good day gents -
backup shooting can be discussed ad infinitum - the reality really is in the choice the client makes - a ph is there to keep the hunting party safe first and foremost and secondly to put the client into as fair as possible situations to make effective killing shots - what happens after that first shot is different in every single case

on elephant if the bull is still going and my client is standing there with an empty gun i will shoot - its just too valuable a trophy not to , i ALWAYS explain that to a client and i have never had a person say no to that.... that said i will NEVER brain the animal, i will simply put in an insurance shoulder shot and will do my very best to ensure that the client makes the final shot....

on an animal thats coming towards us i only shoot at the last moment and give and coach the client as much as i can so HE can make the kill.

on plains game i usually dont even carry my rifle , if we are in a dangerous game area such as tanzania zambezi valley etc i will have my tracker carry it and stay close with me , i would rather have the sticks ready and binos for quick judgement and setup ..

if a client asks for immediate backup i will of course oblige but to be honest very few do so.... but there is the odd one as in the case with this guy of marks -

one thing for sure in the few minutes we have to show a TV episode its impossible to accurately describe the vey details of each and every scenario and that can lead to some speculation as to reasons a particular PH or client did what they did -

i personally far far prefer a client to make all the shots but i say again not all clients want that !

again its a very important part of the first discussion with your PH as you drive between the airstrip and the camp and one that should be abundantly clear.

mark is an excellent PH and if you look through various video of him (and there is lots) thats not his usual style , his explanation says it all ..

at any rate thanks for watching the show ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I can certainly understand that line of reasoning Lane.

However, has the PH done his job when the client ties his hands against firing a back up shot if it is clearly required, and the wounded buffalo is lost to die a suffering death? On the one hand, it could be argued that he did because he complied with the client's wishes. However, as a professional, I would think his obligation to prevent wounded dangerous game animals from wandering the bush where it might come into contact with an unsuspecting local, would take precedence. Client's ego bruised or not!

If I screw it up, I'd have no problem with accepting the help. I haven't screwed it up to date, but if I'm lucky enough to continue hunting buff, I'm sure that day will come. Law of averages and all!!

Hi Todd,
I never saw this until 465 responded to it. I have two very different philosophies than most on this list.

To begin with...as an equine veterinarian...I watch large animals struggle to live and die as part of my daily life. I accept that hunting is a killing sport and a certain amount of pain and suffering can be an unpreventable part of it. Now...we ALL accept that it is fine for lion and hyena to kill and eat a buffalo. Ever watch that? Most have these days with NGW on TV. What about a wild dog eating an impala while it is still alive. Face it guys death which is usually not swift and pretty is natural and common for the animals we hunt. The fact that my animal did not drop to the shot is NOT an acceptable reason for the PH to shoot before we really know what is going on. In fact a good PH is going to put you in good position and then be watching closely with binos to see exactly where the animal gets hit.

Secondly...a good PH will have an idea of his clients capabilities and only let him take the shot he is capable of. And he is going to have the skills to maneuver that client into the position for that clients capabilities.

Thirdly...the PH I have mostly hunted with has never really been worried with finding wounded animals...in other words he has a lot of confidence is his follow-up/tracking capabilities.

So...if a fellow really wants it...as has been said many times...let him have his back-up shot. It is his money and can spend it any way he wants. I just don't buy into the professional obligation to shoot others game in 99.99% of the situations.

In my limited experience-one safari-we did it both ways. My PH did not back me up on my Buff, in thick riverine bush. one shot but a tense follow-up till we found him and gave him the insurance shots.

On my elephant- because we were hunting not only on Krugers border but also an International one, My PH discussed the situation with me. They had had one wounded bull get across the river into Kruger that year and as you might imagine it was a legal nightmare. With that consideration it was agreed that if the elephant got up after my shot then we both would fire till he was down. In the event I took a side brain shot, the bull dropped, as we approached he got back up-so we both went to work and dropped him again with in 10-15 meters. The communication and situational thinking made sense and made for a super hunt for me.

Conclusion--as usual -communication seems to be the key.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:
Conclusion--as usual -communication seems to be the key.

+1

Lane,

Again, I'm not taking specific objection to your point. But we cannot on one hand condem Mark Sullivan for not finishing off an animal at the absolute first opportunity, and on the other hand, state that the act of an animal dying from a less than perfect shot and suffering in the process is just fine as long as the PH stays out of the game entirely, simply to stroke the hunter's ego of having killed the animal "all by himself". Either we are concerned with as quick of an ending as possible, or we are not!

