I would like a discussion around this..

Seems like this is the norm now in the african hunting industry...I am not accusing somebody for this practise..but...

I realize that this is probably the only way to go for taking leopard, but personally I would not do it for lion..

Hunting lion on foot must be an awesome experience...and my thinking is that it is the only right way of doing it..

If you dont have the stamina to do it the right way, well then dont...to me hunting is hunting and I love the challenge.

Hunting dangerous game could be precisely that....possibly dangerous....are we doing things to easy these days..?

It is not as simple as that at all.

I have been hunting lion and leopards for over 30 years, and all the ones I have shot were either on bait or close to bait.

But, I have also followed lion tracks for hours on end, but was never successful in catching up with them.

In some areas, it is impossible to track lion at all.

The same goes for leopards.

I have seen a number of them while walking, they were either females, or relatively young ones.

Hunting a lion or leopard from a blind is not easy and is not a guaranteed success.

I have never hunted big cats but I grew up with stories of my dad hunting tigers and leopards in India in the 1950s.

Big cats - particularly the ones near human habitation that feed on livestock - are extremely smart. They do not just walk up to the bait and start feeding. The hide has to be perfect. If it is a bit obvious, the animal will stalk the hide to check it our or it will just avoid the bait.

My dad had an experience of a leopard that spotted his hide in a relatively open area where it had killed a bullock. It sneaked up behind him and then growled into his ear before departing!

The thrill, excitement and sheer adventure of such hunts is hard to imagine. The Namibian style of hunting open country leopards with trackers and a vehicle also looks very exciting. The animals always seem to charge.

In the old days in India tiger hunts with elephants and a bunch of beaters was common. Again not as easy as it seems, though success rate was high. The beat had to be perfect or the animal would circle around & break the line of beaters. Tigers often charged the elephant.

I am not sure if I will ever have the opportunity to hunt a leopard but I sure would love to. Lion - only if I won a $5 million Lotto.

Having the stamina to "do it the right way" is an interesting concept. For elephant hunting, you may need marathon runner type stamina to be able to walk 15- 20 miles per day for days on end. For baited leopard, you may need the mental stamina required to to sit silently in a blind for hours on end. The leopard I shot last year was taken 9 hours after I first entered the blind. I would have much rather walked the 15-20 miles - it would have been much easier to do than sit silently for that long a time. Mental toughness can be as difficult or more difficult for some than physical toughness. So, "doing the hunt right" may look very different to a long distance runner than a chess player. One last point, if you feel you need to walk for cat hunting, you do have the option of hunting leopards with dogs. As I have not done this nor have I hunted lions, I cannot express any experience based opinions on either.

You have some valid points there Admiral..perhaps it boils down to each ones abilities AND the hunting that is offered...

Personally I would prefere hunting lion on foot though..

Done both, spent about 80 hours in 4 trips for leopard before I took one on 5 trip. Tracking lion was truly exciting but no shot opp.

quote:

Originally posted by subsailor74:
The leopard I shot last year was taken 9 hours after I first entered the blind.

Great. And I was finally getting excited about my third attempt at a leopard this coming August. Now, with my teacup size bladder, I have to haul a pee jug in there too.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I would like a discussion around this..

Seems like this is the norm now in the african hunting industry...I am not accusing somebody for this practise..but...

I realize that this is probably the only way to go for taking leopard, but personally I would not do it for lion..

Hunting lion on foot must be an awesome experience...and my thinking is that it is the only right way of doing it..

If you dont have the stamina to do it the right way, well then dont...to me hunting is hunting and I love the challenge.

Hunting dangerous game could be precisely that....possibly dangerous....are we doing things to easy these days..?

Lion on foot is a near impossible task if you plan to hold any standard for the lion to hunt. Age, pride male or not ect.

Ambush hunting an apex ambush hunting predator is not an easy task.

Lion tracks are only visible in soft sand - why 99% of pictures you see of lion tracks with a bullet next to it are take on sandy roads. In grass or hard soil lions tracks are not visible.

Mike

Let us know how that works out for you, Pondoro.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Cazador humilde:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by subsailor74:
The leopard I shot last year was taken 9 hours after I first entered the blind.

