quote:

Once I put that first shot into the animal, it's mine, regardless of whether or not the PH chimes in. Just doesn't bother me. YMMV however.

Just an observation from someone with absolutely no experience hunting in Africa, however, I see absolutely no problem with quoted statement above.

The instant I put a bullet into an animals body, instantly fatal or simply wounded, I have bought that animal. My ego is not as important to me as seeing the animal finished off and not lost.

Maybe I wouldn't/won't be the one firing the killing shot, but I also won't be the one sick about losing an animal simply because I did not want someone finishing a job I screwed up on.

A very experienced and wise PH licensed for ~30 years in Zim and ~20 in TZ told me once: "the last thing I want to do with one of your trophies is tarnish it with one of my bullets and a proper PH has done his job best when his clients trophies are the salt and his rifle has never been fired."

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
A very experienced and wise PH licensed for ~30 years in Zim and ~20 in TZ told me once: "the last thing I want to do with one of your trophies is tarnish it with one of my bullets and a proper PH has done his job best when his clients trophies are the salt and his rifle has never been fired."

I believe that 100%!

But, it doesn't mean that one is not warranted from time to time.

I can certainly understand that line of reasoning Lane.

However, has the PH done his job when the client ties his hands against firing a back up shot if it is clearly required, and the wounded buffalo is lost to die a suffering death? On the one hand, it could be argued that he did because he complied with the client's wishes. However, as a professional, I would think his obligation to prevent wounded dangerous game animals from wandering the bush where it might come into contact with an unsuspecting local, would take precedence. Client's ego bruised or not!

If I screw it up, I'd have no problem with accepting the help. I haven't screwed it up to date, but if I'm lucky enough to continue hunting buff, I'm sure that day will come. Law of averages and all!!

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
A very experienced and wise PH licensed for ~30 years in Zim and ~20 in TZ told me once: "the last thing I want to do with one of your trophies is tarnish it with one of my bullets and a proper PH has done his job best when his clients trophies are the salt and his rifle has never been fired."

I believe that 100%!

But, it doesn't mean that one is not warranted from time to time.

Indeed! Otherwise...he wouldn't tote that iron around with him all the time.

Client stays in camp if they dont follow my rules... we have legal obligations to 'take care of business' with safety the primary concern. Even with a fleeing wounded bovine - (future) safety is a concern.

A client tried that on me once, instructions that I would never shoot, under any circumstances or he wouldn't pay for the trophy fee. He changed his mind when I explained how hard it was going to be for him to complete his hunt from the camp, alone.

All was fine and very friendly of course - I guess he had some bad experience somewhere??

I believe that I have screwed up, if I have to shoot a clients animal for them - not the other way around.

Oh what a nice surprise to come back to. I have just finished my first hunt of the season and want to check up as to what has been happening and I find that a bunch of bored people in their comfy living rooms are now telling me how to hunt. You guys have some very short memories. This hunt was conducted not very long after a very good friend and fellow company PH Owain Lewis was tragically killed by a buffalo in the same area. Not long after that another good friend Anthony Howland had is arm blown off by a client. Don't forget the other happenings and deaths to Zimbabwean PHs in other African countries. Well excuse me for be a bit jumpy and shooting the buffalo especially after we had waited 20 so minutes for it to die and when we walked up it was still standing on it feet. The client was having a bit of difficulty in seeing how it was facing. Also right behind the buff was a nice thick bunch of riverine which would not have been nice following a wounded buff into. The client HAD asked me previously if I felt the need to shoot to go ahead. When we saw the buff it was only about 25 yards away as well.

The croc story I am sure you did not see what all transpired before that. We had a boat come with in 100 feet of us to watch what was happening. So by the time I got the boat to move on we had a very wide croc and if a croc gets back in the Zambezi then you have very little chance of seeing it again. Again the client asked me to back him up as its a very expensive trophy to loose. Plus a few little bullet holes in the skin where I was shooting is very easy to fix by a taxidermist.

Thanks you to all the guys who understand how hunting works and how tough our job is. Nothing more fun than tracking a wounded animal for 3 or 4 days for a client who insisted that you don't back him up under any circumstances.

Touché.

Well stated Mark.
Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Vallaro:

how tough our job is.

