quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

.. he's brain shooting them with military .308 FMJ's.

.. but he still misses the brain on one occasion and has to give the bull another one.

well what shall we say about that ozzie buff culler?..howabout; NO body is perfect.. ,
and in regards to Bell, he never was the absolute perfect one brain shot DRT master, his meticulous recording keeping shows,
that he averaged 1.5 rounds per elephant.

quote:

I'd strongly advise not to go walking around the bush Buffalo hunting with a .308,
because one day you will more than likely end up with a horn in the rear end !!!

I think your advice is little late for Bell...
yet he still managed to kill on foot,several hundred capeBuff with his small bores, with no back-up.
with no horn-in-the-ass or anywhere else for that matter...
and if he could have used a modern .308win with FN solids of today, He would no doubt have also done alright with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:

Three dead buffalo in just 4 or 5 seconds...hmmmm??

Bell does not say he has 3 'dead' buff in 4-5 seconds.

It seems to me Bell was implying that after his three rapid shots,
That he then judged the bulls to require no more shots....
that does not necessarily mean they all died instantly to each shot.
eg;
NO doubt the shot bulls were all a few yards apart and possibly by the time he carefully approached each one,
in the long grass, he found some to be dead and/or some in their lasts feeble kicks of life.
Hence he then deemed that the job was really all done in first 4-5 seconds of shooting.

I think very highly of Bell's skills with the smaller magazine rifles. That he practised constantly with them shows in his ability to hit where he intended. Otherwise I think he would have suffered the same fate as many did against large African game with small bore rifles.

However, he did not appreciate the recoil of larger rifles (medium to large bore) and I read one story of his where he wired the triggers of a med-large bore double together to kill an elephant, with poor results. I am not sure if this was in his early days.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
Bell or no Bell, and as good a marksman as he may have been, cycling the bolt,
picking and pinpointing the target all in 5 seconds is hard to swallow.

First bull shot was stationary at 10yd, the second bull now visible was shot stationary just behind the first,
Third bull to the side then motioned across Bells path.

After the instant of the first shot, Bell then effectively took five seconds to take the other two aimed shots,
on a stationary target _and on one now moving target.

-is that really too hard to believe?

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:

However, he did not appreciate the recoil of larger rifles (medium to large bore) and I read one story of his where he wired
the triggers of a med-large bore double together to kill an elephant, with poor results. I am not sure if this was in his early days.

Bell did not publish, but did express in a personal letter to his close friend, as to what level of recoil he didn't like.
and the reason why he stopped using his .450 cal Thomas Bland SxS.

Point he made was, that he didn't appreciate the level of recoil from the simultaneously fired .450 barrels,
> does anyone know someone who would?
..and he stopped using the .450cal not because he didn't like single barrel recoil, but because his habit was to carry the gun open
for safety, which allowed grit to fall into the action from the residual dried mud left behind by elephant on the thorn trees.
He once found himself between two bulls and his grit contaminated .450 SxS became useless, so he never used it again.

He also did not appreciate the level of recoil {from the bench} of the .500 & .577 Express doubles he would help sight for his friend
& gunmaker,Daniel Frazer.....which seems rather understandable!!

Now when he went to WW1, he had already killed a small mountain of DG with his small bores, yet the personal firearm he used to fire at Germans from his airplane was the .450cal, ...why not his trusty mild 7mm if he was really so recoil shy??



[QUOTE] "At one time I used a double -45 0-400. It was a beautiful weapon, but heavy.
Its drawbacks I found were : it was slow for the third and succeeding shots ; it was noisy ;
the cartridges weighed too much ; the strikers broke if a shade too hard or flattened and cut
the cap if a shade too soft ; the caps of the cartridges were quite unreliable ; and finally,
if any sand, grit or vegetation happened to fall on to the breech faces as you tore along you
were done ; you could not close it. Grit especially was liable to do this when following an
elephant which had had a mud bath, leaving the vegetation covered with it as he passed along.
This would soon dry and tumble off at the least touch."

-WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]

SORRY FOLKS, NO MENTION BY BELL OF IT GIVING TOO MUCH RECOIL.

quote:

First bull shot was stationary at 10yd, the second bull now visible was shot stationary just behind the first,
Third bull to the side then motioned across Bells path.

After the instant of the first shot, Bell then effectively took five seconds to take the other two aimed shots,
on a stationary target _and on one now moving target.

-is that really too hard to believe?

Not hard to believe at all. 4-5 second for a couple of 10 yard follow up shots is lots of time. I don't imagine anyone had a stop watch on him in any event.

Thanks for the clarification Trax.

Not sure why he would wire the triggers that way!

Cheers,

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Not sure why he would wire the triggers that way!

Bell was conducting tests as to the comparative effectiveness on elephant of:
800grains total of projectile weight[i.e;both barrels].. (vs) the effectiveness of single weight projectiles in 6.5mm and 7mm.

He found the .450 no more effective than the smaller bores when both were poorly placed.
And he found that the smaller bores were no less effective when precisely placed.

The many miles he covered on foot persuing elephant and the running beside the herds to get into better position,
meant that a lighter faster handling rifle was easier to bear the long arduous work hr days, sometimes going for continuous for months.

One his favourite was the trim lightweight 6.5mm Mannlicher at something over 6lb, switching to the 1lb heavier stdM98 7x57 because the
DWM ammunition proved much more reliable in manufacture quality.

He carried a high capacity cartridge belt purchased from Rigby......


