kigosi blocks but a good client of mine hunted with him 3 years ago and raved about how wonderful the area was!

Aaron

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Wendell - Thanks for the clarification, and thanks for setting the record straight! As Saeed mentions, perhaps someone has an axe to grind, perhaps not! Either way, it is unfortunate how rumors can spread from second-hand, inaccurate info, that could have a very negative effect upon one's character and livelihood! Knowing how well you know Licky, I have to assume your info is correct, and I feel particularly bad for Licky as it sounds like he is trying to do the right thing at a HUGE expense to himself! Perhaps Licky should be commended for stepping up, rather than getting the short end of the stick for something that was out of his control. JMO!!!!

On a side note. I have NO personal experience with Licky or his Kigosi blocks but a good client of mine hunted with him 3 years ago and raved about how wonderful the area was!

Aaron

I have known Licky for a good many years and in spite of the trashing he unnecessarily gets from some individuals,
has always delivered the goods, at times going out of his way and out of pocket.
The Don Bower saga is not common knowledge to all the folks out there - Wendell has depicted a very clear
picture indeed.
I guess it is fair to say that one cannot please everyone all the time - that saying would also be for Licky and a
whole bunch of other outfitters for that matter - we have seen such threads on AR.

If Steiner and the "guy in Arusha" have something concrete to substantiate their accusations with, then by all
means produce it. If not, quit the smear campaign and find something better to do!

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

Anyone who wishes to comment, please read this entire post. Very critical information here that all fits together and it all starts in the Selous.

Why should I do that when I can just type, "Wendell Sucks!!" and be done with it?

That's it. I wasn't going to post the picture of you and the three goats, but now I am. I just need to find it first.

Where did I put that picture?

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:


That's it. I wasn't going to post the picture of you and the three goats, but now I am. I just need to find it first.

Where did I put that picture?

You've probably got it taped to your shaving mirror so you can look at it first thing every morning!

Hold on to your horses now,no axe to grind here.

Let me start again,I've hunted several times with TGT both Kigosi and Moyowosi.I want to hunt Kigosi again because I experieced it as one of the best areas in Tanzania.

As most clients I made long lasting friendships in the bush,i.e."the people in Arusha".

I knew the info they would give me might be a little bit one sided as they want to sell me a hunt themselves,but nevertheless,I thought where there is smoke there might be fire,so I came here for a unbiased opinion.

Thanks for correcting me Wendell but every story has two (sometimes more) sides."They" tell me Licky didn't pay but Jaco from Ondjamba came up with the money.(btw. if its the money from this years clients,can it be considered a Ponzi sceme? )

I guess we'll get more info if Ray can send Sheephunter and Linda Adams there with PVT as ph,Doug Chester as observer and 500grains can do the first post.

That'll get me off the hook anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:
Thanks for correcting me Wendell but every story has two (sometimes more) sides."They" tell me Licky didn't pay but Jaco from Ondjamba came up with the money.

All trophies taken in a Malagarasi hunting area are exported by Malagarasi Safaris.

I am sure Jaco did pay his trophy fees to Licky, and I bet that Licky paid them directly to the game department. But with $100,000 outstanding from Don Bower (essentially a Malagarasi debt), no trophies were going to be exported until this could be sorted out.

The decision to move the trophies out of Kigosi must be done quickly before the rains. This issue was not sorted out in time to get the trophies out before the rains, so they will wait. Sitting in good secure tight storage until this year.

This is not the first time the trophies have not left before the rains. It is a possibility, which is why he had the trophy storage house built.

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:
Let me start again,I've hunted several times with TGT both Kigosi and Moyowosi.I want to hunt Kigosi again because I experieced it as one of the best areas in Tanzania.

As most clients I made long lasting friendships in the bush,i.e."the people in Arusha".

I knew the info they would give me might be a little bit one sided as they want to sell me a hunt themselves,but nevertheless,I thought where there is smoke there might be fire,so I came here for a unbiased opinion.

So by reading this, it is very clear who told you this. Seems it was your buddies at TGT. So, TGT was talking trash on Licky again? Big surprise.

You know TGT came to Licky and offered a swap. You give us this Moyowasi block and we will give you these Kigosi blocks.

It was their choice and now it seems they have some buyers remorse over their deal.

TGT is one of the finest hunting companies in Africa, not just Tanzania, so I am not badmouthing them, but they do have an ax to grind with their neighbor.

quote:

Originally posted by Steiner:
Hold on to your horses now,no axe to grind here.

Let me start again,I've hunted several times with TGT both Kigosi and Moyowosi.I want to hunt Kigosi again because I experieced it as one of the best areas in Tanzania.

As most clients I made long lasting friendships in the bush,i.e."the people in Arusha".

I knew the info they would give me might be a little bit one sided as they want to sell me a hunt themselves,but nevertheless,I thought where there is smoke there might be fire,so I came here for a unbiased opinion.