Great. And I was finally getting excited about my third attempt at a leopard this coming August. Now, with my teacup size bladder, I have to haul a pee jug in there too. QUOTE]


I too have a small tank, and it was pure agony sitting that long - just remember to pee quietly! It also helps if your PH has one of those blinds lines with charcoal so you scent doesn't get out.

While I was in the Luangwa valley on a buffalo and plains game safari I was told a story by my PH about a hunter that I knew personally about hunting lion from a blind (hide) !

It seems they shot a hippo and pulled him out of the river with the hunting car and opened him up slightly to give the lions access to the innards. They then built a blind about 40 yds from the hippo. In about two days the lions started feeding on the bait, the hunter and PH snuck into the blind to wait for a big male.

The lion group was lionesses and cubs and a couple of young males. They waited all afternoon, and when it started getting dark the lions didn’t leave but laid down all around the blind to sleep with the tummies full of hippo. It got very dark with no moon, and the lions never left. The PH laughed and told me “when you see your friend ask him about that night”! It seems my friend the client hunter wanted to leave the blind and climb a tree near by. The PH told him “well I guess you can try it, but I don’t think you will make to the tree!”

They spent the whole night in that blind with the lions all around them afraid to cough, of sneeze!

Later the next year I saw my friend, and told him the PH told me to ask him about that night! His response was immediate ANGER with his eyes flashing like a wild man! He said “That SOB may think that was funny, but I can tell you that was a damn dangerous night, and I can tell you I will never hunt with that SOB again!

SO! The fact that you are in a grass hide doesn’t necessarily take the danger out of hunting lion over bait!

................................................................

quote:

Lion on foot is a near impossible task if you plan to hold any standard for the lion to hunt. Age, pride male or not ect.

....Unless you go to RSA where one can be had (guaranteed), on foot( usually tracking a short distance from a fresh kill), lone male, without breaking a sweat ... or a fart.

Interesting concept. I'll bet you save a lot of trophy fee money!

Hmmm....what is most important....the thrill of the hunt or collecting a trophy the easiest way..??

That said...of course shooting from a blind can be both tricky/potentially dangerous, no question about it..

There is NOTHING wrong with shooting cats from a blind or machan! NOTHING! From a game management perspective, I would much rather have hunters shooting at relaxed, relatively stationary animals. There are enough wounded cats already in the hunting world without people taking rushed shots and partially obscured or fleeing animals.

I think folks until they've actually hunted lion or leopard from a blind or machan misinterpret the reason for using this method of hunting. You don't hunt from a blind because it is physically easy or that it's safer. You hunt from the blind because it is far more productive and in today's lion hunting we are looking for the "right" lion and it is far easier to shoot the "right" lion when you've had a good look at him from your blind.

Tracking sounds exciting and I'm sure it is if you have sandy soil where tracking is easy such as in the Kalahari. The fact is that a lot of the lion's habitat is not conducive to tracking and even if you track the lion down you still have to get a very good look at him to determine his maturity before he decides to vacate the area.

I hear often heard that folks think and some that have done it feel that hunting from a blind is tedious and even boring. I will admit if the cats are not cooperating the hunt can mentally work on you but once the cat comes and you know you have outsmarted him it is well worth the hours in the blind. If a hunter doesn't think it is exciting when a big cat appears at your bait he is either dead or nearly so.

Mark

While I don't have nearly as much cat hunting experience as many hunters, I have hunted both lions and leopards over bait from blinds, and also by tracking, so perhaps my own limited experience will lend a small bit to this discussion.

Leopards - I hunted my very first cat over bait and it was a very interesting hunt. We shot and hung 4 baits, and after about a week, we got a good hit on one. We were hunting in an area (Deka) that, at that time, hadn't been hunted in years, so we quickly built a blind and hunted it the same evening. The tom actually came walking up to the blind to check it out before the sun even set, with us inside. That was an interesting moment! Then, he came back just at dark and I was able to take a beautiful, large tom leopard on my very first night of sitting. All in all, a fascinating hunt. The view of him tumbling from that limb, limp and upside down, against the dusk sky is forever etched in my memory.