[QUOTE]
"The food ran out. The boys had eaten all the elephant meat they had bought with them. My food was finished, but the cartridges were not, thank goodness.
I remember ordering a cartridge belt from Rigby to hold fifty rounds. He asked me what on earth I wanted with so many on it. I said I like them and there
was a time when it paid to have them." -WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]


[QUOTE] "At the same time I got the .256 I also acquired the first rifle I had made especially for me - a .275 (7mm) Mauser by Rigby of London.
It was still in the days of the round-nosed bullet, and luckily for me the ammo was good, sound, reliable, German DWM stuff,powder,case,cap and bullet…
..Without fault or hitch, misfire or hang-fire, that little rifle slew some eight hundred bull elephant besides scores of buffalo, a few rhino, and an occasional lion."
-WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]

Of the 25 lions Bell killed, he wrote that 16 were taken with solids in 6.5mm and 7mm.

Here he talks about his Daniel Frazer .256 bore for ivory and his dedicated meat gun, the Gibbs .256 bore -----

[QUOTE] "I got a .256 Mannlicher-Schonauer and used it on elephant. I used the long Gibbs -a most beautiful rifle- entirely for meat-getting.
And what a deadly weapon it was!....Just to give an idea of this sort of thing, the donkey headman demands four hundred skins for donkey saddles…
..This particular trouble was generally cured by nine or ten giraffe; failing them, a score or so of zebra or, more rarely, by a dozen buffalo.
That Gibbs certainly had a full-time job to do. I don't think that even now a better rifle could be found for that particular work." - WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]



Bell also intentionally experimented with other small cartridges:


[QUOTE] " In parts they (buffaloes) were the regular ration for the camp.
I remember killing 23 out of 23 with a high velocity .22 rifle partly to see how effective
the tiny 80 grain bullet was but chiefly because meat was required. I must have killed between
six and seven hundred of these animals in all. Their hide was a constant trade article.
Cut into sandal and shield sizes they never failed to attract an abundant supply of flour". - WDM Bell.
[end/QUOTE]


Some of his career details that Bell supplied to the author of' Big Game Shooting Records" 1931,....

[QUOTE] " Best method of keeping one's own feet in working condition in spite of rubs and blisters,
is to wash socks every day and powder them thickly with boracic. Best diet for hunting sour milk and
dried buck meat (biltong). Next best elephant trunk, cut small and stewed, with native vegetables and flour." - WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]


[QUOTE] " Regarding my bag of black rhino I find that out of a total of 63 killed no less than 41 were shot
when presenting some sort of menace to either myself or to a line of porters or to an encampment. Of the remainder
only three were killed for food, thus indicating the richness of the other and better meat harvest, while the rem-
ainder were chiefly killed for making sandals or for rewarding natives with shield pieces. In my time the horn was
not worth taking unless of unusual size." - WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]

Yield from five best Safaris
Weight of Ivory Value

14,780 Ibs. . . .7,3<x>

14,247 Ibs. . . . 7,082

12,814 Ibs. . . . 6,923

11,024 Ibs. . . . 4,792

10,670 Ibs. . . . 4,230


Best Year

Ivory sold . . . 7,300
Expenditure . . 3,100

Profit 4,200

Worst Year

Expenditure . . 3,400

Ivory sold . . . 1,563



Loss 1,837

[end/QUOTE]



[QUOTE]
Locality. Bull Elephants.

Mombasa-Malindi Coast . . 14
Tana River . . . . 17
Masindi District . . .23
Mount Elgon . . . -42
Mani-Mani . . . . 91

Dodose 63

Dabossa ..... 149
Lado Enclave .... 266
French Ivory Coast . . .80

Liberia 27

French Congo .... 189
Belgian Congo . . . .22
[end/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

.. he's brain shooting them with military .308 FMJ's.

.. but he still misses the brain on one occasion and has to give the bull another one.

well what shall we say about that ozzie buff culler?..howabout; NO body is perfect.. ,
and in regards to Bell, he never was the absolute perfect one brain shot DRT master, his meticulous recording keeping shows,
that he averaged 1.5 rounds per elephant.

Trax, if you are going to quote my posts, could you please quote my whole statement and not just the pieces of it, that work in well with what you have to say.

Otherwise people may get the idea, that when your not posting here, your hard at work at the "Daily Telegraph"

My post was comparing hunting Dangerous Game on foot to meat shooting Buffalo off the dashboard of a 4WD.

You are right "nobody's perfect", so if a professional can't be perfect off a solid rest in front seat of a 4WD, how would they go hunting on foot free hand ? !!!!!

Makes you wonder how some people survive without a scratch !!!

Some of us are lucky, some are good. I'd prefer to be lucky !

quote:

I'd strongly advise not to go walking around the bush Buffalo hunting with a .308,
because one day you will more than likely end up with a horn in the rear end !!!

I think your advice is little late for Bell...
yet he still managed to kill on foot,several hundred capeBuff with his small bores, with no back-up.
with no horn-in-the-ass or anywhere else for that matter...
and if he could have used a modern .308win with FN solids of today, He would no doubt have also done alright with it.

My advise was intended for the aspiring Big Game Hunter of today.

Based on what I have experienced and learnt in over 30 years of hunting and guiding with some of the best hunters and guides in the business

Not based on what I have read in a book sitting by the fire in my armchair.

Try standing off on a "pissed off" Buffalo with a .308 in your hand and then you will know what the true meaning of "feeling small" is like

The past is the past, never to return.

Move on !

I have wondered as well over the years, especially having hunted Cape Buffalo in Zim six years ago.

Cape Buffalo are legendary in their ability to soak up bullets, both softs and solids, and still bring the fight. Often for hours after what should have been a killing shot, or several...

I shot mine the second round, with a Barnes old-style solid from ten yards in the brisket from a 450 Dakota. That load was 2470fps at the muzzle, and it did drop him. But, the second "insurance Shot" got him up on his front feet and only death kept him out of my lap.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

My advise was intended for the aspiring Big Game Hunter of today.

