So just for humor and to play the devils advocate

What about the hunter that does smoke constantly, Pack after pack and insist the windows in the truck stay rolled up as he's chilled all the time ? What is the PH or guide to do

What about the hunter that must have his phone on during a stalk and blows a stalk trying stay abreast of his business, family and mistress? what is the PH or Guide to do

What about the guy that shows up on a Sheep, Brown Bear hunt or wilderness pack trip that is so grossly out of shape that there is no f----king plan at all ? What is the PH or Guide to do

What about the hunter that shows up on a hunt and insist his rifle is zeroed and becomes insolent when ask to prove it then misses animal after animal ? what is the PH or guide to do

What if the hunter is constantly checking his or her e-mails or spending hours upon hours in camp trying to send pics back home or to hunting buddies while he should be hunting and at the end of the Safari or hunt complains bitterly that not enough tags were filled ? What is the PH or guide to do

What about the hunter that has to clear his or her throat every five minutes without let up ? "" "" "" " "

What about the hunter that can not for what ever reason get off a fast accurate shot when its time to drop the hammer ? " " " "


Having stood on that side of the fence I'm just curious ?????????

Good post! Should be interesting.

Darcy,

The first guide I used many years ago told me "You gotta take whatever comes out the shoot" and I think that pretty much sums it up. Bottom line is hunting is a business and one guy's money is as good as another's. Sometimes PHing is a hard but rewarding job and sometimes it's just a hard job. There is a limit though and just recently a safari operator I work with told a client he was not welcome in his camp in the future because of his behavior.

BTW: Lon Paul speaks highly of you for some reason

Mark

So just for humor and to play the devils advocate

What about the hunter that does smoke constantly, Pack after pack and insist the windows in the truck stay rolled up as he's chilled all the time ? What is the PH or guide to do. No one should tolerate to have a client or a PH to smoke in the car. Politely Just say not in the car lol everywhere else but just not in my face. Thats just common sense in the western world now

What about the hunter that must have his phone on during a stalk and blows a stalk trying stay abreast of his business, family and mistress? what is the PH or Guide to do. Politely say that we are going to have a hard time finding any animals when that thing is ringing.

What about the guy that shows up on a Sheep, Brown Bear hunt or wilderness pack trip that is so grossly out of shape that there is no f----king plan at all ? What is the PH or Guide to do What can you do ? Press yourself and your client to the hardest, finding easier spots to glass etc. Most times a plan can be made.

What about the hunter that shows up on a hunt and insist his rifle is zeroed and becomes insolent when ask to prove it then misses animal after animal ? what is the PH or guide to do We must re zero / blame it on plane ride and try the rifle yourself. Look at the rifle and accidentally drop it and say sorry we must re zero lol.

What if the hunter is constantly checking his or her e-mails or spending hours upon hours in camp trying to send pics back home or to hunting buddies while he should be hunting and at the end of the Safari or hunt complains bitterly that not enough tags were filled ? What is the PH or guide to do Explain in the first days of the safari that certain times/nights/hours of the day is the best chance to find animals. For sure we can relax more but your hunting will be suffering and some animals is impossible to get.

What about the hunter that has to clear his or her throat every five minutes without let up ? A mint ?

What about the hunter that can not for what ever reason get off a fast accurate shot when its time to drop the hammer ? Try to support / show him in camp / test shoot etc. Getting angry and cursing would probably just doing it worse


Having stood on that side of the fence I'm just curious ?????????


I think the key is to say/explain etc in the beginning of the safari, first day the best. Rules, guidelines etc.

Its seems so many bad trips could be solved if more talking would have been made earlier in the trip

I'm with Anton on this.

Really it's the hunters vacation, and if he or she understands the risks from their behaviors on the successful getting of their trophy, and chooses to do so anyway, it's their hunt and time.

I would let them know they are adversely affecting their chances so that they can't legitimately state "I would have done it differently if I had been told!" It's been my experience that folks with issues know this and understand as long as you do your best.

The octogenarian sheep hunter knows he's old....

