Gents:
A few thoughts on the issue of tipping the PH. (Tips for the camp staff are a given and on 13 hunts have only once refused the staff tips due to poor service--however the tracker, skinner, and cook did get a good tip).

Most, if not all, of my international hunts have left me with a bit of disappointment--from PHs that do not work that hard to get the trophies, lying booking agents, PHs that try to save a dollar by having a skimpy camp, African taxidermy companies doing poor work and/or packing, etc.--and this has left me with a question (developing over the years) of what to do about tipping.

First off, I stopped buying into the bull crap of “come as a client and leave as a friend.” It seems no other group of workers on the planet are better at butt kissing to get a tip than Africans, and PHs in particular. One gent I was with was a holy born again Christian for one client and a drinking and hard swearing bloke with the next. That is well and good but where do the PHs duties end? At the end of the hunt? I have come to think not so.

PHs (at least the ones I know) get a cut of all business they do, such as taking the client to a fishing or boat charter, flight seeing service, shopping for gifts, and suggesting what taxidermy company to do the dip/pack or shoulder mounts. The other former stuff is small change but the taxidermy business I have to think about. I have had (and many friends) so many shipments arrive in poor condition with the PH saying “I have nothing to do with it” I got to thinking, “What if the PHs tip was not based on the hunt’s end but after the trophies were delivered safely to the home of the hunter?” Would things go more smoothly? I certainly don’t mean the PH has any control over air freight schedules. But I do mean the PH can have some input as to the dip/pack process, moving the “Africa Time” to a reasonable time frame, seeing the crates are properly packed and the inspections and paperwork are filled out correctly and in a timely manner.

Thinking of the above after my last trip to Zimbabwe--buffalo, waterbuck, and kudu skulls were delivered to me in a crate with absolutely no packing what so ever! The skulls rattled around throughout the process of transportation and arrived broken, teeth missing, etc. I e-mailed the PH and he asked a few questions but declined any knowledge or ability to assist with the process. The taxidermy company in Bulawayo assured me the skulls were properly packed and it was the veterinary gent who unpacked it for inspection and did not repack the crate. Bottom line (as always) it is the client who gets the shaft. I wonder if my PHs tip (in the past he has received a .460 Weatherby for one hunt and a Ziess 10x40 bino for another) was based on the proper packing, etc., if things would have got done better? He lives in Bulawayo, does business with the taxidermy company, and gets a cut, I’m sure, so why not? The company said the skulls were wrapped and strapped in tightly. They lied. Nothing was packed and no evidence of strapping or fastening of anything to the inside of the crate.

Anyway, what do you guys think? I have a trip to Australia and two to Africa in the planning and try to think to make my hunts less stressful. And, I consider a hunt this: from the time I get to the departure airport on the way over until my trophies are safely in my home.

Thanks for reading and for your input. I'm not looking for attacks one way or another, but input and suggestions, etc.
Cheers
Cal

You don't need to tip in Australia at all, anywhere.

Some local operators who post on here will violently disagree but it is not necessary. Your probably paying overseas rates anyway compared to local rates for Aussies who are far less demanding. If you want to big-note yourself go ahead, but your just ruining it for the next bloke.

I always stipulate before an overseas trip 'I don't tip' so they know before I get there. It's a cultural thing probably alien to North Americans. Nothing worse than an arse kissing PH & staff giving an 'unnatural' experience.

I cannot argue with or dispute your experiences, but I can tell you my experiences have been quite different. To say that most, if not all, of your hunts have left you disappointed . . . I would think rather than rethinking the tipping protocols it would be wise to rethink the due diligence process prior to booking.

I should add that your guide will be expecting a tip because you are American. If your happy to do so feel free but you don't have to tip restaurants or the cabbies etc here. The locals don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
I should add that your guide will be expecting a tip because you are American. If your happy to do so feel free but you don't have to tip restaurants or the cabbies etc here. The locals don't.