My 2nd leopard was taken by tracking in the Kalahari. We were somewhere way out in southwestern Botswana and our first morning out of camp, we came on 3 lions less than a mile from camp. Nothing we wanted to shoot, but damn those lions charging up to the truck and intimidating us was exciting as hell. A couple hours later, we came upon a large leopard track and my PH, Cecil Riggs, asked if I wanted to shoot my leopard on the first day. I thought he was full of BS and told him so. His reply was that this was a good cat and if I wanted it, we'd have it in the truck before dark. As things turned out, we put a couple bushman trackers on the ground and off they went, with us following along in the cruiser. When one would get tired, he'd whistle and someone else would jump off the truck and take his place. With fresh legs always on the ground, it only took a few hours of tracking before we caught up with the tom. I'll never forget the sight of him trotting up a sand dune out in front of us, when we first laid eyes on him. From that point on, it was exciting and interesting, but not terribly sporting. I'm glad I did it though, once. So, for those who have hunted leopards for days on end, all I can say is "Leopards are easy". Two days, two big Toms!

Lions - I first hunted lions over bait in Charara. It was another interesting hunt, but as much as anything because we used a couple buffalo for bait as for the lion portion of the hunt. Who wouldn't want to shoot a couple buffalo for lion bait? That was actually the most exciting portion of the hunt, especially since Roy Vincent and I nearly got skewered by an enraged cow that came blasting right between us! We had one bait get hit but the lion wasn't mature enough for Roy's taste, so we passed the shot and never had a chance at a better lion. Sneaking into the blind on foot in the predawn darkness with lions roaring and making all kinds of racket was exciting and scary as hell. We also had the opportunity to track a pride that raided our camp in the middle of the night, knocking stuff down in the kitchen and butchery. Following them in the rocky, tall grass of Charara was a bit beyond 'exciting'. We caught up to the pride in very thick cover at very close range, but couldn't see the males mane well enough to determine if he was shootable before they all buggered off. To say the least, it was EXCITING. After 15 days and no good lions on bait, but lots of excitement at each of our baits, we gave up and went back to Matetsi for a short elephant hunt where we had an exciting hunt for an old broken tusk (non-trophy) bull. A close confrontation with him was a great salve for not getting a lion. Even though no lions were shot, 2 buffalo and an elephant made it a very successful safari.

My 2nd lion hunt (hopefully not my last) was on the same Botswana safari where I shot leopard #2. On the 23rd day of a 24 day safari, we cut some lion tracks in the soft soil of the Linyanti swamps. We set out on foot, following the pride across grassy plains and through thick palm islands where the visibility was terrible. We fully expected to come upon the lions in the thick stuff, so the tension was palpable. Finally, after several miles on foot, we came upon the group of 4 lions in a short grass area. At my shot a lioness charged right up to us. Cecil covered her while I shot again and it was all over except for the celebration back at camp. Needless to say, after 23 days (2 safaris and 38 total days looking for a lion) it was a huge relief to finally have a lion in the salt. We saw several males that had much better manes and which were older lions that would meet today's criteria, but the excitement of this hunt could never be surpassed. This hunt took place 25 years ago, when standards were different. Today I would not shoot, or be allowed to in some countries, the lion I took, but I'm very glad to have had that opportunity back in 1989.

So, I've had the chance to hunt both cats, both ways. I would not change a thing with any of the hunts. Both ways are interesting and exciting in their own right. If I have a future opportunity to hunt either cat, either way, I'd jump all over it without hesitation.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I would like a discussion around this..

Seems like this is the norm now in the african hunting industry...I am not accusing somebody for this practise..but...

I realize that this is probably the only way to go for taking leopard, but personally I would not do it for lion..

Hunting lion on foot must be an awesome experience...and my thinking is that it is the only right way of doing it..

If you dont have the stamina to do it the right way, well then dont...to me hunting is hunting and I love the challenge.

Hunting dangerous game could be precisely that....possibly dangerous....are we doing things to easy these days..?

I am thinking the way the Swedes are hunting wildboar. They hunt(shoot) from a small wooden hut where there has been thrown bread and the trees has been tarred. They just sit and wait until the pigs easts the bread and boom!.