So was the highly experienced advice Bell gave to the aspiring BG hunters of his day,
.. and offered it to them based on the extensive hardcore hunting he did on foot without backup.


In Bell, we are talking about a fellow who did not get the speedy convenient luxury of fly-in/fly-out,
ATVs and 4WDs or cost buffering daily-fees to his business model if no ivory laden bulls were found
..and he was someone who relied on the animals he killed to feed himself and his large group.
For some sensible workable reason, his choice of calibre and shooting skills did that and much more, for him.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

Based on what I have experienced and learnt in over 30 years of hunting and guiding with some of the best hunters and guides in the business

Not based on what I have read in a book sitting by the fire in my armchair.

Well there you go folks,..

Mr.Mayall is happy for us to read his advice on a digital computer screen in front of modern gas heater or air conditioner,
But seems to have some negative perception of people reading Bell in paper copy by the fire in an armchair.

Personally, I read some of Bells publication works in electronic digitised archive version while sitting on sandstone by the sea,
.. does that change anything?..

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

The past is the past, never to return.
move on

Im sure people on the forum know that its gone, and nobody here is really trying to bring it back.
Yet strangely and despite your own advice to the forum, you yourself clearly like to refer to the
'past' 30yrs of your hunting life...

Despite the passage of time whether its your past experience or that of Bells,Selby,Aagaard,Boddington,etc.
... animals die just the same as they did all through that time, to proper construction well placed projectiles.

In fact, Bells small bores in 6.5mm and 7mm were used in later yrs, by several people including:
R.Ruark,the Selby family,later owners Mr.Evans and Mr.Hill, to very successfully kill a simliar range of African animals to Bell.
Harry Selby himself hunted with Bells 7mm and also was the PH in several of the hunts using that rifle, and went on record to
to say that the 7mm solid performed well, doing every thing expected of it without fuss.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
Try standing off on a "pissed off" Buffalo with a .308 in your hand and then you will know what the true meaning
of "feeling small" is like

Goodhand and yourself guide compound-bow equipped hunter clients onto buffalo.
..So why not a modern loaded .30cal?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

My advise was intended for the aspiring Big Game Hunter of today.

So was the highly experienced advice Bell gave to the aspiring BG hunters of his day,
.. and offered it to them based on the extensive hardcore hunting he did on foot without backup.


In Bell, we are talking about a fellow who did not get the speedy convenient luxury of fly-in/fly-out,
ATVs and 4WDs or cost buffering daily-fees, if no ivory laden bulls were found...and he was someone who
relied on the animals he killed to feed himself and his large group.
For some sensible reason, his choice of calibre and shooting skills did that and much more, for him.

Trax, when I look for advice in 2014 on hunting areas, rifles ammunition etc. I look for " the best advice" or "the current advice" not hundred year old advise.

There are too many idiots out there in Australia shooting Dangerous Game animal with light calibres.

Now I don't care if they get smashed, but if they wound an animal and it gets away to die slowly, well that really "pisses me off"

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

There are too many idiots out there in Australia shooting Dangerous Game animal with light calibres...

In you saying that, I will then ask you again....

Goodhand and yourself guide compound-bow equipped hunter clients onto asiatic buffalo.
..So why not a modern loaded .30cal ?

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
Trax, when I look for advice in 2014 on hunting areas, rifles ammunition etc. I look for " the best advice" or "the current advice"
not hundred year old advise.

Mr.Mayall, just for your enlightenment & education;

Bell didn't advise or recommend calibre to anyone, he simply relayed the high success & killing efficiency he achieved over the yrs on
thousands of animals with the choice-selection of rifles and cartridges/projectiles he had to experiment and extensively professionally hunt with.
_and funny enough PHs and recreational hunters who yrs later used Bells own rifle & bullet types on African game from elephant down, were all successful.

The advice Bell did give to new aspiring BG hunters of his time, was to:

-- choose a suitable cartridge/projectile combination and get to know it very very well
-- take the effort to make the first shot count i.e; proper disciplined bullet placement.

That's still remains sound valuable wise advice to any of todays hunters, just as it was 100yrs ago...

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

Based on what I have experienced and learnt in over 30 years of hunting and guiding with some of the best hunters and guides in the business

Not based on what I have read in a book sitting by the fire in my armchair.

Well there you go folks,..

Mr.Mayall is happy for us to read his advice on a digital computer screen in front of modern gas heater or air conditioner,
But seems to have some negative perception of people reading Bell in paper copy by the fire in an armchair.

Personally, I read some of Bells publication works in electronic digitised archive version while sitting on sandstone by the sea,

.. does that change anything?..

Trax, my advice is free, people can take it or leave it and you didn't have to buy a book to get it.


I enjoy a good book as much as the next guy, but prefer to be actually out there doing it rather than reading about it.


You can't feel the morning Sun hit you in a book or smell and hear a herd of Banteng before you actually get up on them.


]Originally posted by petermayall:

The past is the past, never to return.
move on

Im sure people on the forum know that its gone, and nobody here is really trying to bring it back.
Yet strangely and despite your own advice to the forum, you yourself clearly like to refer to the
'past' 30yrs of your hunting life...

Trax, Not sure what your confused about here didn't think 30yrs was that long ago, your making me feel old now.,

Thank Christ I'm not able to talk about 100 yrs ago or you would be reading this in a book and I'd be in a box.



Despite the passage of time whether its your past experience or that of Bells,Selby,Aagaard,Boddington,etc.
... animals die just the same as they did all through that time, to proper construction well placed projectiles.


Trax, animals may die the same, but I think they may be a little more "educated" than they were a hundred years ago.