To add to that, it seems that expectations with tipping also work in reverse. I asked a couple of friends who work in the restaurant business if they treated Europeans (known for not tipping waiters/waitresses) any different than the American guests they were serving. Everyone of them said they put less time and effort into serving foreigners (which they clarified as someone who obviously spoke little to no English) because they knew they would get no tip or a small tip at best.

Wow Cal- In short I would say that you have booked with the wrong operation and hunted with the wrong PHs on 13 hunts!

I can honestly say that I can probably count on one hand the number of clients in 21 years that I would be hesitant to say was not a friend. I can assure you i do not get a cut back on dip/ packs fishing charters/ taxidermy etc. Likewise myself and camp staff will work equally hard for a "friend" client who we know does not tip as for a client we know is generous.I can also assure you CAL I am not the exception- most Zim PHs working for reputable guys are exactly the same! Better luck on your next hunt! Cheers Buzz

Thanks, all, for your comments. Perhaps I was not clear. My hunts have had some disappointments but they are not all negative--just not as good as hoped. There are some memorable times and that is why I keep going back!
Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Sevens:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:
I should add that your guide will be expecting a tip because you are American. If your happy to do so feel free but you don't have to tip restaurants or the cabbies etc here. The locals don't.

To add to that, it seems that expectations with tipping also work in reverse. I asked a couple of friends who work in the restaurant business if they treated Europeans (known for not tipping waiters/waitresses) any different than the American guests they were serving. Everyone of them said they put less time and effort into serving foreigners (which they clarified as someone who obviously spoke little to no English) because they knew they would get no tip or a small tip at best.

100% correct in the USA. I just hope I can save Cal and his buddys a few dollars while they are down here and they can get a genuine hunting experience and not a manufactured one.

quote:

Wow Cal- In short I would say that you have booked with the wrong operation and hunted with the wrong PHs on 13 hunts!

I can honestly say that I can probably count on one hand the number of clients in 21 years that I would be hesitant to say was not a friend. I can assure you i do not get a cut back on dip/ packs fishing charters/ taxidermy etc. Likewise myself and camp staff will work equally hard for a "friend" client who we know does not tip as for a client we know is generous.I can also assure you CAL I am not the exception- most Zim PHs working for reputable guys are exactly the same! Better luck on your next hunt! Cheers Buzz

And that's why if the money tree ever decides to drop its leaves on my land I'd book a hunt with Buzz in a heartbeat. If you are willing to put your reputation on the block in public for all to take a swing, it usually means there's substance within.

On second thought...I DID see that pic, Buzz... ;-)

Cal,

I would tend to think you may have booked with the wrong outfitters as well. I've had one bad hunt in Russia and one bad hunt in South Africa. The rest have been good to great. The two hunts I've done with Buzz have been exceptional!

I hope your upcoming outings are better.

Tipping is one of the evils of the modern world.

Having said that, comparing tipping in a hunting camp to tipping in towns is far removed from reality.

I have been going on safari to Africa since 1982.

I have had the pleasure of sharing camps with a lot of PHs and their staff. And at no time during all days I have spent in Africa, I honestly cannot recall ever having to complain about anything provided in the camp.

The service has always been exceptionaly good.

I think this is due to whoever is running the place.

Now to tips.

On a number of occasions, I have refused to pay tips at 5 and 6 star hotels, due to atrocious service, and I made my voice heard.

I have refused to pay tips in some restaurants, again, due to terrible service.

In Africa, I have always left a tip, and have always felt that it was well deserved.

I have made two trips to Africa, Zimbabwe in December of 2008, with Buzz's partner Myles for Buffalo. www.cmsafaris.com
I could not have been more pleased with the crew and the entire hunt. Myles and his trackers worked my chubby butt off for a good Bull, and made sure my skull and hide arrived here in good condition. If I am able to return to hunt dangerous game, it will be with them. I think hunting Elephant with Buzz might be too crazy... Look at what it has done to MJines.

Two years ago I went to RSA to plains game hunt with Reon & Elmay von Tonden of African Barefoot Safaris. www.africanbarefootsafaris.com
April is, in my humble opinion, THE best month to hunt in Africa. It was plains game, and I felt that the total hunt experience was far beyond my expectations.
The best thing I can say, is that I am going back in 33 days to hunt with them again.