It´s a way to shoot a pig...but to to call it actual hunting might be a little too much.

I have shot boar from a Swedish blind, but a stalk in my optics are true hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I would like a discussion around this..

Seems like this is the norm now in the african hunting industry...I am not accusing somebody for this practise..but...

I realize that this is probably the only way to go for taking leopard, but personally I would not do it for lion..

Hunting lion on foot must be an awesome experience...and my thinking is that it is the only right way of doing it..

If you dont have the stamina to do it the right way, well then dont...to me hunting is hunting and I love the challenge.

Hunting dangerous game could be precisely that....possibly dangerous....are we doing things to easy these days..?

If you want to do it the old way this is my advice (might be totally worthless to you)

Book a plains game hunt in the Save or in Bubye. Tell the ph you want to really stalk a male lion on foot and that is your main focus. Tell him that you will tip the ph and the trackers higher than norm for their efforts.

Both the places are full of lions. Take you rifle and a iPhone. Then try and do your hunt and see if you can manage to take a picture of a good lion that you would shoot - old enough, male, non pride.

This will save you around $100K and give you an idea if it is even possible or worthwhile.

Mike

Besides experience , it's also about results

Both my lion and two leopard were shot off of baits. Both leopard from a blind and the lion not from a blind.

I've only been on one Lion hunt. During that hunt we baited, we tracked, and ultimately ended up killing an appropriate Lion on foot in the open face to face at 40 yards.

All three of the experiences were worth the cost of admission.

Here's a simple clip of how "boring" it can be sitting in a ground blind (we did not do elevated blinds or Machans). That's if you consider being 7 feet from Africa's Apex predator boring.

http://youtu.be/FqnxRZxYL_Q

As far as tracking, we did that for about 1 1/2 kilometers at about a pace of three steps every 2-3 minutes. We still lost the track and had to double back multiple times. As stated by others, unless you are in sand you will not find much spore to follow.

Ended up killing the Lion by intercepting his movement by the sound of his calls. Standing in the open and facing a large male Lion who is looking straight at you with his tail nervously twitching back and forth is certainly a memorable experience.

Bottomline, unless you are hunting Burkina Faso where baiting is illegal, sitting on bait is the most successful method.

We tracked lion in Namibia and had an exciting hunt. Very exciting. We baited them just get tracks to follow.

Hunted leopards with dogs and that was a rush for sure. I have never had 95% boredom followed by 5% terror when we cornered the leopard.

I am not much of a sit and wait guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Bottomline, unless you are hunting Burkina Faso where baiting is illegal, sitting on bait is the most successful method.

I would go one step further and say it is the best method from hunter safety and from lion selection and harvesting.

As one who has hunted and killed a lion in Burkina. I wish Burkina adopted and allowed for baiting.

There is this kind of marketing idea that ph hunters and their paid along (always in shape and great shot) clients with these amazing trackers can find a track and follow a lion like they were following elephants in the zamebzi valley and track for 10 miles and kill a lion. That along all the south african guys shooting pen raised lions in small enclosed areas that have never hunted anything and the hunt and the amazing track done before lunch or definitely before sundowners has sold this BS idea. Go watch Mark Sullivans fake lion hunt in South Africa and you can get the made up experience. Best to go to South Africa day for 10 days and walk around for 9 days and ask the lion be released on day 10.

I think 4 days into my wild non baited lion hunt I figured out the only 3 ways to kill a wild lion ( I am leaving out using dogs, flying in helicopters, traps ect)

(1) food - baiting
(2) sex - calling
(3) arrogance - the lion is the apex predator and with that comes arrogance. You don't find that in a leopard. That is why few are ever killed off bait.

Arrogance and chance encounter on the roads where lions walk will give you an opportunity to shoot one. This encounter normally take place right at daylight or dusk (invested in illuminated swarovski reticle) and the arrogance of the lion is after he is bumped he will scoot into the bush but he will stop and take a look at what bumped him. That is when he is shot and killed.

The idea that someone can follow a lion not called to bait but just of a spore and find him and them kill him is BS. Most of the chance wild lion kills are off a bait (natural or placed) or pure randomness. But the idea someone can track a lion like a elephant or a herd of dagga boys in my view is pure BS. Kind of like South Africa's cattle raiding lions.