In fact, Bells small bores in 6.5mm and 7mm were used in later yrs, by several people including:
R.Ruark,the Selby family,later owners Mr.Evans and Mr.Hill, to very successfully kill a simliar range of African animals to Bell.
Harry Selby himself hunted with Bells 7mm and also was the PH in several of the hunts using that rifle, and went on record to
to say that the 7mm solid performed well, doing every thing expected of it without fuss.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
Try standing off on a "pissed off" Buffalo with a .308 in your hand and then you will know what the true meaning
of "feeling small" is like

Goodhand and yourself guide compound-bow equipped hunter clients onto buffalo.
..So why not a modern loaded .30cal?[/QUOTE]

Trax, I just did a modern loaded .30cal hunt and what a F@%# UP it was. Made me sick to be part of it.

How would you suggest you do one ?

Brain shoot it and hope the client doesn't blow its jaw off. Spine shoot it and hope you don't have to walk up and finish the poor bastard off.

Or double lung it. Have you ever seen how long it takes for a big bovine to bleed out sometimes. It's not a good look !

Use a large rifle and get the job done quick and affectively !

And in reference to the guided Bow hunters.

Goodhand and myself are always standing right there beside them with a 470NE or 500 Jeffery which unfortunately we sometimes have to use, not a bloody 7mm.


All the best and good hunting

petermayall

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

Trax, I just did a modern loaded .30cal hunt and what a F@%# UP it was. Made me sick to be part of it.

How would you suggest you do one ?

Brain shoot it and hope the client doesn't blow its jaw off. Spine shoot it and hope you don't have to walk up and finish the poor bastard off.

Or double lung it. Have you ever seen how long it takes for a big bovine to bleed out sometimes. It's not a good look !

Use a large rifle and get the job done quick and affectively !

And in reference to the guided Bow hunters.

Goodhand and myself are always standing right there beside them with a 470NE or 500 Jeffery which unfortunately we sometimes have to use, not a bloody 7mm.


All the best and good hunting

petermayall

Mr.Mayall if your genuinely so concerned about how long it can take for a buff to die,
and you truly believe that it should all be done more quickly and effectively with large-bore rifle,
Why do you allow bow hunters in which Goodhand and yourself have need to finish the job when they cannot?

Complaining about .30cal whilst still permitting bow hunters whom have proven they cant quickly finish the job,
seems contradictory and hypocritical.

Q/ If one of your bow clients pricks a buff through the lungs,and it moves off, how long before you step in?
i.e.; how much time does the Bow hunter client get to pursue and finish the wounded bull in situations where
its not charging?

Peter, I fear you are wasting valuable time that could be better spent . . . watching grass grow. Trax is the Energizer Bunny of Imposters. You will find he is long on opinions and light on experience. Do what many others have done to avoid the aggravation and irritation of dealing with Trax, put him on ignore. Now if we can only get folks to stop quoting him the efficacy of the ignore feature will be truly realized and life will be good.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Peter, I fear you are wasting valuable time that could be better spent . . . watching grass grow. Trax is the Energizer Bunny of Imposters. You will find he is long on opinions and light on experience. Do what many others have done to avoid the aggravation and irritation of dealing with Trax, put him on ignore. Now if we can only get folks to stop quoting him the efficacy of the ignore feature will be truly realized and life will be good.

Thanks for the advice, I'll take it !

MR.Mayall,

Big-bores in your mind are necessary for a quick humane kill on Buff, ..but
but compound-bow shot slower dying buff are tolerated, because your business model wants the bow hunter clients money.
Your not the first hypocrite hunting guide or PH to make their presence on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
Goodhand and myself are always standing right there beside them with a 470NE or 500 Jeffery which unfortunately
we sometimes have to use, not a bloody 7mm.

MR.Mayall,
you clearly seem stubbornly stuck on stupid, since neither WDM Bell, or anyone on this thread, has ever recommend you use 7mm.

See how good it feels Peter . . . to know that Trax posted some mindless, inane drivel and you do not even have to pollute your mind with it. Bliss.

MJines, you need to go have another personal bonding session with the celebrity hunter who missed his buffalo
and instead recklessly and ineptly shot his PH using a BIGBORE.

and you claim to have me on 'ignore' but can't seem to stop talking about me...


anyway, it felt like Mr. Mayall was here more to talk and promote more about himself rather than
any genuine interest in the thread subject of WDM Bell and the high success he achieved with small bores.

-- Mr.Mayall tells of ONE bad experience with .30cal and he now would like us to think he knows all about killing DG
with a smaller bore....and he would prefer you ignore Bells rather extensive success with smaller bores.

-- Mr.Mayall tells everyone to 'move on' from the hunting past ,be he himself insists on specifically referring to his past 30yrs.

-- According to Mr.Mayall,, his own past 30yrs of hunting are relevant, but when one mentions the collective yrs of experience
from the likes of Bell,Selby, and others who very successful used Bells small bore guns-bullets in the decades following Bell,
he considers the yrs of all those other experienced hunters, as now -irrelevant.

-- In a Goodhand/Mayall camp, a slower death by .30cal is frowned on and criticised, but a slower death by arrowhead is acceptable
and tolerated, with bow hunters welcomed.

-- According to Mr.Mayall, fireplaces and paper books on Bell are out, but reading Mayall on the internet is the recommended inthing.

-- According to Mr. Mayall, Bells advice to budding new BG hunters is obsolete, yet truth is, it's the same sound wise advice given
by todays well seasoned and well respected PHs and credible hunting mag. writers.

-- Mr.Mayall, in his vivid imagination thinks Mr.Bell recommended Small-bores, to him & others for DG, which is not the case.

-- and now that he realises he has painted himself into a corner by his own ignorance,errors and contradictions, Mr.Mayall does a runner
from the Bell thread, to avoid digging a deeper hole for himself in defence of them.

is there room for me to embroil myself in this controversy, or is it a personal thing?

