I have always thought that a group of hunters could easily get organized and lease a major concession in Zimbabwe or Botswana. You would have to hire a local and trustworthy Professional Hunter to run everything. With technology now you can easily follow up on employees. Organize it like any private club. It would not be cheap but less than some of the dangerous games hunts that I am seeing. I know people like hunting with certain outfits but it would be nice to have some input on the land that you hunting. Quotas could be difficult to divide among members. A high fence in RSA or Namibia would be easy but it would be nice to have a membership in a really good free range concession.

I’m sure I’m off on the exact amounts mentioned, but when this subject came up in the past it may have been Ray (or another of the regulars) who said the trick to securing a good concession in Africa isn’t paying the published amount of the $300K lease, but in knowing who to bribe with a $1MM so you’re chosen to pay the lease.

Ahh Africa gotta love it

The problem is from my view, it’s like buying a vacation house. I’ve looked at vacation homes in various places, but then I’ve realized that I can stay at $1,000/night hotels in the place of my choosing for way less headache than the vacation home which is stationary. I’ll spend my real estate investment funds in more lucrative fashions. This is the same concept for me. What if this year I want an elephant but there’s a 5 year wait? What if I don’t even want to go to Africa but want to do NZ and AK instead?
I’ve got enough moving parts in my life without being part of a foreign conglomerate that has to bribe officials in a third world country.
I half way wound up down that road once before but that’s another story.

It is not for everyone. Dealing with African government officials is no different than Capital Hill. They are all crooks and you have to do your research and bring value to their ability to stay in power. It can be done. There are like minded hunters out there that want more control who can afford this. People like having their own sand box. Developing habitat and implementing wildlife management plans is as much fun as hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis: Dealing with African government officials is no different than Capital Hill. They are all crooks and you have to do your research and bring value to their ability to stay in power.

They are all crooks but it is very much different.

To be fair, I don’t want to come across overly negative, just trying to be realistic. If it were that simple, it would have been done already.
As far as African governments being like the US government, no they aren’t. I’ve sat in my office in Fort Worth and tried to put out fires with government official types in Angola and Nigeria. That’s not something I care to do for “fun” and I’ll hazard a guess that government official types aren’t very different in Zimbabwe and Mozambique etc.
To be completely fair though, I’ve never shot a big game animal in Africa in my life so there may be things I don’t understand.

Cap, not sure fun is the word, but operating hunting concessions can be rewarding. It's not easy and it is difficult to manage from a distance. There are game quota expenditures, labor issues, government regulations, taxation and corporate issues, liability challenges, banking challenges, and not the least you either need a work permit or permanence in order to reside in the country of choice.

If you're interested in an annual hunting lease, there are certainly ways to accomplish that. But as I said, it isn't easy or cheap. That's why most just pay an outfitter to do all the heavy lifting. A lot happens behind the scenes that clients are isolated from - like copious amounts of headaches.

I was a shareholder of Munyamadzi in the Luangwa and our investors bought it from a syndicate of like-minded hunters. However these estates although private were expensive to run and there simply was not enough money from the limited hunting to keep the model afloat. Private lands are however extremely sought after and Paul Tudor Jones recently purchased the Mushangashi estate which was being advertised for $12,000,000

This makes the private estates of Kaindu (my lease) an extremely valuable land asset for my community.

These private unfenced reserves are a rich man's investment and whilst a good investment there are numerous costs involved and one of the major expenses is management

Your security is that you are purchasing 99-year leases from the private sector, not Government.

The other consideration is something like this virus and the property and hunting becomes dormant.

Like I said it's a rich man's game and all the private estates in Zambia are owned by the wealthy apart from me.

You would have to hire a resident PH to run the operation. I know people that would pay. There are many waterfowl clubs and quail plantations here in the south that have annual dues of over 100k. Some are much more and most all have a waiting list. These are equity membership. I looked at purchasing a farm a few years ago in South Africa. Cheaper and less risky to rent.

Just in the last few years on Internet forums, I have seen many such discussions and some ventures. I even knew a couple of the prime movers, but the idea does not seem to have flourished.

However Captain, if it is your dream pursue it!