Thanks for correcting me Wendell but every story has two (sometimes more) sides."They" tell me Licky didn't pay but Jaco from Ondjamba came up with the money.(btw. if its the money from this years clients,can it be considered a Ponzi sceme? )

I guess we'll get more info if Ray can send Sheephunter and Linda Adams there with PVT as ph,Doug Chester as observer and 500grains can do the first post.

That'll get me off the hook anyway

That's a very interesting comment to come from someone who's only made a very few previous posts on the forum and only been registered since 14 January 2009........... Esp as the poster (who incidentally has a blank profile) appears to present himself as a client who appears to have bumped into people in Arusha a full week before the season has opened.

Still, perhaps the week was spent not grinding axes. So far, I've counted something like a dozen 'sideways swipes' in this thread at various (albeit, not all named) agents & outfitters etc.

Steve,

The Internet being what it is, I have learnt not to pay too much attention to those who try to hide behind an ID and show as little of themselves as they can.

Wendell you add leadership to this set of boards we need more like ya

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
So by reading this, it is very clear who told you this. Seems it was your buddies at TGT. So, TGT was talking trash on Licky again? Big surprise.

You know TGT came to Licky and offered a swap. You give us this Moyowasi block and we will give you these Kigosi blocks.

It was their choice and now it seems they have some buyers remorse over their deal.

TGT is one of the finest hunting companies in Africa, not just Tanzania, so I am not badmouthing them, but they do have an ax to grind with their neighbor.

Wendell,
Live by your own words and check your facts before making conclusions. At this point, you are barking up the wrong tree

But, if you are convinced, pls explain what axe TGT might have with Licky?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Wendell,
Live by your own words and check your facts before making conclusions. At this point, you are barking up the wrong tree

But, if you are convinced, pls explain what axe TGT might have with Licky?

There are two sides to every story, so, if you know the other side to this, and I am wrong, I am open to hearing about it.

But, what am I supposed to take from this?

quote:

I've hunted several times with TGT both Kigosi and Moyowosi ... As most clients I made long lasting friendships in the bush,i.e."the people in Arusha".

It sounds to me like he is saying, "My TGT friend told me this about Kigosi."

I posted here to clear up the facts about the trophies. TGT is a fine company, I said so above. I am not getting in the middle of a pissing match between two companies.

Chill out guys, I think you'll probably find the only people bad mouthing anyone on this are some of the posters right here.......

Funny how you can bump into people in Arusha, a week before the start of the season when they would all probably have been running round like chickens with their heads cut off building camps in the middle of nowhere or organising supplies etc.

Still, maybe everyone went to town to not grind axes.



This one's got more holes in it than a trawl net......

I can tell you unequivocally that TGT has no axe to grind with Licky. The swap was, as you correctly state, voluntary by both parties and I don't think either party regrets their decision - particularly Licky who obtained, at the time, a superior, well managed block.

I don't know who Mr Steiner refers to as "the people in Arusha" but it isn't TGT.

However, you insinuate that TGT has an axe to grind with Licky and that they have talked trash about Licky before. This is not correct. Licky would confirm this.

Steiner who???

Troll Alert...

Steve I was wondering the same thing...


Mike

I think if it were me, I would have a $25,000 fee paid for Don Bowers "in the salt".

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
The swap was, as you correctly state, voluntary by both parties and I don't think either party regrets their decision

Fair enough. Maybe my "buyers remorse" comment was out of line then. My apologies to TGT.

quote:

I don't know who Mr Steiner refers to as "the people in Arusha" but it isn't TGT.

I took him at his word. It will be up to each reader to evaluate the accuracy of his statement. I will give TGT the benefit of the doubt.

I am sure it is not official TGT policy to criticize their neighbor, but I have heard a TGT employee openly criticize him and his Lion hunting. So, like I said, it is not the first time.

Bearing in mind that TGTS have what is probably one of the finest and strictest Lion management policies anywhere in Africa, it's hardly suprising an occasional employee might make an occasional off the cuff remark that might criticise other company's Lion management policies......... I'd actually be suprised if that didn't happen from time to time.

Personally, I reckon this was nothing more than an ill disguised attempt at a bit of industrial espionage aimed an no particular company in particular............ and when agents/outfitters and other people in the industry continue to argue on this here, all they're doing is playing right into the hands of the originator and doing exactly what he'd intended.

My bet is there's no animosity whatsoever between the two companies.

For what it's worth, I for one won't hunt Tanzania again. I have hunted there twice and never fired a shot. The first time was with Usangu Safaris, Zaire Mulla, they took us to camp and then the PH asked us if we had our permits which we paid for in advance. It turns out that the concession had been turned into a national park and no hunting allowed. They were having their clients poach. Because the government found out what was happening they wouldn't let us hunt. The game scout was suppose to get us our permits. After 5 days of waiting we called in a plane and left. $25,000 down the drain. The following year we went with Robin Hurt. All legal, but no game, 10 days of hard hunting, 14 hours a day, nothing to shoot. I have invested over $50,000 in Tanzania and have nothing but bad memories. Did meet some very nice people, our first PH, Mushi, was very helpful in getting us out of a bad situation. There is nothing like having $20,000 in cash with you, next to a croc filled river and a camp staff that hasn't been paid in 3 months

Usango and Mulla have had a number of bad complaints here in the past.