Now, going the step beyond that, there is the issue of the client who tells the PH that under no circumstance is he to shoot, even if clearly required due to a poor client shot. Should that animal get away to die a suffering death, there really is more to the equation than that. Specifically, the probability exists for a local inhabitant to run across that animal, let's call it a buffalo, and get hammered simply because the wounded and suffering buff sees the person walking down a path, and while under normal circumstances, that buff would simply run as prey usually does, he decides to take it's revenge for the pain, not knowing the local villager isn't the one that put him in this condition.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a large part of the Professional Hunter's job description was to do everything in his power to prevent that type of occurrence, even if it means taking a back up shot at a poorly hit buffalo that is likely to get away. IMO, letting the wounded animal escape and possibly hammer a local simply because it offends the hunter's ego is not cricket. Saeed has repeatedly bragged about how no PH has ever fired a back up shot at one of his buffalo. But he has now admitted that at least one has been wounded and lost. Possibly the PH didn't have the opportunity to participate but I certainly don't view his "no PH participation" statement in the same light as has been presented all these times any longer. Obviously, if he lost a wounded buffalo, if the PH had the opportunity to help out, he should have, regardless of whether the client tied his hands.

Lane, no experienced hunter wants the PH to shoot his animals for him. There are some situations, new hunter, croc near the water, etc, where a back up is sometimes requested and is even appropriate. As I've stated previously, and will once again here, I've never even brought the subject up with my PH. Reason being I assume him to be a professional with a job to do. As long as I take care of business, he'll stay out of it. If he proves otherwise, we'll talk. But I trust him to access the situation and do what he feels is necessary under field conditions. If he feels I screwed up the shot, by all means, join in. I'll never tie a PH's hands and tell him to stay out. I just don't have an ego about it.

Let's take it a step further Lane. Suppose you are on a Lion or leopard hunt. You take the shot, and it turns out to be a wounding shot. Probably fatal, but maybe not immediately. Are you telling me that you are willing to let the cat die now as a matter of course over an undetermined amount of time simply because "that's life and life is cruel with death often coming in the form of suffering"? I think not. I think someone is going into that long grass to put an end to it. Will that be YOU? Or will that be the PH? If it's the PH that goes in to clean up the mess, and ends up killing the cat in the process without your further participation, are you now going to refuse to accept the trophy and not pay the TF because you had help in the matter?

This is possibly related to the way I try to deal with people in general. When I meet someone new, I tend to trust them until they show me they can't be trusted. Because of that, I've been taken a few times, but I have learned who not to trust pretty quickly. Some take the other stand and trust no one until they've earned your trust. When it comes to hunting with a PH for the first time, I assume his professional credentials are such that I don't need to give him instructions on how to conduct my hunt. I start from the position of trusting his judgement. So far, that's been 100% and without counting again, I think I've hunted with 14 different PHs now.

If something becomes a problem, I will address it, but I give the benefit of the doubt first because he holds a professional license. So far, no PH has ever fired a shot on my hunts. Some of my shots have been a bit marginal as will happen with enough experience, but they've erred on the side of letting me finish. There have been some that I wouldn't have minded them chiming in. But they've all, so far, accurately assessed the situation in that the animal was under control to the point that I would have the opportunity to finish it off.

The one thing that hasn't happened so far is that I've not wounded and lost a DG animal. PH help or no! Is that day coming? Depends on how long I get to enjoy this pursuit. One thing that will never happen with me however is this: I'll never have to say that I lost a wounded buffalo, elephant, lion, leopard, croc, hippo, brown bear, or what ever other dangerous game animal exits that we find ourselves hunting, BECAUSE I TOLD THE PH NOT TO SHOOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BECAUSE THE ANIMAL IS MINE, MINE, MINE!!! I might very well loose an animal one day; probably will, but the PH will not have been restricted from helping on my directions.

I went on my first dangerous game hunt in 2011 and I had the discussion of back up shots with my PH on the 7 hour drive to the concession.

I basically said that he was the professional here and if in his opinion he needed to take a back up shot that he should do so and I would never second guess him on it.

When we got in the tall grass chasing my wounded bull Pierre wound up shooting right after my third shot and even though he hit a tree, he was correct to do so.

Then when we had to leave my bull wounded in the dark he was also correct as we found the bull dead laying in wait for us on the path that we took to leave that night.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I can certainly understand that line of reasoning Lane.

However, has the PH done his job when the client ties his hands against firing a back up shot if it is clearly required, and the wounded buffalo is lost to die a suffering death? On the one hand, it could be argued that he did because he complied with the client's wishes. However, as a professional, I would think his obligation to prevent wounded dangerous game animals from wandering the bush where it might come into contact with an unsuspecting local, would take precedence. Client's ego bruised or not!