I might be wrong but I can only imagine two cases in which I think it is normal for a PH to shoot.One is to prevent harm to himself or the client(if the client values his life ).The other is to stop an animal that is evidently wounded and trying successfully to escape.From I understood in the initial post the animal was not trying to escape.

Todd,

Are you suggesting that all hunters need to have their PHs kill their buffalo?

A la Mark Sullivan?

No thanks.

I hunt, and I do accept that if I hunt long enough, I will miss and I will wound an animal.

It is part of the game.

Back to this trigger happy PHs.

I have a sneaky feeling that it has to do with being on camera.

It seems more PHs are seen shooting on TV shows than we ever heard of before.

i have seen far to many wounded missed or wounded animals caused by poor shooting to pass any sort of judgement on a fellow, especially one on television. only on the internet are people 110% terrific shots

No Saeed, we are just seeing more safaris other than our own via the numbers of cameras in the bush these days.
Lane, not trying to box, but a highly respected major league pitcher named Nolan Ryan once said "Well, my idea of the true perfect game is when I strike out all 27 batters I face and the guys behind me never have to make a play" But I bet he never got pissy when an outfielder made a diving catch to save one of his 7 no hitters!

No Saeed, I'm not suggesting that at all. But I view your repeated claims of how no PH has ever needed to fire a back up shot on your hunts with a bit of skepticism now that I know there has been at least one time where his help was needed.

Ego aside, a wounded buffalo going off to die a suffering death is bad enough. Having a wounded buff in the bush where it can potentially hammer a local is worse. Yes, those things will happen given enough time. But restricting the PH from helping out under circumstances where this is likely doesn't seem to be the smart thing to do. Seems more ego driven to me.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I might be wrong

Might be? try every friggin' post ace...

My, my aren't we a little testy today!! Dave you "assume" a lot and don't pay attention very well. I really don't think folks care how many crocs you and I have killed or how many we have seen killed. Sounds like an ego thing on your part maybe or just a crock?

I simply said I saw an episode of TAA, made an observation and asked folks here to chime in on their thoughts and ideas.

I didn't say I aggreed or disagreed with PH backup. I didn't berate TAA or you on the subject. Didn't say whether I use PH backup or not. FWIW, that subject is between me and my PH on each and every hunt. Simply MY choice. I don't/didn/t tell the PH folks how they should hunt as inferred either.

To call a man a "fool", as you did, for not subscribing to YOUR way of thinking is rather vain to say the least. The "My way or the Highway", is also being used by our current (Prez???) and we all see how that is working out, huh?

Oh by the way Dave, thanks for wishing me "bad luck" on my next Croc hunt, that's very Classy, sir.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Larry, on croc, yes. I assume I have shot more of them, and certainly seen more of them in person shot than you. My thoughts are my opinion, based on quite a bit of experience. Of course,as in most TAA issues, you have a problem with that. Please Bwana, by all means, tell your PH no backup shots for you, under any circumstance. Fine by me. May you enjoy a HAPPY SPLASH as your croc enters the water and quota sheet at the same time.

quote:

Oh what a nice surprise to come back to. I have just finished my first hunt of the season and want to check up as to what has been happening and I find that a bunch of bored people in their comfy living rooms are now telling me how to hunt. You guys have some very short memories. This hunt was conducted not very long after a very good friend and fellow company PH Owain Lewis was tragically killed by a buffalo in the same area. Not long after that another good friend Anthony Howland had is arm blown off by a client. Don't forget the other happenings and deaths to Zimbabwean PHs in other African countries. Well excuse me for be a bit jumpy and shooting the buffalo especially after we had waited 20 so minutes for it to die and when we walked up it was still standing on it feet. The client was having a bit of difficulty in seeing how it was facing. Also right behind the buff was a nice thick bunch of riverine which would not have been nice following a wounded buff into. The client HAD asked me previously if I felt the need to shoot to go ahead. When we saw the buff it was only about 25 yards away as well.

The croc story I am sure you did not see what all transpired before that. We had a boat come with in 100 feet of us to watch what was happening. So by the time I got the boat to move on we had a very wide croc and if a croc gets back in the Zambezi then you have very little chance of seeing it again. Again the client asked me to back him up as its a very expensive trophy to loose. Plus a few little bullet holes in the skin where I was shooting is very easy to fix by a taxidermist.