Wasn't he the one who had a house taken away from him by court in Florida too?

Robin Hurt, on the other hand, I have not heard anything bad about in the past.

Regarding arriving in camp without a license already orgenized, this has happened to other members of this forum, hunting with outfitters who do post here.

Not paying the camp staff and PHs, this has also occured to PHs working for outfitters who do post on this forum.

To me, this is the ultimate let down, as they have already been paid by the client.

This sort of behaviour makes me promise to never hunt with such an outfit, regardelss of how good they are.

Having hunted Tanzania every year since 2003, with 3 different outfitters, I always look forward to going there again.

All of them have provided us with exceptional hunts, and would recommend them to any hunter without any reservations.

I didn't want to imply that Robin Hurt (actually Derek Hurt) wasn't trying his hardest, he was, just no animals, too many poachers. I have hunted Namibia(twice) and South Africa. Both were exceptional, Got a gold medal buff in S.A. My wife, we found out on our last trip to TZ, reacts to tse-tse flies. That will also probably help keep me out of Tanzania.

Zaire Mulla can not enter the US or he will be arrested. Bill Fronterhouse from Anchorage, AK. reprsented Usango and by now has probably lost his house. We were small potatos compared to some of the other people he ripped off. Several of them his college buddies. I know Jack Brittingham was after them. We got the Mulla's kicked out of the 2008 SCI convention. I probably shouldn't have brought it up but this thread just brought back a lot of memories.

Thanks for listening....Tom

Were you hunting for specific animals that you were not able to see in 10 days?

If the poaching was that bad, then I think no safari compnay has any right booking clients to hunt in that specific area.

We came across some poachers in TGTs area last year, but, apart from the cats, we got all the animals we had on license.

We were hunting primarly for buff. I actually wanted a Grant's Zebra (probably have that name wrong) but it is only found there. It has more black than most, very striking. Never found a stallion. We went one day without seeing anything except a sable that we couldn't shoot. I never saw an animal that I was allowed to shoot other than a so-so buff at 200 yrds. and he instantly ran into the park. Afterwards Derek apolgised for not moving camp.

We found a poachers camp every day and we would stop and destroy them. Our game scout, who I still e-mail, was at a lose as to what to do. Too many refugees from Rwawnda and Zim. What few elephants we saw were running and screaming, they were that afraid of man. We found three poached elephant sculls.

RHS have an excellent reputation and it's very unusual to hear anything bad about them....... however it should be borne in mind that TZ, unlike RSA is a true wilderness area with no fences and game is free to roam........ can I ask where and when you were hunting?

BTW, that would be Grant's Gazelle.

Again, I don't want to imply that RHS is not a quality organization, they are top drawer. We were hunting in the Miele Area, if that rings a bell, at the end of the season Oct/Nov 2008. It was exceptionally wet and this didn't help. No need for the animals to find water.

It was a Zebra I was after. It's a sub-species of the Burchell, I believe, not a Hartmann's. It almost looks like a negative.

Should have been good hunting but as I say true wilderness areas do have both pros and cons and one drawback is that the game is free to come and go........... and sometimes they go.

I hunted Burigi soon after the refugees from Rwanda went through and game was very scarce at first. Then the weather changed and the entire area filled up with game, literally overnight.

This Zahir Mulla prick is/was a big problem.

On the first day of our 07 hunt, we caught them poaching our area with 2 clients from Vegas at least a couple of miles inside our concession. I spoke to his clients. It wasn't a pretty story. Now like that was not bad enough, this Mulla prick came back and did it again a couple of days later!

We got word a few days later that some of the PH's quit and left camp because they had not been paid.

He hosed a ton of people.

Tapper, I can appreciate what you are saying. I had one HORRIBLE hunt in TZ. When you drop a ton of money and you experience something that you didn't think was possible it is disconcerting.

To give you an idea as to how much of a prick Mulla is, on the third day we run out of meat all we had for dinner was tomatoes and potatos and, of coarse, rice.
The next day the game scout wanted us to loan him one of our rifles so he could shoot some camp meat.

You can guess how well that went over.

He took Mulla's .300WM Colt-Sauer and bummed shells from us. He was suppose to shoot an impala but found a Cape buff instead and shot it three times. Came running back wanting more shells to finish it off. He got two more shells and he and a tracker went back to where he shot it. It was dead but it's mate was there and not happy. She charged and he shot twice dropped the gun and ran. The tracker got tossed but was lucky and only got a very bad bruise. The game scout was up a tree. The buff die but not before breaking Mulla's stock in half at the wrist. Had I known it was his before hand I would have broken it myself. There was a small amount of justice