If I screw it up, I'd have no problem with accepting the help. I haven't screwed it up to date, but if I'm lucky enough to continue hunting buff, I'm sure that day will come. Law of averages and all!!

Hi Todd,
I never saw this until 465 responded to it. I have two very different philosophies than most on this list.

To begin with...as an equine veterinarian...I watch large animals struggle to live and die as part of my daily life. I accept that hunting is a killing sport and a certain amount of pain and suffering can be an unpreventable part of it. Now...we ALL accept that it is fine for lion and hyena to kill and eat a buffalo. Ever watch that? Most have these days with NGW on TV. What about a wild dog eating an impala while it is still alive. Face it guys death which is usually not swift and pretty is natural and common for the animals we hunt. The fact that my animal did not drop to the shot is NOT an acceptable reason for the PH to shoot before we really know what is going on. In fact a good PH is going to put you in good position and then be watching closely with binos to see exactly where the animal gets hit.

Secondly...a good PH will have an idea of his clients capabilities and only let him take the shot he is capable of. And he is going to have the skills to maneuver that client into the position for that clients capabilities.

Thirdly...the PH I have mostly hunted with has never really been worried with finding wounded animals...in other words he has a lot of confidence is his follow-up/tracking capabilities.

So...if a fellow really wants it...as has been said many times...let him have his back-up shot. It is his money and can spend it any way he wants. I just don't buy into the professional obligation to shoot others game in 99.99% of the situations.

Lane,

Me thinks that you, I and Todd feel pretty much the same way. I speak for myself but strongly believe that Todd would agree that none of us wants a PH to shoot in 99% of the cases. The PH that always shoots immediately after I do will be getting a firm talking to. I expect the PH to assess my shot and if it is a broad side shot on any animal and he believes that only one lung is hit to jump in if it doesn't look like I will get in another before it gets out of sight. I have had more problems with PHs not backing me up under conditions that I had specified than backing me up when it wasn't needed. Twice I have had learner PHs fire when they shouldn't have. That is just a teaching situation for them. I will say that the backup shooting that I have seen has been pretty dismal. Only once was it helpful and in that case badly needed.

465H&H

A PH can't give anyone confidence. Or ability. One either has those two essential qualities or not. IMHO, so-called trigger happiness among PHs arises when their clients are missing one, or the other, or both qualities - and in that context is quite understandable. Even when the perpetrator is Mark Sullivan.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I can certainly understand that line of reasoning Lane.

However, has the PH done his job when the client ties his hands against firing a back up shot if it is clearly required, and the wounded buffalo is lost to die a suffering death? On the one hand, it could be argued that he did because he complied with the client's wishes. However, as a professional, I would think his obligation to prevent wounded dangerous game animals from wandering the bush where it might come into contact with an unsuspecting local, would take precedence. Client's ego bruised or not!

If I screw it up, I'd have no problem with accepting the help. I haven't screwed it up to date, but if I'm lucky enough to continue hunting buff, I'm sure that day will come. Law of averages and all!!

Hi Todd,
I never saw this until 465 responded to it. I have two very different philosophies than most on this list.

To begin with...as an equine veterinarian...I watch large animals struggle to live and die as part of my daily life. I accept that hunting is a killing sport and a certain amount of pain and suffering can be an unpreventable part of it. Now...we ALL accept that it is fine for lion and hyena to kill and eat a buffalo. Ever watch that? Most have these days with NGW on TV. What about a wild dog eating an impala while it is still alive. Face it guys death which is usually not swift and pretty is natural and common for the animals we hunt. The fact that my animal did not drop to the shot is NOT an acceptable reason for the PH to shoot before we really know what is going on. In fact a good PH is going to put you in good position and then be watching closely with binos to see exactly where the animal gets hit.

Secondly...a good PH will have an idea of his clients capabilities and only let him take the shot he is capable of. And he is going to have the skills to maneuver that client into the position for that clients capabilities.

Thirdly...the PH I have mostly hunted with has never really been worried with finding wounded animals...in other words he has a lot of confidence is his follow-up/tracking capabilities.

So...if a fellow really wants it...as has been said many times...let him have his back-up shot. It is his money and can spend it any way he wants. I just don't buy into the professional obligation to shoot others game in 99.99% of the situations.