I feel soooooooooo left out...

quote:

[QUOTE] " In parts they (buffaloes) were the regular ration for the camp.
I remember killing 23 out of 23 with a high velocity .22 rifle ... - WDM Bell.
[end/QUOTE]

Kids do not try this at home.

Walter Bell shot 23 buffalo once with a .22 hipower and took 26 shots to do it. He lung shot all of them, by the way.
They used to shoot wild cattle in NZ with a .222 and do it the same way. I dont see what grounds you guys have to doubt the man. Based on what?

He killed 1,011 elephants. I would take him at his word. He was an officer on the RFC as well.

He didn't get a VC, he got the Military Cross, twice. (MC and bar)

He wrote that episode with the buffalo as quoted, and the point of the passage was to show that the 7x57 would kill buffalo, and to describe some fast shooting when he was in a tight scrape coming across three at point blank range. I dont think he is implying he killed all his buffalo that way.

This must all be taken in context: Bell was not trophy hunting for buff, he was shooting them in numbers for their hides and for meat. He was not singling out big bulls.

However, in a letter he wrote that he found buffalo ridiculously easy animals to kill if you shot them right, and very difficult animals to kill if you didn't. He shot around 800 of them, mostly with the .275 or his 6.5 long barreled Mannlicher and he said that he made it his business that he shouldn't be charged by one and he only wanted to shoot a buffalo once; this was after he had a close call with one when he was carrying a double rifle on his first or second safari and got a fright. So he did have a healthy respect for them.

As for his shooting prowess, he writes of it in his book, but modestly. He mentions the incident shooting flying comorants (not swallows) out of teh air with his .318 WR double gun not the 7x57) out of the air over a lake, because he thinks it is an amusing story because some nearby Italian bird shooters thought he was using a shotgun. (He says he was getting 6 out of 10 of them.)

But you dont have to take Mr Bell's word for it - J.A Hunter describes him shooting fish jumping from the surface of a lake with his rifle. If you don't want to believe Bell, then believe Hunter. If you dont want to believe either of them, go and look at Corriemollie some time, and the old estate boundary. All ivory money.

And let us remember, Bell didn't have to make a cent out of a book, and I doubt he made much out of it. Gentlemen didn't consider making money from books in those days. The house he grew up in was a bloody castle. He had family money. (Today it's a high school.)

(Out of interest, the chapters of "Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" were all originally magazine articles in "Country Life". They were collected and published as a book by the magazine at their own suggestion to him.)

I wish people would actually go and read his books instead of misquoting him, or imagining what he said or did - all of it somehow fitting in with their own personal axe to grind.

quote:

Originally posted by fair game:

..Kids do not try this at home...

Despite all the erroneous-unfounded disparaging & misleading assumptions we hear about about Mr.Bell and 7mm,
(clearly by those who have not read Bell)
He did clearly express in his writings, that going hunting with small bores like 7mm, in the hands of unskilled,
poor nerve,(resulting in poor shot placement) by novice hunters chasing DG, is not recommended.

The key to Bells extensive success and the advice he gave for successful hunting with such bores,
was consistent selective-accurate shot placement...and he produced the extensive empirical evidence to support that.

+>Bell did mention, that a father and son purchased a.275 bore Mauser and killed 90 lions for bounty/payment.
He also mentions people who weren't that capable and got killed or mauled, cause of bad shooting with 7mm.

Killing 90 lions with 7x57, is not an accidental or sheer clueless luck achievement, one must be doing something
consistently correct.....and remember, Bell was not blowing hot wind-up his own ass, when talking of the 90.
He is just telling/sharing of the things going on around in parts of Africa back then.



[QUOTE] " I will only add to that able account the doings of an old Sikh ex-soldier and his son.
It was when the Government had offered a large reward for every lion killed within a mile on either side of the railway.
Fired with the prospect of immediate wealth, this old man obtained a Rigby- Mauser -275, and he and his son took to hunting lions.
There were then in East Africa troops of lions sometimes over twenty strong. Knowing from the permanent-way gangs of coolies
the likeliest spots, the hunters began their operations. These consisted of building shelters from which to fire by night, and
they were generally situated close to reed beds known to be used by lions. At first the shelters were quite elaborate affairs
affording considerable protection. Familiarity taught them that no protection was necessary, and latterly the cache was merely
a ring of boulders over which one could fire from the prone position. The old man could imitate a goat or a cow to perfection,
but whether it was desire on the part of the lions to eat goat or cow, or merely curiosity to find out what the strange noise was,
must remain a mystery. Certain it is,though, that the Sikhs' cache was a sure draw. The young fellow shot straight and true, and
lion after lion succumbed. In nine months these two men claimed the reward on some ninety skins. On about forty-five the reward was
actually paid, there being some doubt as to whether the remainder were killed within the mile limit."
- WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]


[QUOTE] "...and there are a great many things easier to hit than a charging lion. Great care should be taken to plant
the bullet right. The calibre does not matter, I am convinced, provided the bullet is in the right place. Speaking personally,
I have killed sixteen lions with -256 and -275 solid bullets, and, as far as I can recollect, none of them required a second shot."
-WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]



[QUOTE] " In hunting elephant, as in other things, what will suit one man may not suit another. Every hunter has different methods
and uses different rifles. Some believe in the big bores, holding that the bigger the bore therefore the greater the shock. Others hold
that the difference between the shock from a bullet of, say, 250 grs. and that from a bullet of, say, 500 grs. is so slight that, when
exercised upon an animal of such bulk as an elephant, it amounts to nothing at all. And there is no end to the arguments and contentions
brought forward by either side ; therefore it should be borne in mind when reading the following instructions that they are merely the result
of one individual's personal experience and not the hard and fast rules of an exact science."
- WDM Bell
[end/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:
Walter Bell shot 23 buffalo once with a .22 hipower and took 26 shots to do it. He lung shot all of them, by the way.
They used to shoot wild cattle in NZ with a .222 and do it the same way. I dont see what grounds you guys have to doubt the man. Based on what?