Both made me feel like part of an extended family, Reon and Elmay call me "Uncle Rich."

I booked with both based on recommendations from friends. I think that is the safest way to go.


Rich
did I mention I am headed back in 33 days...?

I agree that tipping is one of the "evils" of the modern world as Saeed put it.

I wish that it did not come to this, and I honestly would rather pay a bit more and not have to deal with it.

Having said that, it has become an expectation in camp. The camp staff in my experience work very hard, usually much more so than those in similar occupations here in the US, and I have heard comments from camp staff folks about wondering what was going on when a previous client stiffed someone (not to me, but to the PH), usually over something that the camp staff have no control over.

To be honest, if I got bad service I would not tip. I just have problems with how much to give based on good/great service without either upsetting the apple cart for others or being stingy.

I have always had everyone react like my tip was a gift from me on any safari.

However, I also think that we (I) tend to tip too much, and typically based on the outcome of the hunt more than on the actual service rendered.

The sad part is, I have had folks here in the US who I saved their life (literally) who then end up disputing the bill and refusing to pay- and these are folks who EXPECT a tip at their place of work.

Oh dear God here we go again! All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Cal
I've stuck with the 10% rule for tipping on hunts. I've stepped on no toes yet & no one has gotten upset or felt shafted.

When you & I are in Australia in a couple of months, I'll be sticking to that same plan.

Counting the days, mate. The buffalo await all of us. Have that 600NE shooting straight!

Wow, 13 hunts where you didn't feel a tip was deserved or the PH was worth staying in touch with after the hunt.

You may either want to consider the criteria you use when booking a hunt (low cost provider, etc.) or the fact that maybe you can be a challenging client. Not trying to be mean or anything, but 13 in a row seems more than bad luck.

I got lucky on my first safari and just happened to book with a great safari company, great PH in a great area of Zim (Big5 Safaris, Ian Gibson, Chewore North). Ian is a character, but man, he really cared about you as a client and would do whatever is best for you within his control and judgement. I went back a few year later and hunted with Ian again. Same great experience. I also met quite of few other Zim PH's during both safaris and they were all of equal character and ability.

I just find it strange that you seem to have met 13 questionable PH's in a row, when I seem to have met 10 great PH's in a row.

I do wish you the best during your next safari and really hope number 14 breaks the streak.

Best,

Tim

Cal

Gary H. cant be that bad

quote:

Tipping is one of the evils of the modern world.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exactly mate .... when in Rome ....

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
All I ask is you do not ever tip in my country.

Exacly mate .... when in Rome ....

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

Do restaurants, bars, hotels, etc charge a service charge on their bills? Just trying to understand the "no tipping ever" culture down under.......

This is very limited with "service charge" on some bills but left open and rarely used. If you do receive a tip you really appreciate it AND do not expect or rely on it.

I have always felt that tipping is a bad thing for hunting in Africa. The PH/operator is charging a certain amount of money, just as WalMart does, for a product/service. I have always felt that the PH/operator should pay his staff. It shouldn't be my responsibility. I don't tip at WalMart.

Okay, I admit I tip at restaurants, bigger tips when it's some college kid.

For example, for whatever gross amount of money they are charging for a buff these days, why should one tip anything? I was always told at Big5 when they were in existence what I was expected to tip the staff. I always paid it but it always pissed me off.

Like Buzz said, you just have to search around for a better PH/operator.

Any guy that can afford to drop that kind of money playing in Africa that you apparently have I would have thought would have had their own taxidermist in Zim by now, along with a shipping agent, possible airline, truck driver, and a chain of restaurants! It only takes money to have it your burger cooked your way.

Tips? Everybody wants free money. Hell, I do.

But if you want to personally hunt with one of the current "premier PH's" who have a whole loyal following of sugar daddy's, you'd better be prepared to tip. And tip big. Right sugar?

Right Buzz? (Just kidding you.)