Mike

I have hunted both ways. I have been lucky enough to take 2 lions via tracking. It is extremely exciting, tense and physically demanding.

It, perhaps , takes more mental toughness to sit in a blind for hours. It doesn't particularly bother me as I an used to sitting for hours hunting white tails .

I hate checking baits all day.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Bottomline, unless you are hunting Burkina Faso where baiting is illegal, sitting on bait is the most successful method.

I would go one step further and say it is the best method from hunter safety and from lion selection and harvesting.

As one who has hunted and killed a lion in Burkina. I wish Burkina adopted and allowed for baiting.

There is this kind of marketing idea that ph hunters and their paid along (always in shape and great shot) clients with these amazing trackers can find a track and follow a lion like they were following elephants in the zamebzi valley and track for 10 miles and kill a lion. That along all the south african guys shooting pen raised lions in small enclosed areas that have never hunted anything and the hunt and the amazing track done before lunch or definitely before sundowners has sold this BS idea. Go watch Mark Sullivans fake lion hunt in South Africa and you can get the made up experience. Best to go to South Africa day for 10 days and walk around for 9 days and ask the lion be released on day 10.

I think 4 days into my wild non baited lion hunt I figured out the only 3 ways to kill a wild lion ( I am leaving out using dogs, flying in helicopters, traps ect)

(1) food - baiting
(2) sex - calling
(3) arrogance - the lion is the apex predator and with that comes arrogance. You don't find that in a leopard. That is why few are ever killed off bait.

Arrogance and chance encounter on the roads where lions walk will give you an opportunity to shoot one. This encounter normally take place right at daylight or dusk (invested in illuminated swarovski reticle) and the arrogance of the lion is after he is bumped he will scoot into the bush but he will stop and take a look at what bumped him. That is when he is shot and killed.

The idea that someone can follow a lion not called to bait but just of a spore and find him and them kill him is BS. Most of the chance wild lion kills are off a bait (natural or placed) or pure randomness. But the idea someone can track a lion like a elephant or a herd of dagga boys in my view is pure BS. Kind of like South Africa's cattle raiding lions.

Mike

In Namibia, we worked the roads to find tracks, then followed in the sandy areas spotting a pair of lions at a distance. We drug baits and tied the baits to trees for three days to hold the lions in the area then we tracked them up. It was a combination of baiting and tracking, but very effective.

I prefer this to sitting I blinds.

Given how difficult it has become to shoot a proper Lion, I wouldn't consider doing it unless I had a long time to observe the animal. A hide is a necessity.

I would be very reticent to shoot a lion in countries such as Burkina Faso that don't allow baiting. Too afraid to shoot the wrong cat.

One advantage of a blind is that you can monitor the cat and assess age and this is increasingly important with Lion where age restrictions occur.

If you want excitement try walking out of the blind when a Lion is feeding.

Tracking up Lion is indeed very fine sport but in the past has led to a hurried shot and wounding.

In Zambia there is no other way to shoot Leopard apart from a chance encounter.

Okay, so you are reluctant to track up lion these days due to age restriction Andrew..?

An honest question....no sarcasm implied, please notice..

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
One advantage of a blind is that you can monitor the cat and assess age and this is increasingly important with Lion where age restrictions occur.

If you want excitement try walking out of the blind when a Lion is feeding.

Tracking up Lion is indeed very fine sport but in the past has led to a hurried shot and wounding.

In Zambia there is no other way to shoot Leopard apart from a chance encounter.

Another aspect of a hurried shot (normally poor off hand shooting) and wounding of a wild lion is that the follow up will take any fantasy of a "old school" tracking hunt away.

Any sane PH would most likely do the follow up in a vehicle. So there goes the fantasy of a "old school" tracking hunt.

Walking up to a lion kill is again something I would not advise. It is exciting for sure.

In Burkina we found a dead buffalo that was set up as a natural kill. We left it over night and idea was to come to it in the morning. The PH had cleared a shooting lane and the plan was to sneak up via a dried riverbed and climb up get to the shooting lane and kill the lion feeding on the buffalo.