I have been on multiple deer leases in the past and have finally evolved to just paying to hunt when and where I want and letting all the land management and camping issues be handled by the provider.
It became time to step back and let others handle the messy details while I have a cup of coffee!

Several years ago one of our local very wealthy(self made) gentleman bought (or leased) his own safari land in SA & partnered with a well known & reputable PH.
After a few years the gentleman realized that SA was just too far away to be able to keep an eye on his investment & the expenses of running it.
There was a friendly parting of ways & he sold out.
He told me there were no problems with him & the PH & that they were still friends.

The idea appeals to me. Have considered trying to put one together myself.

But what would really suck is a year like this when you just can’t get there!

Unless you plan on applying for a work permit or permanence, you're limited to 90 days every year. When you look at the operating costs it is an expensive undertaking. It is full time work 365 days a year and not all of those days are blissful and carefree.

It is very much like a vacation home with a staff and maintenance team. The expense and headaches don't go away just because you are not there.

Then there is the whole foreign ownership restrictions, banking, legal, taxes, accounting and government challenges not to mention IRS issues here at home.

Guys,

Garry Kelly told me years ago to never invest a cent in Africa that I would miss if all went upside down. Over the years from what I've seen his words could not be more true. If you are in a position to have some disposable play money to invest go for it but not if you are looking at Africa as a long term investment to turn a profit.

Mark

I call it an expensive hobby that turns into an expensive business.

Wasn’t TGT a sort of a private hunting company?

They did conduct hunts on their concessions, but all the best hunting was saved for them and their close friends.

Even then it seems it did not work.

I do not gamble but if I was to move forward on something like this it would have to be disposable income. Not looking to make money but more about me and my buddies having an epic place of our own in free range Africa. It can not be all that difficult with the proper coin.

The proper coin needed will be twice what you think necessary in order to cover bribes needed to do business anywhere in Africa.....

Never, ever, put any money in Africa, as an investment.

Pay for your hunts, where ever they are, and go home with your memories.

You will sleep better at night.

Cam Grieg who was a member here on AR had a game ranch in South Africa. He told me that he enjoyed owning and running it. He said that there was something special about being able to call a chunk of Africa yours. And he did it remotely from his home in the Los Altos Hills.

He also ran a concession in Cameroon. I think that there are places in Africa that one could run fairly cheaply, but they won’t be found in the countries that have robust hunting industries.

Sadly Cam passed away a couple of years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
I do not gamble but if I was to move forward on something like this it would have to be disposable income. Not looking to make money but more about me and my buddies having an epic place of our own in free range Africa. It can not be all that difficult with the proper coin.

Doing business offshore isn't that difficult. However, if you want to do things quickly, you will pay a price. If you have patience, they will give up. But if you pay once, you become a whore and then everyone is going to use you.

There is a saying in Africa that holds true - Whatever you think it will cost, it will be four times as expensive. However long you think it will take, it will take a lifetime to achieve. Seems to be an accurate statement as far as I know.

Gentlemen,

Africa is not that scary. I have done what you all have suggested and with pleasing results.

There are opportunities for investment but there are some countries in Africa I would not invest in. The Russians are buying up large tracts of South Africa's seafront and the properties there are becoming increasingly expensive.

As Opus mentioned you will be restricted to 90 days as a visitor or you can apply for an investment permit which awards your status.

Another option is to buy shares in an existing operation such as mine?

Perhaps a little more care should be taken when choosing wording. Not all African government officials are corrupt; I still work with many who are not, including some of the higher-ups, and I certainly was not when I was one.

But the best you're going to get in most African countries is, as suggested, to invest in an existing operation. The reason is that most countries, quite rightly, have laws in place reserving such businesses for citizens, or possibly permanent residents.

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:

But the best you're going to get in most African countries is, as suggested, to invest in an existing operation. The reason is that most countries, quite rightly, have laws in place reserving such businesses for citizens, or possibly permanent residents.

When you refer to laws in place reserving such businesses for citizens, I assume that Zimbabwe's infamous 'Indigenisation and Empowerment Act' is one such law.

Asking for a friend.

It's a fairly straightforward process. Like any hunting club in the US you first need to decide if you want to own or lease the area and secondly you need to decide is this for personal pleasure or for a commercial venture.