It comes down to what kind of person you are dealing with. Jerks will be jerks regardless if they are in shape, fat, slow, good shots or bad.

When you ask the client how is your fitness level and what is your hunting experience, be suspicious... be very, very suspicious.

The guy paying for it: his monkey, his circus.

quote:

When you ask the client how is your fitness level and what is your hunting experience, be suspicious... be very, very suspicious

The last one - quick accurate shot is the one I can identify with on some occasion.

The quick accurate shot often depends on the rifle and the position you are in.

I have missed chances (1) when the rifle was a poor fit and I could not pick up the target in the scope as I mounted the rifle (never happened again) (2) On target and waiting for the walking animal at very close range to stop (dumb duh) - I have missed such opportunities mostly on sika deer which keep to thick bush and do not give you a clean open shot - unlike fallow & red deer. (3) When the guide stopped the vehicle and we saw the animal scuttle & instead of asking me to get out & shoot he walks out in front of me, creating a very dangerous situation to shoot from, which I refused to do.

I am going to say that all these behaviors are probably exception to the rule,rather than being common place in the industry,but the more they get talked about? the better it is to establish some guidelines for everyone involved,on the outfitter websites,guidelines for the hunt should be explained & why a good hunt has to have certain criteria for it to be a good hunt for all.

I'm thinking the OP's point was missed entirely.

Obviously a satirical representation of the way the forum has of picking fly shit from pepper once all the interesting topics have been thoroughly dissected and the elites have chosen their moral high grounds!

What's next? What bullet is best for buffalo? How many shots to kill a buffalo? Best caliber for leopard? Hunting buffer zones around parks ethical or not? And so on ...

And Todd, your constant farting was the topic of at least one PHASA meeting last year :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
And Todd, your constant farting was the topic of at least one PHASA meeting last year :-)

Where's that turd photo when you need it?

Damn Photobucket! Curses!!

Very simple.

Should book a hunt through Shawn with Mark Sullivan.

the hunting part is workarounds.

IMO the client in question is a jerk.
let me go a little further, a self centered jerk, but that's probably why he is paying for a hunt and a guide.

If people like that truly exist, they shouldn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
If people like that truly exist, they shouldn't.

I am in 100% agreement: They should not exist. But, unfortunately, they do!

Not sure about the ones who use cell phones or smoke.

But the one who cannot shoot are regular clients of Mark Sullivan!

Don't take my word for it.

He said it himself, many times

Bloody hell, it does not get funnier than this!

I don't believe the all the crap answers to the OPs question that have been posted so far. it is really quite simple, like any old animal that is past it's use by date, the sort of hunter described should simply be put down

I know of instance where an older woman found herself a toy boy.

The toy boy was apparently very anxious to go on safari.

The woman obliged, and to top it all off, got him a custom made rifle.

He wanted a lion, nothing else, and the custom rifle was a 416 Rigby.

He had his gunsmith install a scope on it, and sighted it in.

The rifle was perfectly set for a memorable safari, killing the desired lion.

It never occurred to our hunter that he needs to shoot the rifle, and get familiar with it.

He arrived in camp, with one box of 20 rounds of ammo.

As soon as he arrived in camp, a slight problem occurred.

Apparently he was unaware that one has to shoot bait animals for the lion.

He has been watching National Geographic videos, where lions lay lazying about under a tree, and he though he would just pick the one he wants, and kill it.

A kudu cow was chosen as bait, as it was cheap.

They found a herd of kudu, and the PH pointed an old cow standing there.

Our hunter fires a shot, and hits a young bull 5 yards away from the cow!

As you can imagine, things were already sliding downhill, and when this happened, they hit an avalanche downwards.

He did not shoot a lion.

And he wanted to book another hunt, but the PH found out that he was solidly booked to the year 2056!

So don't ever think these sort of hunters do not exists.

They do.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I know of instance where an older woman found herself a toy boy.

The toy boy was apparently very anxious to go on safari.

The woman obliged, and to top it all off, got him a custom made rifle.