He killed 1,011 elephants. I would take him at his word. He was an officer on the RFC as well.

He didn't get a VC, he got the Military Cross, twice. (MC and bar)

He wrote that episode with the buffalo as quoted, and the point of the passage was to show that the 7x57 would kill buffalo, and to describe some fast shooting when he was in a tight scrape coming across three at point blank range. I dont think he is implying he killed all his buffalo that way.

This must all be taken in context: Bell was not trophy hunting for buff, he was shooting them in numbers for their hides and for meat. He was not singling out big bulls.

However, in a letter he wrote that he found buffalo ridiculously easy animals to kill if you shot them right, and very difficult animals to kill if you didn't. He shot around 800 of them, mostly with the .275 or his 6.5 long barreled Mannlicher and he said that he made it his business that he shouldn't be charged by one and he only wanted to shoot a buffalo once; this was after he had a close call with one when he was carrying a double rifle on his first or second safari and got a fright. So he did have a healthy respect for them.

As for his shooting prowess, he writes of it in his book, but modestly. He mentions the incident shooting flying comorants (not swallows) out of teh air with his .318 WR double gun not the 7x57) out of the air over a lake, because he thinks it is an amusing story because some nearby Italian bird shooters thought he was using a shotgun. (He says he was getting 6 out of 10 of them.)

But you dont have to take Mr Bell's word for it - J.A Hunter describes him shooting fish jumping from the surface of a lake with his rifle. If you don't want to believe Bell, then believe Hunter. If you dont want to believe either of them, go and look at Corriemollie some time, and the old estate boundary. All ivory money.

And let us remember, Bell didn't have to make a cent out of a book, and I doubt he made much out of it. Gentlemen didn't consider making money from books in those days. The house he grew up in was a bloody castle. He had family money. (Today it's a high school.)

(Out of interest, the chapters of "Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" were all originally magazine articles in "Country Life". They were collected and published as a book by the magazine at their own suggestion to him.)

I wish people would actually go and read his books instead of misquoting him, or imagining what he said or did - all of it somehow fitting in with their own personal axe to grind.

Well said!

BTW, I read (or rather re-read) Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter in the first 1923 edition while deep in the bush in Karamoja, not far from one of Bell's old camps. Would this be considered armchair philosophy, or sanctioned and permissible reading?

Calsen,

The gist of the most threads here is healthy debate and please do not take all that I write too seriously.

Shooting jumping Salmon and the odd Reed Cormorant with a double is very realistic and reinstates Bells qualities as a marksman- however in my time I have seen a number of buffalo perfectly lung shot with a wide range of calibers and bullet configurations and there has been some failures which have led to wounding and indeed loss of animal. Not to mention ballistic inconsistencies on numerous perfectly lung shot lesser game. Every PH and numerous hunters here will tell you tales of the same. The anatomy of a Cape Buffalo differs greatly to that of a feral cow and the lungs on Buffalo are shielded by large broad overlapping ribs that have evolved to protect the vitals from horn and claw. These plates will now and again distort and shatter the best of bullets. This is my findings in my limited experience with Buffalo. Therefore to claim 100% success on Buff with a .22 is unbelievable to me.

As you have stated Bell came from a wealthy family and as an officer and gentleman hardly needed ivory to supplement his families fortune. Thus one could possibly conclude he safaried Africa with a substantial cheque book and all the trimmings of a well healed traveller?

I simply wanted to debate whether Bells wonderful writings were punctuated with fiction and that his ballistic feats should be questioned.

Besides it seems to keep our good man Trax entertained.

Trax, I'm back, I've worked my way out of that painted corner !


You know it's funny how whenever I go to Hotel bar or add a post to some topic, I always seem to attract one loser !

For some reason they just hang around me, You know, the one that just wont go away.

The one that misconstrues everything you say and then by the end of the night actually changes what you said.

The one that has a little typing temper tantrum when you tell them you don't want to play with them anymore.



I thought I'd have one more play with you before I go hunting.
You know "HUNTING" you should try it some time !




anyway, it felt like Mr. Mayall was here more to talk and promote more about himself rather than
any genuine interest in the thread subject of WDM Bell and the high success he achieved with small bores.


Trax, it may of felt that way to you ! That's your problem !
Don't worry I've got plenty of interest in fools chasing DG with small bores




-- Mr.Mayall tells of ONE bad experience with .30cal and he now would like us to think he knows all about killing DG
with a smaller bore....and he would prefer you ignore Bells rather extensive success with smaller bores.



One bad experience ! I've got a bag full, how many would you like ? That was just a resent one.

In regard to "like us to think he knows all" and "preferring to ignore Bell". Once again that's your twisted opinion again !

The whole point of my post, which seems to have gone over your head, was just because Bell could do it with the smaller bores doesn't mean every Tom, Dick and Harry should attempt to do it.



-- Mr.Mayall tells everyone to 'move on' from the hunting past ,be he himself insists on specifically referring to his past 30yrs.


Trax, You really have got a thing about 30 years.! which I mentioned once. I'm actually referring to hunting "Today", based on what I have read and learnt in the field over the years.
I have moved on, but on the way I put away all the good hunting advice worth keeping and discarded all the rubbish



-- According to Mr.Mayall,, his own past 30yrs of hunting are relevant, but when one mentions the collective yrs of experience
from the likes of Bell,Selby, and others who very successful used Bells small bore guns-bullets in the decades following Bell,

he considers the yrs of all those other experienced hunters, as now -irrelevant.

Trax, Once again you put your own take on what I said. I never mentioned it being irrelevant. However I don't know any PH working today that would recommend a small-bore for Buff hunting.