If you stop to think about it, when you tip the staff in a hunting camp you are really tipping the operator. If he paid the staff proper there would be no need for tip. That is for those of you who say the poor staff need the tip. Personally I think safari camps have some of the most sot after jobs in the bush. Just think about the "tracker" riding on the truck and walking all day vs back at the camp digging post holes, moving rocks etc.

Like Buzz I and almost all PH's I have worked alongside for the last 27 years work as hard for a non-tipping Aussie as we do for a big tipping Yank. I think Mr. Pappas that your words about African PH's butt kissing to get tips are inflammatory and ill thought out. Or at least I would like to know who all these PH's you hunted with were!

As Buzz and others point out, perhaps your due diligence is lacking when choosing an outfitter and PH.

You also fail to make the distinction between Outfitter and PH. Very often it is the former, not the latter in charge of shipping trophies etc.

Most PH's work very hard for their clients out of a sense of personal pride. Most PH's do not earn a great deal of money and the tips are appreciated greatly. Tipping is an American invention and has been transported to African hunting by Americans. Likewise when we go to the USA for SCI etc. we tip the cab drivers and waiters etc. - a lot more money for their time than most PH's are tipped.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I cannot argue with or dispute your experiences, but I can tell you my experiences have been quite different. To say that most, if not all, of your hunts have left you disappointed . . . I would think rather than rethinking the tipping protocols it would be wise to rethink the due diligence process prior to booking.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Wow Cal- In short I would say that you have booked with the wrong operation and hunted with the wrong PHs on 13 hunts!

I can honestly say that I can probably count on one hand the number of clients in 21 years that I would be hesitant to say was not a friend. I can assure you i do not get a cut back on dip/ packs fishing charters/ taxidermy etc. Likewise myself and camp staff will work equally hard for a "friend" client who we know does not tip as for a client we know is generous.I can also assure you CAL I am not the exception- most Zim PHs working for reputable guys are exactly the same! Better luck on your next hunt! Cheers Buzz

Well said Buzz! I too have never made a dime (or shilling) from the company, (or kick backs) on taxidermy, side trips, fishing, air charters, curio shopping, etc. I do these as part of my job, and as a courtesy & favor to the client to make his safari more enjoyable & memorable. I do not see these as a opportunity to make some extra money.

And yes, I am very happy when I see that the client has become a friend and keeps in touch long after his hunt is over. Some of my very closest friends today were former clients. In fact I know a couple of them can not afford to hunt in Tanzania ever again, but we are still very good friends to this day.

If every one else is wrong-

Did it ever occur to you that it might be you and not them?



SSR

My first thought when reading Cal's original post was 'how cynical', but after I bit I've come to think, how little due diligence you must apply to your selection of where to hunt, and with whom you hunt. I've only been on 4 African safaris, though have hunted your state nearly a dozen times as well as 5 hunts with your neighbors to the east. Other than in Canada, I honestly haven't had a really bad hunt.

I always tip to some degree or other. The only times I did not tip were when I was young and didn't even understand that tipping on a hunt was considered a proper thing to do. Ironically, the hunts when I was young and didnt tip, those PH's or guides have become true friends (at least the ones who are still alive. Those Alaskans had a nasty habit of crashing their planes, god rest their souls) and some of those friendships have lasted many years, way beyond the time when I hunted with them. Not only were the hunts very good, but so was the service afterward, from dipping/packing, to shipping, etc. I've never had a problem with how any of my stuff has arrived home, or how long it took to get here. One thing I don't do that you apparently engage in is having my animals mounted in Africa. I did that once but was not pleased with the quality of the taxidermy, it was OK but not of the same standard as I can get here at home.

I think the proper selection of who one hunts with has so much to do with their satisfaction afterward, tips notwithstanding.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
If every one else is wrong-

Did it ever occur to you that it might be you and not them?



SSR

I know Cal Pappas to be a courteous, kind and considerate gentleman, cannot see a circumstance as to where he might be hard to please or difficult to get along with. I personally have never had a "Bad" trip but I do in fact agree about PH's feigning a friendship in order to secure a more generous tip.