He wanted a lion, nothing else, and the custom rifle was a 416 Rigby.

He had his gunsmith install a scope on it, and sighted it in.

The rifle was perfectly set for a memorable safari, killing the desired lion.

It never occurred to our hunter that he needs to shoot the rifle, and get familiar with it.

He arrived in camp, with one box of 20 rounds of ammo.

As soon as he arrived in camp, a slight problem occurred.

Apparently he was unaware that one has to shoot bait animals for the lion.

He has been watching National Geographic videos, where lions lay lazying about under a tree, and he though he would just pick the one he wants, and kill it.

A kudu cow was chosen as bait, as it was cheap.

They found a herd of kudu, and the PH pointed an old cow standing there.

Our hunter fires a shot, and hits a young bull 5 yards away from the cow!

As you can imagine, things were already sliding downhill, and when this happened, they hit an avalanche downwards.

He did not shoot a lion.

And he wanted to book another hunt, but the PH found out that he was solidly booked to the year 2056!

So don't ever think these sort of hunters do not exists.

They do.

So....what happened then? Did Walter ever get his Lion?

You all laugh but things like this do happen.

We arrived in Zim one time. The PH asked if we had every hunted and shot guns before. Well, I thought this was pretty damn strange. Why, of course we had. Later in the trip, we learned that previous client shows up in Zim with a brand new gun that had never been fired and a brand new scope still in the box. He did not have mounts and rings! This client have never hunted a day in his life and have never fired a gun.

Crazy things do happen.

As long as the client pays in full, he
/she can screw up their hunt anyway they chose (provided they don't endanger others). JMO.

I always ask the PH to zero my rifle just to see their reactions.

BH63

quote:

I always ask the PH to zero my rifle just to see their reactions.

Most of the "weathered" PHs prefer their clients shoot their own rifle/s, especially those with a known recoil and watch for the ones with a tendency to flinch; some actually shut both eyes in the millisecond they are about to let it rip.

A couple of my personal favorites:
Gent shows up for a horseback hunt, admits he's never been around horses. A little encouragement and help with the old hand cup method, gent mounts and promptly goes head first off the other side. 1st aid required but he was good natured about it.
Another gent brings his own horse and tack. (Okay but I'd prefer mine as they just know stuff that city horses will never learn.) Anyway, he's lagging behind and his Wby rifle falls out of his scabbard unnoticed by anyone. 4 Days of "rifle" hunting ensued. Never did find it.
Guy shows up for a muzzleloader hunt. Unpacks his car and drags out a box with rifle still in it. Asks me if I know how to put it together? This compounded when he ran out of components and we lost 1/2 day driving to Wal Mart for powder and stuff.
Couple of guys show up with really nice Rifles Inc equipment. Brag about their long range shooting skill. 700 yds "no problem". You know the rest of this story.
I guess what I'm saying is that overweight, out of shape, chain smoking, cell phone addicts are easy to deal with.

Still my favorite client experience was in the mid 90's at Klaserie Nature Reserve with a Texas type with "loads" of dangerous game experience and he let us know often. It was the fourth day or so and we were in the midst of 300+ buff staring down a 45"er 40 yards away. Client gets up on the sticks and proceeds to take the safety off and immediately ejected a cartridge from the breech followed by dumping his magazine on the ground followed by ejecting the newly charged cartridge on the ground. It was so bizarre that everyone looked at each other and couldn't say a word or even crack a smile.

That night we learned it was the PH's fault for getting us in so close. Can't remember if the client smoked but he sure drank a lot that night... Then again, everyone else did as well...

I don't understand a client spending 1000s of $$$ on a hunt and not taking the time to practice and be familiar with the rifle before going on this hunt! In my experience this is the number 1 reason for hard feelings, bad moods blaming, sulking, tempers on both sides...Being physically able to do a hunt is a given. No point in biting off more than you can chew. Do an easier hunt or try and get in the best possible shape you can.

ON the flip side there are many PHs who need serious lessons on how to behave with a client. In no other business or profession would they get away with what they do in the hunting biz, in-terms of client interaction.