It is fairly easy to negotiate a lease from a current operator. However, it becomes very involved if you want ownership and to operate as a commercial venture. As stated, every country has their own laws, quirks, and challenges. If anyone is remotely interested in ownership, I would suggest that you start with a lease and learn the lay of the land first. It will save you a lot of money and headaches in the long run.

There are countries in Africa that welcome international investment and ownership and they make it fairly easy, however there is a lot of paperwork involved on both sides (IRS for one). The challenge is, make sure the country you are investing in is relatively stable - which means you have a choice of two at the moment... subject to change.

I did this hunting club (if it could be called that) many years ago in Africa. I loved it. My amigo and I had our own camp, an ancient land rover, a charge account in a little village's general store.

We got up when we wanted. Had coffee or a full breakfast .. went out hunting for a kudu or gemsbok or whatever .. or maybe just motored into town for an ice cream bar.

No guides. We might do the late morning sand grouse hunt or at last light. It did not matter much.

We hired a young guy to work in the camp washing dishes and chopping firewood. We paid him the mandated $3.00 a day and really, I am not sure, if the chap was worth that..

The most that I ever stayed in camp was six weeks and that was a couple of times. At night, after supper over a great fire and a bazillion stars overhead, we would round off the evening with a sherry and dark chocolate.

Wonderful people in the area, lots of game. All free range where our camp was. An elephant crossing sign just down the road.

Now I am getting nostalgic... Time to walk a hound ..

All the best and all - be safe.

Kanana in Botswana was for sale since around 2014 or earlier. Stopped hunting around 2016. Jason Bridger passed away in an unfortunate accident.

Huge property with lease of more land and cattle farm.

I think they were trying to sell it as a number of going concerns - Hunting lodge / resort, cattle farm etc.

Now I see that it has become a Photo safari resort - https://www.kerdowneybotswana.com/our-camps/kanana/

I’ve been the point guy in acquiring 2 cattle ranches in Africa fairly recently and been very closely involved in several O&G deals in Africa when I was younger. All were a huge headache that I doubt I would repeat. I was being paid very handsomely for my services and I don’t think I’d repeat. Paying to do it seems beyond silly to me. With the time value of money and opportunity costs, I can’t believe such a venture won’t make very expensive “trophy fees” if one does an honest accounting of what they’ve invested.
Guys like Andrew seem to have done very well but I’d hazard a guess that they’re in short supply when it comes to hiring them. In this of course, I could be dead wrong.
And I get that it’s not all about the “savings”, it’s about being a part of something. Probably the first things I did when I made real money was buy a really great ranch. The cows won’t pay for it (funny as I make a living keeping ranchers profitable), the minerals are too expensive to get to and God knows there are cheaper ways to kill a Mule Deer and an Antelope every year. But it’s mine, and I get real satisfaction from that.
I’m just being negative as I think people grossly underestimate the time and capitol requirements when they throw ideas like this out.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Kanana in Botswana was for sale since around 2014 or earlier. Stopped hunting around 2016. Jason Bridger passed away in an unfortunate accident.

Huge property with lease of more land and cattle farm.

I think they were trying to sell it as a number of going concerns - Hunting lodge / resort, cattle farm etc.

Now I see that it has become a Photo safari resort - https://www.kerdowneybotswana.com/our-camps/kanana/

Not the same Kanana.

Jason hunted Kanana which was a private ranch near Ghanzi. It was also one of the finest properties I have hunted.

Mike

The Europeans used to call such clubs “colonies.”

Worked okay for a while, until the locals took power and changed the rules.

Then not so well.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The Europeans used to call such clubs “colonies.”

Worked okay for a while, until the locals took power and changed the rules.

Then not so well.

quote:

Originally posted by Capt. Purvis:
It is not for everyone. Dealing with African government officials is no different than Capital Hill. They are all crooks and you have to do your research and bring value to their ability to stay in power. It can be done. There are like minded hunters out there that want more control who can afford this. People like having their own sand box. Developing habitat and implementing wildlife management plans is as much fun as hunting.