-- In a Goodhand/Mayall camp, a slower death by .30cal is frowned on and criticised, but a slower death by arrowhead is acceptable
and tolerated, with bow hunters welcomed.


Trax, I didn't know you were an expert on Bow hunting as well now ! Where did I mention anything about a slower death by arrowhead. Do you always run off at the mouth like this ?

All slow deaths are frowned on in our camp, further to this, the death time difference between a correctly shot small bore, big bore or bow and arrow isn't worth talking about.

It's when you get a cock up that the trouble starts and we have found that there's a greater chance of this happening with novice small bore or a bow hunter.






-- According to Mr.Mayall, fireplaces and paper books on Bell are out, but reading Mayall on the internet is the recommended inthing.



Trax, The only thing I recommended was to do more hunting and less reading. Maybe less posting by you would make a few more people happier here by the sound of it.



-- According to Mr. Mayall, Bells advice to budding new BG hunters is obsolete, yet truth is, it's the same sound wise advice given
by todays well seasoned and well respected PHs and credible hunting mag. writers.


Trax, This post is about Bell using small bores on DG animals namely Buffalo, which in this day and age I and everyone else I know don't recommend, simple as that.



-- Mr.Mayall, in his vivid imagination thinks Mr.Bell recommended Small-bores, to him & others for DG, which is not the case.


Trax, Once again the post is about Bell using small bores on DG, I never said he recommended them, your the one who keeps trying to justify their use

which in some countries was/is illegal on DG for good season.


PS I'm not sure what your on , but I don't want any !



-- and now that he realises he has painted himself into a corner by his own ignorance,errors and contradictions, Mr.Mayall does a runner
from the Bell thread, to avoid digging a deeper hole for himself in defence of them.[/QUOTE]

trax, again you verbally assault someone you know absolutely nothing about. how about adding to the discussion your own experiences hunting dg with a small and big bore?? oh that's right, i'm being presumptuous. you more than likely have no dg hunting experience, yet it doesn't stop you from spewing your nonsense

mr. mayall, i would suggest you ignore this troll for he has nothing to add of substance to any discussion as he cannot cite examples of his own experiences, only what he has read.

You know what they say about "good" authors...

Never let the facts ruin a good story..

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Peter, I fear you are wasting valuable time that could be better spent . . . watching grass grow. Trax is the Energizer Bunny of Imposters. You will find he is long on opinions and light on experience. Do what many others have done to avoid the aggravation and irritation of dealing with Trax, put him on ignore. Now if we can only get folks to stop quoting him the efficacy of the ignore feature will be truly realized and life will be good.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

Trax, I'm back,...

.... You know, the one that just wont go away.

your the one who said you followed the attorneys advice to put me on 'ignore',
but now you have backtracked/flip-flopped, by again responding to me?.....

Fairgame,
To take you seriously: You have posted to open up the issue of whether WDM Bell wrote fictional accounts of his hunting.

In my opinion you can speculate anything at all but I'm not sure why you would.
If any of Bell's writing is invented it means his books are entirely worthless. Their only value is in being non-fiction.

Now, you have misunderstood me. No doubt you are right about lung shooting buffalo, but, I didn't say that Bell used a .22 Centrefire on buffalo and had a 100% success rate at all. (Which sounds like he used it all the time and never had a failure.)

I mentioned one incident where he shot a group of 23 animals with a .22 Hi-power. This was done as they milled around upset with the smell of blood etc and and he popped them all and waited for them to die.
This is the only time he mentions using the .22 Hipower in Africa at all. It is probable those 23 were the only buffalo he shot with it, on that afternoon.

WDM Bell would have had access to family money in later years, both from his own family and also his wife's. But his safari's prior to WW1 were not lavish affairs at all by the standards of the day. I didn't mean to imply he was a rich dilettante, just because his family was wealthy. A man who wears out two pairs of boots a month is hardly one of the idle rich.
(Let us note also that Walter Bell was living in British East Africa in those days and owned land there. Apart from some trips back to Scotland to visit his sisters, and another when he went back to attempt to learn how to fly, he had invested completely in living and hunting Africa.)
His hunting was commercial, he didn't consider it recreation. He barely mentions anything about general trophy hunting, which I find very interesting about the man. Big tusks were his trophies.

He was both exploring and trying to make money out of an extremely dangerous part of Africa at that time. (If you judge a man by his rifles, you can see that he had simple tastes - no fancy walnut, no special engraving, just plain working rifles of excellent quality.)
As the youngest son I think I can read between the lines and see that he was expected to support himself. He had to sell his rifles more than once when in a tight spot as a young man.

There are many that seem to have only a cursory knowledge of his books and life.
(A lot of it only seems to be garbled accounts that I assume have been read on the internet)

I encourage you to go and read them. I recommend "Karamoko Safari" in particular.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

The whole point of my post, which seems to have gone over your head,
was just because Bell could do it with the smaller bores doesn't mean every Tom, Dick and Harry should attempt to do it.

NO silly , nothing like that has gone over my head, its just not startling or newly enlightening advice to Bell readers,
Bell gave that same advice long prior,in his - 'Wanderings of An Elephant Hunter',...cira.1923

so humble yourself in the fact, that such hunting advice-genius, is far from being uniquely & originally yours.

But according to you, Bells long established advice is obsolete & outdated....


Its apparent, we again need to repeat the facts about Bell, just for the ignorant blinkered types on AR,

- Bell did not recommend anyone use 6.5mm or 7mm.
- Bell himself wrote some 90yrs ago; that any novice hunter without the required nerve,skill & shooting discipline,
to properly place 7mm bullet to sound effect, is better not to attempt hunting DG with it.
**repeat**: Bell clearly expressed,that in his view, it was not advisable for use by low capability novice hunters.