Thanks you to all the guys who understand how hunting works and how tough our job is. Nothing more fun than tracking a wounded animal for 3 or 4 days for a client who insisted that you don't back him up under any circumstances.

Mark's post reminds me of why I consider so much of the armchair quarterbacking of TV shows on these forums as absolute drivel. We weren't there, we were not privy to what happened, making inane comments on the prowess of other hunters does not elevate our own.

Thanks Mark for the "other side of the story".

I, personally, have asked the PH to do as he feels necessary if there is a threat to me, him or anyone else in the hunting party. I've also asked him not to shoot if it isn't necessary. While I prefer to shoot my own animal, I wouldn't be offended to hear his rifle go off if, in his assessment, I made a bad shot or lives would be threatened. I have yet to hear a PH's rifle fire on an animal that I have shot. But, while my wife might want the buffalo to win, I don't think it is an ego thing to want to survive, see everyone safe in the hunting party and come home to aggravate her some more!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I might be wrong

Might be? try every friggin' post ace...

it's true!!

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:

... I wouldn't be offended to hear his rifle go off if, in his assessment, I made a bad shot or lives would be threatened.

Larry
I re-stated my post several times after the first comment. I would re-read it. I was VERY clear that it is a "to each his own situation", but I feel my comments have weight based on experience. And yes, I know that there are guys here with FAR more days under their belt than I. May your next, or first croc's head explode from a perfectly placed shot without even waking your snoozing PH up from his nap.There you go.

I like a PH that is a little crazy.I think that they make the best people.I naturally seek them out.They are strong believers in common sense as a preventative safety tool.Also people who enjoy life and who are free.

???? Dave - There is Professional help available, maybe you should check it out?????

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Larry
I re-stated my post several times after the first comment. I would re-read it. I was VERY clear that it is a "to each his own situation", but I feel my comments have weight based on experience. And yes, I know that there are guys here with FAR more days under their belt than I. May your next, or first croc's head explode from a perfectly placed shot without even waking your snoozing PH up from his nap.There you go.

OK Larry, you get the last word.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Yes, back-up OK'd and requested if needed by the client. Only a fool will not ask for back-up on croc especially. I have shot several, and I DEMAND backup, needed or not.

Folks the above post answered the original question, so why two pages still asking the same question, or arguing with the answer?

Like Dave I would want a back-up if shooting croc. One can make a killing shot on any reptile and still loose him if he gets out of sight before he dies, especially one close to water.

On a buffalo I hunt with double rifles and I have zero problem with a PH putting in a follow-up after I fire my second shot, because I always follow-up my own shot with the second barrel. I expect the PH to put one in while I reload, and if the buff is still on his feet I will put two more in him. I’ve always had this conversation before hunting starts, and additionally I tell the PH I have no problem with him shooting when he thinks it is necessary to avoid a problem. You need to understand the PH’s license is at stake if he allows a wounded animal kill someone because he didn’t at least try to stop it.

Saeed is a special case, because no matter the range, Saeed rarely fire more than one shot and the buff is DRT! In his case I see his reluctance to allow a PH shooting routinely as a matter of course!

Of course none of this post is saying others should do as I do! Do it how ever you want, you are the one paying the bill!

...................................................................Wait till I get my foxhole dug! .........

Well said Mac and at the end of the day this topic needs to be addressed at the very beginning of the safari. The PH can override the decision if he feels that his participation is warranted.

I would love to hear more from our PH friends on this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I would love to hear more from our PH friends on this topic.

Dave,

You stated that you want to be backed up on croc. Then the PH would have to shoot almost simultaneously and the set up has accommodate this request. Often shots on big trophy croc are long and a PH and his double are of very little value.

I think the topic is more directed at DG and here the client and PH have to talk about the possible scenario.

From what I have seen in Zim is that many a PH will back up on elephant and mainly because wounded elephant will cover great distances.

On buffalo there is no reason to back up unless the animal charges or because of some other mitigating circumstance.

Lion and Leopard on foot or follow up is fairgame.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
I would love to hear more from our PH friends on this topic.

Absolutely!

Get the master Ph of killing his clients buff himself, Mark Sullivan!

Just a question here.

Is a hunter, that requests his PH to back up his shots, less of a man than those that don't?