I agree that most, if not all, politicians are corrupt. There is a significant difference between the US and other Western nations and African nations: property rights law. People invest here with confidence that their investment is protected by law. Strict adherence to property rights from the Magna Carta and US Constitution enable the strong economies we have enjoyed. African countries have proven over and over again that your investment is subject to the whims of the politicians. Do not invest more than you can afford to lose without compensation.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Never, ever, put any money in Africa, as an investment.

Pay for your hunts, where ever they are, and go home with your memories.

You will sleep better at night.

Again, Saeed is the voice of reason.

I am surprised someone has not pointed out that it's not legal, in the two countries you mention, for a foreigner to own a large chunk of land outright. It's legal in SA but they are going to expropriate those farms first, as they did in Namibia. There is only one thing they detest more than a white landowner, and that is an "absentee" white landowner.

In Zim, you have to have an "indigenous" partner who owns >50%. If you are stupid enough to put up all the money for 49%, you can (in theory) lease a concession for 5 years renewable for another 5 years. You pay a very big sum at the beginning of the lease. Easy 7 figures US. Each year you pay the govt in full for the quota, whether you use it or not, in USD at prices they dictate approaching market rates (every wonder why the trophy fee for a buffalo is so big?). You pay the staff monthly, including a small army of anti-poaching scouts. Something breaks every week. Stuff gets stolen, especially vehicles. You need a manager on site, as well as a PH to conduct hunts.

In Botswana, there is very limited freehold land, it's mostly 99 year lease. And not to foreigners. You can get around that through a complex legal structure. If you lease a game ranch, there are no annual payments for quota, but there is a quota and there are strict game laws. To lease a concession, I believe you have to be registered as a Botswana outfitter. The one great thing about Botswana that nobody knows is it's legal for a non-resident to hunt plains game without a PH on private land.

Now for the club part: trying to do this as a wealthy person for your own pleasure is hard enough; trying to manage 10 or 20 wanna-be bwanas is going to take a mighty strong personality. Who gets which week? Who gets the one leopard and three buffalo on quota? What to do about members who do not pay their annual dues? Do not pay their trophy fees? Wound a bunch of game? Or shoot more than their share? Shoot a cow "by mistake"? Shoot a buffalo that "charged"? Drink all the booze in camp and verbally abuse the staff? Sexually abuse the staff? What to do about deceased members?

You had better be a lawyer, banker, shrink and drill sergeant all rolled into one.

In regards to owning farmland in Namibia, again, perfectly legal for a foreign national. Once the farm has received a certificate of waiver by the government, the purchase can be made. It is true that a purchase of farmland must have 51% Namibian ownership (personal or corporate), however, establishing a Trust to purchase the property allows the "investor" control over all operational aspects and the 51% shareholder becomes a silent partner with no control over the Trust. Again, it's a process, but can be done.

With current prices on Namibian farmland of around $35 USD an acre, owning a chunk of Africa will not get any cheaper.

But I certainly agree that hunting clubs can be a MASSIVE PIA.

To a degree, but the provisions of that law have largely fallen away. It's not just an African thing.

I don't know if things have changed, but back in the '70s, only a Mexican citizen could buy Mexican beachfront property. In some African countries you have to be a national to be a licensed PH. I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could find certain things in the US that are only available to citizens.

This might not be a deal-breaker, depending on what country you look at, but it is something to be aware of.

quote:

Originally posted by Cajun1956:

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:

But the best you're going to get in most African countries is, as suggested, to invest in an existing operation. The reason is that most countries, quite rightly, have laws in place reserving such businesses for citizens, or possibly permanent residents.

When you refer to laws in place reserving such businesses for citizens, I assume that Zimbabwe's infamous 'Indigenisation and Empowerment Act' is one such law.

Asking for a friend.

Russ,

I sometimes don't agree with what you post but I think you hit the nail on the head with your last post. This idea sounds like a huge PIA and a financial disaster waiting to happen.

Mark

Sounds like OPUS and the Capt ought to get together.

Hundreds of farms in Namibia belonging to absentee Germans have now been "liberated". The landowners got paid out but it's not clear that future absentee land owners will get full market value or anything close to it.

On the other hand if you are Chinese, come on down!

quote:

ou had better be a lawyer, banker, shrink and drill sergeant all rolled into one.

That statement is funny but also true for most any landowner.