Steve

Cal I think one maybe two of my earlier Phs have hunted with you, both of them speak highly of you (If not mistaken identity). And IMO the one from Zim are the hardest working ph I ever hunted with. But not all people get "along".

I have given one of my Phs zero on one hunt and as much as 2500 on another and that is about maximum for me..

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
If every one else is wrong-

Did it ever occur to you that it might be you and not them?



SSR

I know Cal Pappas to be a courteous, kind and considerate gentleman, cannot see a circumstance as to where he might be hard to please or difficult to get along with. I personally have never had a "Bad" trip but I do in fact agree about PH's feigning a friendship in order to secure a more generous tip.

Steve

I do not know Mr. Pappas, but 13 for 13 is one hell of a batting record-

Thats all I am saying.

SSR

I will be 63 in September. I take it as a compliment that the PH and his wife (early thirties) I hunted with two years ago in RSA (going back with them in 32 days) that the second day out they began calling me "Uncle Richey."

They are the company, so it is a two-person operation. I like that.

Rich

quote:

To add to that, it seems that expectations with tipping also work in reverse. I asked a couple of friends who work in the restaurant business if they treated Europeans (known for not tipping waiters/waitresses) any different than the American guests they were serving. Everyone of them said they put less time and effort into serving foreigners (which they clarified as someone who obviously spoke little to no English) because they knew they would get no tip or a small tip at best.

the same goes in a hunting Safari camps. . .

I think one of the best questions to ask any outfit with which you are considering is in regard to tipping. I like to get it out of the way, and be right up front about it, before I book. I have had no PH act as though they were offended, and I also ask about camp staff.

I don't tip equipment, what I have is what is best for me. I don't expect my guides/PH to share my choice as best for them.

The folks I have met and been with in Alaska, Canada or Zim have all been willing to bend over backwards for me, and I would do the same for them.

It isn't a one way street just because I am spending money to share part of their world.

And yes I think of most of the folks I have hunted with would do something within their power for me without consideration of money.

I am very picky with whom I spend my time and money.

Many Thanks

HBH

Safari hunting should be a productive, pleasurable experience at a competitive price.If you still have not found that with those you hunted with,I suggest you try elsewhere.I think if you follow the hunt reports on AR you will get a good idea of who you would like to hunt with-which areas etc...

Cain't beleive I'm saying this, but...


...listen to shootaway.

quote:

Originally posted by BNagel:
Cain't beleive I'm saying this, but...


...listen to shootaway.

Yes,everyone should!

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
If every one else is wrong-

Did it ever occur to you that it might be you and not them?



SSR

I know Cal Pappas to be a courteous, kind and considerate gentleman, cannot see a circumstance as to where he might be hard to please or difficult to get along with......

Steve

+1

I count Cal as one of my good friends and agree with Steve in every way.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I do in fact agree about PH's feigning a friendship in order to secure a more generous tip.

Steve

I'm sure PHs are much like every other profession. It's a mixed bag. Every PH will be different and every client/PH interaction will be different. Like doctors, waiters, bankers, PHs, ect, ect you'll have clients you consider friends, clients you genuinely enjoy seeing and like "catching up" with, clients that are ameable but it's business, clients you deal with becuase it's your job, and clients you genuinely wish you don't see again. Such is life.....

Brett

I've read this with great interest as it is a pet peave of mine when a outfitter adds gratutite in whats not included, However they put it out as they expect it. read the outfitter adds you will see what I mean. I was taught by my father who owned a resturant that you shouldn't tip the owner as they are already making the profit, if you want to tip their help by all means do so as they work for wage. usually not much. If a outfitter/PH small outfit needs more money then they should charge it up front. If the outfitter has PH's working for them and you want to tip your guy that your call. Just don't ask me to give it so you can dole it out. Tipping in MHO should be personal. I personally by the time I scape up the money to go on a hunt can't afford to be overly generous, but I pay my way and if I have some extra I will gladly tip someone if I think it's deserved.