IS THAT REALLY SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND OR REMEMBER?

AR's own encyclopaedia on Bell is now on "Ignore" for me.
Hey Peter, Don't waist any more time on him as there are far more enjoyable "hunting" things to talk about.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

Trax, I didn't know you were an expert on Bow hunting as well now !
Where did I mention anything about a slower death by arrowhead.

Regarding buff death by arrowhead,
you have clearly stated .470cal and .500cal are the faster more efficient killers of buff.
or have you flip-flopped on that view?
But you still allow clients without such largeBores, to hunt via slower death methods.

(re; me a bow expert?, they are your words not mine.)

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
...Use a large rifle and get the job done quick and affectively !

And in reference to the guided Bow hunters.

Goodhand and myself are always standing right there beside them with a 470NE or 500 Jeffery which unfortunately we sometimes have to use,....

If you really are so concerned about quick humane killing of buff, and insist large-bores are the way,
why do you allow clients to attempt to kill buff by less desirable methods?

Who stops you from stipulating that clients must use .470cal or larger, in order to effect a more rapid humane death?
Can we gather that the money from Bow hunter clients and smaller bore carrying clients,.. is too hard to pass up?
Just wondering why you compromise your own humane death-ethical values, for the sake of money.

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:

One bad experience ! I've got a bag full , how many would you like ? That was just a resent one.

A long list bag-full??...oh shit!, - so how many years have you been allowing clients to ineptly kill game,
with which you considered to be less effective poor-performing smaller bores?

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
There are too many idiots out there in Australia shooting Dangerous Game animal with light calibres...

Does that include the 'bag-full' number of smaller-bore using idiots, you have accepted money from to take BG hunting?
Seems you yourself are a complicit and inherent part of the problem by repeatedly doing business with them, ..
..and now you like to disparage,belittle & denigrate such people who have given you their business?

Thats really poor form...

quote:

Originally posted by petermayall:
Don't worry I've got plenty of interest in fools chasing DG with small bores

So you invest much of your time,energy and focus, into fools doing something you highly disapprove OF,.. Really?,..good grief.


GOODHAND BUFFALO HUNT VIDEO, we see the animal is not falling dead to the archers arrows in any quick or great way,

Why is nobody stepping in with .470cal or .500cal to more humanely finish the beast?....

You berate small-bore performance on buff, however concerning the slow effects of multiple arrows on buff,you do not express outrage.
man, talk about double standards!...

That ignore function is the way to go.

Well, I don't suppose Bell "stretched it a bit." I also don't suppose anyone from 2014 could do anything but prove they don't understand Logic, if they tried to "prove" he did "stretch it a bit." One cannot "prove" a negative and "you" just don't know what Bell did. You weren't there.
I have always thought the folks wondering about Bell, and others, falls into two categories of people. 1. Folks who just honestly wonder if the feats written are possible and are looking for an honest opinion. Usually these folks look at their self honestly and read Bell and don't understand how someone could be that good with a rifle. Or they don't fully understand the mechanics of death or some combination of the two. I have no problem with these folks. It is great to "Question all things." 2. The Self centered folks, some narcissist, and some worse, who think that the world spins on their personal ball bearing and if it doesn't exist in their world, it cannot possibly exist in yours. Lot's of number 2 in the world today. Pun intended.

Damned good post Fury.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Well, I don't suppose Bell "stretched it a bit." I also don't suppose anyone from 2014 could do anything but prove they don't understand Logic, if they tried to "prove" he did "stretch it a bit." One cannot "prove" a negative and "you" just don't know what Bell did. You weren't there.
I have always thought the folks wondering about Bell, and others, falls into two categories of people. 1. Folks who just honestly wonder if the feats written are possible and are looking for an honest opinion. Usually these folks look at their self honestly and read Bell and don't understand how someone could be that good with a rifle. Or they don't fully understand the mechanics of death or some combination of the two. I have no problem with these folks. It is great to "Question all things." 2. The Self centered folks, some narcissist, and some worse, who think that the world spins on their personal ball bearing and if it doesn't exist in their world, it cannot possibly exist in yours. Lot's of number 2 in the world today. Pun intended.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Damned good post Fury.

I agree! That is a very well written post, and is a true statement of Fury’s opinion. I agree with most of Fury’s opinion.

In my own opinion there is, one thing you and he have not taken into account is the problem that most of the old writers like Bell and others from their period is, because it wasn’t something that was a problem to them, the pink cloud was, the fact that none of them listed anything other than successes in their writings.

Because there was no rule making it illegal to not follow up wounded and escaped animals, the safaris being for the most part on foot safaris, and following up one or two wounded animals could cost them a couple of days hunting, read money lost, they simply didn’t do so.

I don’t believe they were being evasive, but simply didn’t find the fact important enough to put it to pin and ink. In fact in most cases there were no rules at all in those days in many areas, or the hunters were simply poachers who abided by no rule at all.

Today, a pro hunter who had to buy a quota, and show the animals taken, and did not follow up a wounded head of dangerous game, and it was found out, would be in serious trouble, especially if it hurt or killed someone.

So one reading today seeing only success , is led to believe these guys were claiming to have never made a mistake while shooting thousands of elephant, rhino, and buffalo. Anyone with even a modicum amount of experience in hunting Africa’s big game knows there is no such thing as a 100% kill rate over thousands of large African animals, and because of that fact, it seems to hunters today these guys were just a little windy with their accounts. I believe it is human nature to take PERFECT SUCCESS RATES with a grain of salt, and it has nothing to do with making them selves look bigger, they simply do not believe it, role their eyes, so to speak, in their criticism of some of the accounts of the old super stars of early Africa.

..............................................................My Opinion worth no more than the reader paid for it!

......................................................................