Guess no one is perfect!

I don't smoke, hate cell phones, am in decent shape, don't whine, bitch or moan about much, haven't hunted dangerous game, am a passable shot to 300 (but I'd prefer under 100 as I grew up mostly bowhunting and anything past 25 is far to me), not a drunk, know how to cook and tend a fire, won't bring a tape measure and I'm damn near beyond disappointment at this point in the game about most things. That's right, I'm the perfect hunting companion just waiting for an invitation to the big times... please PM your offer. ;-)

Well, depending on which country your in I would say your lion, leopard, or bear bait just walked into camp with his smokes, cell phone and shooting ability.

The the first thing one should never expect that a PH and Client should or will be held
to the same standards- Smoking, sleeping in, out of shape, etc... From the subject matter,
I can only assume that this is the case.

Bottom line is that it's the Clients hunt, he pays the bills and helps provide the job to the Outfitter and PH. I would hate dealing with many Clients and therefore, would never want to be an Outfitter.

As I say about all jobs, if you hate it so bad, do something else. Very few are concerned with your working conditions. Unfortunate, but true!

quote:

ON the flip side there are many PHs who need serious lessons on how to behave with a client. In no other business or profession would they get away with what they do in the hunting biz, in-terms of client interaction.

Agreed that there may be a few individuals who tarnish the image of the majority and they should be exposed instead of talking behind their backs.

A PH however is not a common whore who remains at the whim of a client for the contracted period.


The hunting/guiding business is a totally different ball game and is conducted under a separate set of rules, far different from those in any other common business or profession and similar to comparing apples to oranges.

PHs by and large are easy-going types who have had the opportunity of meeting and interacting with clients of varying nationalities, creeds and professions, a variety so wide that few clients could boast of the same experience.

Having said that, they have also come across a grand variety of characters who would qualify from "pleasant to prime asshole" - when you have been in the business long enough you would know what I mean.

Unfortunately though and due to the fact that in those circumstances where the obese, demanding, obnoxious, uncouth, know-all and drunkard, is client and paymaster, the PH is expected/obliged to behave and interact normally. Is that how this category of client leads his life in the normal world or just when he goes hunting?

The PH can and should draw the line under two circumstances:

1. The client does not handle firearms safely after a warning.
2. The client cannot shoot well enough, with his own or a loaner rifle, to be reasonably sure of a mortal shot.

Under those two conditions, the PH should cancel the hunt and refund only the prepaid trophy fees, if any.

All of the other stuff should be viewed as a training/workaround opportunity.

I was in Namibia a few weeks ago and we were told of a (non hunted) fresh zebra carcass that'd be ideal to drag off and shoot some hyena. When we stumbled upon the PH who had called about the animal, my PH and he spoke Afrikaans and I went to talk with the hunters. During our pleasantries I found out one of the hunters was from Germany and the two other gents were from Florida.

Later on (as I don't speak Afrikaans) my PH told me the German was on his first hunt and had to be taught how to shoot. Also, all three of them independently had shot and wounded the same wildebeest. The unfortunate animal finally had to be dispatched by the PH.

Question is- whose trophy is it? One gets the horns, one the legs and one the wings....

quote:

Originally posted by reddy375:

ON the flip side there are many PHs who need serious lessons on how to behave with a client. In no other business or profession would they get away with what they do in the hunting biz, in-terms of client interaction.

Guess no one is perfect!

One of the funniest things that ever happened to me on safari:

I was hunting Namibia and we stopped to have dinner with another PH and his Appy, a 20 year old, kid who spoke little English, just German and Africaans. We were discussing the origins of the European settlers living in Namibia, when I casually mentioned that my mother is Japanese and the Appy blurts out "Oh, you're colored"

I thought that the other PH was going to have a stroke as he started flaying this kid alive, in Africaans. He was giving this kid both barrels when I busted up laughing. I told the other PH that I wasn't offended and that I understood that the Appy wasn't trying to be offensive, just impulsive. I never saw a more relieved face in my life, even though I know that the Appy was going to catch a world of shit later anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
The guy paying for it: his monkey, his circus.