Next morning we try to find our way thru the riverbed but could not locate the exact spot (lesson bring your own gps). So we end up in the high glass trying to find buffalo.

The lion lets out a real roar and it gets my attention as clearly as anything but one event in my life.

We are 4 people with 2 rifles and a shotgun in a sea of high grass trying to locate the buffalo carcass with a lion somewhere.

Then there is a continuous rumbling/roar for a good 2-3 minutes. We all trying to figure out what it was - lion circling around ect. Turned out it was a jet descending to land in Niamey, Niger a 100 plus miles away. There is a 7 am flight into Niamey.

The lion after his real roar tore off the front right leg and went off.

Hunting over bait is the right way for all - ph hunter lion conservation ect.

Mike

I think we have had a good discussion so far..

BTW, what rifles and bullets do you people prefer hunting lion...from blind or tracking..

Double or bolt..??

I hunted Namibia during easter this year, hunted kudu with a farmer who lived very remote in the Karas mountains south in Namibia...he occasionally shot leopard that stalked his sheep...shot them on bait with a .308Win..

Rifle - bolt
Bullets - swift a frames
Scope - Swarovski Z6 illuminated

Make sure scope is top grade - really top grade. Only reason I killed a lion in Burkina was because of the scope - the rifle, the bullets, the ph, me were secondary to the scope.

Leave the double for the buff/elephant

But then what do I know - I have shot my first and only lion. Going forward I will be much more focused on the camera to take for shooting pictures of lions.

Mike

I've had the pleasure of both hunting Lion successfully By tracking with one of the best teams at it (Ian Gibson with Robert) and by use of bait with Stu Taylor and Davie. Both of which were exceptional hunts.
Both hunts providing great experiences and memory's.
Although tracking Lion is what I consider the ultimate hunt, to sneak up to a blind in the early hours to see an old lion asleep only fifteen meters away as you step into the blind is something you wont forget..

"""BTW, what rifles and bullets do you people prefer hunting lion...from blind or tracking..""

The tracking hunt was with a handy 9.3x62 and the blind hunt was with an open sighted WR425.

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

Any sane PH would most likely do the follow up in a vehicle . So there goes the fantasy of a "old school" tracking hunt.


Mike

There are places a vehicle won't go. Don't know if Andrew qualifies as insane but we followed up my Lion on foot. A vehicle would have never been able to get into the thick cover the Lion took to.

Bolt rifle in 375 H&H
300 grain Barnes TSX
Swarovski illuminated scope

Andrew carried my 450 NE

Pondoro:
Are you saying those of us that are too old, feeble or crippled up shouldn't go hunting at all? It sure sounds that way from your original post. Great experience's guys, enjoyed reading about them all.
George

Georgeld, by no means no....merely discussing the pluses/minuses by the different hunting methods....in that way this thread is educating....I see good arguments for both approaches now..

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Okay, so you are reluctant to track up lion these days due to age restriction Andrew..?

An honest question....no sarcasm implied, please notice..

I am sure Andrew will answer you.

But, from my own experience of following lions, one hardly ever gets a chance to examine the animal as well he does on bait.

When we did this, there was no age restriction, and when you find the tracks of a male, you followed it, and if it has a main, you shot it.

Won't happen today I am afraid.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Okay, so you are reluctant to track up lion these days due to age restriction Andrew..?

An honest question....no sarcasm implied, please notice..

I am sure Andrew will answer you.

But, from my own experience of following lions, one hardly ever gets a chance to examine the animal as well he does on bait.

When we did this, there was no age restriction, and when you find the tracks of a male, you followed it, and if it has a main, you shot it.

Won't happen today I am afraid.

This is pretty much what I was implying. If the conditions are right and you have clearly identified the Lion as a mature trophy male then by all means track him up. However to track up a male and have to make a quick decision regarding age can be difficult. Is frowned upon to shoot a pride male etc

Walking to and fro to a blind in the dark is exciting enough. To have a Lion eyeball you through a thin veil of grass is also quite thrilling.

I am headed to Africa for my third safari in late July. So far I have not hunted cats. May hunt them some day.
When I hunt cats, I will be sure to do it the "right way" and I will make that determination, with my PH.
Thanks