Lane, Me thinks that you, I and Todd feel pretty much the same way. I speak for myself but strongly believe that Todd would agree that none of us wants a PH to shoot in 99% of the cases. The PH that always shoots immediately after I do will be getting a firm talking to. I expect the PH to assess my shot and if it is a broad side shot on any animal and he believes that only one lung is hit to jump in if it doesn't look like I will get in another before it gets out of sight. I have had more problems with PHs not backing me up under conditions that I had specified than backing me up when it wasn't needed. Twice I have had learner PHs fire when they shouldn't have. That is just a teaching situation for them. I will say that the backup shooting that I have seen has been pretty dismal. Only once was it helpful and in that case badly needed.

465H&H

Walt, 100% spot on! I don't want them to shoot when it's not necessary. But I won't tie their hands for when it is necessary.

I think you, me, and Lane are really not far off in our opinions here.

Hi Todd,

Couple of things.

1) I don't think you'll find any posts bashing MS from me...at least not in the last 6 yrs.

2) Just because the PH does not shoot at or hopefully into the exiting animal does not mean he has lost the capability finish it and keep it from hurting people eventually.

3) In regards to your lion situation...if I had shot it...I would be along on the follow-up surely with the PH. And in that circumstance...anyone that gets the shot must shoot. But at the same time...I am not opposed to giving the initial shot time to kill If I thought it was good...just like I do with an arrow shot deer.

All the talk about suffering and pain as a reason for the PH to shoot at an animal departing from the initial shot...I take exception to.

And for the record...I have never told a PH to not shoot. One of my best friends is a PH of 30 (licensed) years experience and he has taught me to think the way I do about African hunting. My occupation gives me the knowledge that some pain and suffering goes along with dying...no matter how you do it. Even a prolonged death by bullet beats most natural means of death by natural predator.

The impression I get from PHs is this:

It is the clients animal, he came to hunt it, and he should kill it.

If his first shot is not enough, the PH should get him to the animal as quickly as possible, and he should finish it off.

If the PH KNOWS the client is incapable of doing this, then he should dispatch the animal as quickly as possible.

If a situation arrises with a dangerous animal that gets wounded, again, the same form should be followed. And at any time the PH feels that the animal is likely to get away again, or puts anyone in the hunting party - client, PH, trackers etc - in danger, he should kill it.

Appart from that, the PH really has no business firing at all.

Of course, if the client requests this, then that is his choice.

I have heard great PHs saying that they look back at their hunting season, and if they had not fired a single shot at a clients animal throught the season, they feel they have done very well indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

I am a hunter cause I like to hunt and shoot and test my ability to do both. I would never even consider having someone back my shot for fear of loosing a trophy...I live and die on my own ability.

Lane,

I'm not sure why we currently find ourselves at odds here as that is really unusual for the two of us. And I did say I don't take issue with the vast majority of what you are saying on this particular topic. However, I suppose what picked my attention was the portion of your quote above that I've highlighted here.

What I'm trying to point out is that IMO, a Professional Hunter is tasked with a few responsibilities that go beyond simply pleasing the client, even though the client is footing the bill. I'll grant you that in the killing activities of hunting, there is obviously a certain level of pain the animal is going to experience prior to expiring. Your question to me asking if I've ever watched lion kill and eat buffalo and the suffering involved frankly seems a bit accusatory as if I were one of the "keyboard experts" on this forum. You know that isn't the case and it's not even relevant to the discussion.

The Professional Hunter wears many hats in conduct of the safari. Among those many tasks he is required to perform, he is the guide that puts you onto your quarry, helps judge it's acceptability as being a mature animal and worthy of being taken, etc. He is also charged with attempting to stop a charging animal should the client fail to do so (something by the way I would never rely 100% on the PH to do as I believe a man hunting DG should be prepared and capable of handling his own affairs concerning shooting, but I digress). He is also charged with preventing, to the best of his ability, a wounded and suffering animal to escape into the bush. Unless I am mistaken, the primary reason for this responsibility is to avoid having an agitated dangerous animal in a likely position to injure or kill an unsuspecting local villager, or member of a safari party for that matter as that has certainly happened in the past.