Just because you have money doesn't mean you have class ...

What my Mom taught me

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I know of instance where an older woman found herself a toy boy.

The toy boy was apparently very anxious to go on safari.

The woman obliged, and to top it all off, got him a custom made rifle.

He wanted a lion, nothing else, and the custom rifle was a 416 Rigby.

He had his gunsmith install a scope on it, and sighted it in.

The rifle was perfectly set for a memorable safari, killing the desired lion.

It never occurred to our hunter that he needs to shoot the rifle, and get familiar with it.

He arrived in camp, with one box of 20 rounds of ammo.

As soon as he arrived in camp, a slight problem occurred.

Apparently he was unaware that one has to shoot bait animals for the lion.

He has been watching National Geographic videos, where lions lay lazying about under a tree, and he though he would just pick the one he wants, and kill it.

A kudu cow was chosen as bait, as it was cheap.

They found a herd of kudu, and the PH pointed an old cow standing there.

Our hunter fires a shot, and hits a young bull 5 yards away from the cow!

As you can imagine, things were already sliding downhill, and when this happened, they hit an avalanche downwards.

He did not shoot a lion.

And he wanted to book another hunt, but the PH found out that he was solidly booked to the year 2056!

So don't ever think these sort of hunters do not exists.

They do.

So....what happened then? Did Walter ever get his Lion?

Damnit Bakes. Just coughed on my Makers!

It is part of the business. He is paying a Professional and you need to politely give him professional advice. Assume that he is hunting or fishing for the first time and he may not know any better

The Outfitter needs to take accountability for events that contribute to an unsuccessful hunt. You have to have good communication and let them know if they are doing something wrong. Just do it politely. You will find that many people will charter you to gain knowledge as much as tagging out.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
So just for humor and to play the devils advocate


Having stood on that side of the fence I'm just curious ?????????

A non professional point of view.

What about the hunter that does smoke constantly, Pack after pack and insist the windows in the truck stay rolled up as he's chilled all the time ? What is the PH or guide to do
Light up some incense. Hope it drive him nuts.
What about the hunter that must have his phone on during a stalk and blows a stalk trying stay abreast of his business, family and mistress? what is the PH or Guide to do
Buy some cheap toy walkie talkies and give one to each of your PH's and stop the hunt and act like your actually mimicking the client.

What about the guy that shows up on a Sheep, Brown Bear hunt or wilderness pack trip that is so grossly out of shape that there is no f----king plan at all ? What is the PH or Guide to do
Eat more bread, pasta, pork, cheese and ham.

What about the hunter that shows up on a hunt and insist his rifle is zeroed and becomes insolent when ask to prove it then misses animal after animal ? what is the PH or guide to do
Hand him a dunce cap and cut off his shirt tail.

What if the hunter is constantly checking his or her e-mails or spending hours upon hours in camp trying to send pics back home or to hunting buddies while he should be hunting and at the end of the Safari or hunt complains bitterly that not enough tags were filled ? What is the PH or guide to do
Hand him a flier for a canned high fence hunt.

What about the hunter that has to clear his or her throat every five minutes without let up ? "" "" "" " "
Look him or her in the eye and ask "are you alright" in a semi-panicked tone, then ask him or her if they need some water. Breathe man or woman! Breathe! Also, try 'do you need a tissue'?

What about the hunter that can not for what ever reason get off a fast accurate shot when its time to drop the hammer ? " " " "
--------

We were hunting aoudads, the client was set up ready to shoot when I realized the aoudads were going to come out VERY close. I was behind the client looking over his shoulder to make sure he shot the right animal. Worrying that his rifle might be sighted in for long range, I whispered, "What is your rifle sighted in at?" He calmly replied, "I don't know, I never shot a rifle before". He told me later that his brother in law had won the rifle at the church raffle and they said it was "ready to go".
NEVER assume anything!