Remember folks, as a group we are supposed to be supporting each other to try and save hunting, yet from a few of the responses, it seems like some people believe that ANYONE that has no problem with their PH backing them up, is less of a hunter or possibly human.

What happened to the concept that the person paying for the hunt has the right to do things as they choose?

Each hunter has his own choice to make as far as I am concerned.

Bloody hell, Mark Sullivan seems to shoot a lot of his clients buffalo anyway.

But, I think a Ph with experience should be able to see if his client is capable of killing his own animals.

quote:

I tell the PH I have no problem with him shooting when he thinks it is necessary to avoid a problem. You need to understand the PH’s license is at stake if he allows a wounded animal kill someone because he didn’t at least try to stop it.

Seems like sound reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just a question here.

Is a hunter, that requests his PH to back up his shots, less of a man than those that don't?

Remember folks, as a group we are supposed to be supporting each other to try and save hunting, yet from a few of the responses, it seems like some people believe that ANYONE that has no problem with their PH backing them up, is less of a hunter or possibly human.

What happened to the concept that the person paying for the hunt has the right to do things as they choose?

Absolutely right!

I haven't read the whole 70 odd posts but guess there's probably a few there with the old stuff about 'I won't pay the trophy fee if the PH shoots under any circumstances' etc etc etc but I've yet to come across the client who's willing to go it alone on a follow up of a wounded big 'n ugly...... They always expect the PH & trackers to join in then (as indeed they should) so why discount the PHs input and prevent such follow ups!

More generally. It's not particularly uncommon for clients, especially but not always inexperienced clients to ask the client to either shoot on report (as soon as he hears the client's shot go off) or put in a follow up shot if he feels it might be necessary.

Had a PH back me up once on a Sable bull based on my poor shot on our previous stalk for Eland.
We both had a good laugh when we found he had clean missed it.
Cost him a big steak back in Harare.
IMHO if a Professional Hunter feels he has to be involved then that's his professional right.
I don't necessarily have to like it but a clean kill is always paramount.

quote:

I tell the PH I have no problem with him shooting when he thinks it is necessary to avoid a problem. You need to understand the PH’s license is at stake if he allows a wounded animal kill someone because he didn’t at least try to stop it.

Re-quoting MacD37 for a second time, the back up shot IMO is reserved for DG only and it serves as a preventive measure as Mac has stated.

Wounded PG is for the client to take care of and any such wounded animal will be followed until retrieved or lost. Pole Sana if it is lost!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Just a question here.


What happened to the concept that the person paying for the hunt has the right to do things as they choose?

I did always abide by that, but I never did abide by or condone any animal suffering because of poor shot placement. If I heard that drum-like whump of a gut shot, or the sharp crack of a broken leg or saw such evidence of a poor shot, I threw lead until it was down. Period, my rules. Then it was back to the range to check for possible problems.

When I went to Zimbabwe in 2010 I hunted with Ian Gibson and was looking for buffalo. I had the backup shot discussion with Gibbo right away on the drive from Tafika to Kachoe and despite my telling him to back me up right away if things didn't look right, he just laughed at me and told me nto to worry, that I would do fine and there would be no need for a backup shot. As luck would have it I shot my bull at a bit over 100 yards and a single shot was all it took.

Now, I don't doubt for a second that if I cocked it up Gibbo would have been right there banging away if needed. More important than his willingness to help out as needed was his demeanor and using his years of experience to calm a young guy down who had spent the last two years waiting to go on the hunt of a lifetime and was worried about messing it up.

Confidence is the most important thing a PH can give you.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I can certainly understand that line of reasoning Lane.

However, has the PH done his job when the client ties his hands against firing a back up shot if it is clearly required, and the wounded buffalo is lost to die a suffering death? On the one hand, it could be argued that he did because he complied with the client's wishes. However, as a professional, I would think his obligation to prevent wounded dangerous game animals from wandering the bush where it might come into contact with an unsuspecting local, would take precedence. Client's ego bruised or not!

If I screw it up, I'd have no problem with accepting the help. I haven't screwed it up to date, but if I'm lucky enough to continue hunting buff, I'm sure that day will come. Law of averages and all!!

Todd,



465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by BigUglyMan:

Confidence is the most important thing a PH can give you.