Again, without trying to be difficult Lane, the highlighted portion of your post above indicates to me that your only concern with whether or not a PH fires a back up shot would be to prevent you from loosing a trophy ... something you say you can "live and die on your own ability" with. It's obvious from this statement that you are willing to forgo the recovery of the trophy if you mess up the shot and you don't expect the PH to fire a back up simply to prevent loosing that trophy. That's fine but it isn't the point I'm making. My point has nothing to do with the PH's ability to utilize his trackers to find the wounded animal. My point has nothing to do with whether or not you recover the animal so that you can hang its horns or tusks on the wall and reminisce about the hunt. My point goes to the very real issue that a wounded dangerous game animal can very easily move off into another concession or area where your safari party is restricted from pursuing. Should this happen as a result of a poor client shot that was not backed up by the PH when it could have been, simply to satisfy the client's ego of not having any participation in killing his own animals is extremely short sighted and could easily result in someone getting injured or killed as a result. From that standpoint, I don't see the lack of participation by a PH as being the right thing to do, even though the client, as you say, "can live with loosing the animal". There are simply additional considerations to be taken account of.

quote:

2) Just because the PH does not shoot at or hopefully into the exiting animal does not mean he has lost the capability finish it and keep it from hurting people eventually.

I suppose I'm not fully understanding this second quote of yours either, especially in terms of how it relates to the 1st quote above. The two quotes seems contradictory to me. On one hand, you're willing to let the animal go without PH back up simply because collecting it isn't that important to you if the PH has to help out, but in the second quote, it's OK for the PH to "eventually" finish it off at a later date.


Again Lane, I'm not suggesting the PH fire upon report of the client's rifle. But I'm also rejecting the idea of a PH claiming a successful season based solely on the fact that not a single round was fired in back up of a client. If each DG animal shot by the season's clients were recovered without further incident, yes, that's a successful season. If no back up shots were fired, and a few wounded buffalo escaped into the bush, assuming there was a chance to prevent their escape but those chances were not acted upon, then no, I would not agree that was a successful season for the PH. Especially if one of those wounded buff actually did injure someone.

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:
good day gents -
backup shooting can be discussed ad infinitum - the reality really is in the choice the client makes - a ph is there to keep the hunting party safe first and foremost and secondly to put the client into as fair as possible situations to make effective killing shots - what happens after that first shot is different in every single case

on elephant if the bull is still going and my client is standing there with an empty gun i will shoot - its just too valuable a trophy not to , i ALWAYS explain that to a client and i have never had a person say no to that.... that said i will NEVER brain the animal, i will simply put in an insurance shoulder shot and will do my very best to ensure that the client makes the final shot....

on an animal thats coming towards us i only shoot at the last moment and give and coach the client as much as i can so HE can make the kill.

on plains game i usually dont even carry my rifle , if we are in a dangerous game area such as tanzania zambezi valley etc i will have my tracker carry it and stay close with me , i would rather have the sticks ready and binos for quick judgement and setup ..

if a client asks for immediate backup i will of course oblige but to be honest very few do so.... but there is the odd one as in the case with this guy of marks -

one thing for sure in the few minutes we have to show a TV episode its impossible to accurately describe the vey details of each and every scenario and that can lead to some speculation as to reasons a particular PH or client did what they did -

i personally far far prefer a client to make all the shots but i say again not all clients want that !

again its a very important part of the first discussion with your PH as you drive between the airstrip and the camp and one that should be abundantly clear.

mark is an excellent PH and if you look through various video of him (and there is lots) thats not his usual style , his explanation says it all ..

at any rate thanks for watching the show ...

Seems to me it comes down to having faith in the PHs judgement, which I would consider a prerequisite to hiring him to begin with. On that basis I'd have no hesitation about hiring you, if I could only afford it, and asking you to use your own judgement.

That said, I still think Mark Sullivan is an asshole.

Hi Todd,
I am working this weekend and responding on an iPhone. So it is difficult to write a page long response.

Let me try to be brief in my summary.

1) we are NOT at odds...I agree with 99% of what you write.

2) initially in many people's posts...they were advocating rapid response by the PH to end pain and suffering of the animal. I take exception to that.

I think that a good PH using his skill and taking the necessary time to get a client back onto the animal for the ending shot is NOT allowing unecessary suffering.

3) Saeeds post above sums up my feelings to the "T". And his last paragraph closely mimicks one of my first in this thread.

4) Lastly...in regards to my bolded quote above...that is not only how I hunt...but how I live my live and if I dare say why I struggle with the Obama philosophy.

I left home when I was 18, not because I did not have wonderful parents (which by the way I had the BEST) but...because I am independent. My Dad, Grandad, and Uncles raised me to be that way. I put myself through ALL of my schooling and built my own business with my own hands. I was raised to make it on my own and have all of my life. I ask for nothing from my government other than Liberty. I guess my philosophies bleed (no pun intended) over into my hunting life as well.

Again, not at odds with you at all! Just wanted to stick up for independence and the "old tradition of proper PH'ing" stated so well in Saeed's post above.

Have a peaceful Sunday my friend!!!