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One of Us |
Good day, Gents: I notice most, if not all, PHs offer 2x1 hunts at a slightly reduced daily rate. To me this does not make good financial sense. A daily rate from buffalo on up to the big four in Zim can run between 1000-2500$ per day. I note some PHs offer a discount of 50$ per day 2x1. Mathematically, one saves a few hundred dollars but hunting time is cut by one half. I have done this once in SA on a plains game hunt with a friend and we were after different animals, and again in Australia a few weeks ago. Do many of you do this and your thoughts? What say you.... Cheers, all, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | ||
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I don't believe I would ever do this. The fiancial incentive is too low to make it worthwhile to me. . | |||
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I did 2x1 and it worked well but we had lots of time so there was no pressure of trying to get each person's specific animals before trip-end. I liked 2x1 because it's fun to hunt with your pard and gives each of you the opportunity to experience another stalk & shot outside your own, plus you can run the vid cam for each other. I think the discount should be greater though. Yeah, two guys use a little more food and additional bedspace (presumably!), maybe a little more fuel, but most of the other associated costs aren't increased much. $50 bucks discount on the day rate favors the operator pretty heavily. | |||
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I'm with you Cal. I don't think that the price differences usually offered are really that worthwhile for 2x1 instead of 1x1. That said, hunting with your spouse or a child (and maybe a best friend), may change the matrix somewhat... that and the second hunter can be operating a video camera, I guess. As an option, some P.H.'s will offer a 1x1 with observer. There's a danger there, in my simple mind. Even if there are multiple animals available on the issued license or your hunting partner doesn't want a specie you want, hunting as an observer (albeit at a much, much reduced rate) and taking an animal on the other guys license usually is, at least technically, illegal. Where the heck that leaves you with your God, USFW and the local authorities, I guess is your business, but I'm not keen on the idea. As for me, I would rather enjoy the 1x1 experience and have my camaraderie at the fire pit. All that said, on my daughter's first safari, I wanted to be there for the whole thing. I didn't hunt, but had a great time with her. For her second safari, both of us think that her having her own P.H., etc., really added to and experience that was really "hers" and not her daddy's... if that makes any sense??? JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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I've only hunted 1x1 on my couple of trips over the pond. However, on our last trip there were a few times my buddy and I hunted in close proximity to each other; however, we were after different species. We did meet up to discuss what we had seen or what happened. I like the 1x1 hunting. Yet, I might change my mind when my sons get older and I want to do a little more hunting with them. I hunt here with a group of friends and we basically hunt by ourselves for most of the season, yet we group up again at camp and discuss the days events, which is much like hunting in Africa with the only difference having the PH by your side all day. Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Judge G, at the risk of discussing legality with a judge, I have researched at some length with Zim and Namibia PH's. All have assured me that once one buys the license for a game animal, he may take it or have anyone else take it for him. Some clients have even required their PH to shoot most of their bag. These PH's are not the supreme court cheif justice, but they seemed confident in their assesments. Tom ...I say that hunters go into Paradise when they die, and live in this world more joyfully than any other men. -Edward, duke of York ". . . when a man has shot an elephant his life is full." ~John Alfred Jordan "The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." Cicero - 55 BC "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand Cogito ergo venor- KPete “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.” ― Adam Smith - “Wealth of Nations” | |||
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As long as I hunt with my dad, it will always be 2x1. I go as much to be with him, to enjoy his successes and to create shared memories as I do for any game animal. Soon it will be with my children as well. I am not sure I am interested in hunting if they are not with me. "Remember that time that we ..." is what makes this important to me. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I did it once back in the '70's when the incentive was much, much larger. Never again even at the big dollars much less a measely $50. The operator is doing a real ripe off at $50.00 and at that rate I can see them trying to sell 2X1 | |||
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I've always done 1X1 and don't plan to make any changes. I go frequently with Bwanna, but we each have our own PH, own Chalet, etc. We do share the campfire and meals together, and it works out just right. | |||
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At one time I thought the same thing some of the posters are saying here - the 2x1 day rate should be half of the 1x1 day rate - but I've come to understand that my thinking was flawed due to the fact that the only real savings for an operator running a 2x1 hunt is that there is only one PH to pay and one vehicle to run. If the trophy fees are going to the government or the landowner, the operator makes his money and pays his costs from the day rate. So, the retail cost of your buffalo hunt is the day rate. If the day rate is $1,000 per day for ten days, the retail cost of the 1x1 buff hunt is $10,000. The same hunt on a 2x2 is $20,000. In what world would it make financial sense to offer two for the price of one AND bring along a friend for free to eat the food, drink the beer, need his laundry done, etc? It does not, and that's why you see the small day rate reduction on the 2x1 hunts. The $50 per day reduction is not a rip off, rather it is an pretty accurate reflection of the per-day savings when conducting a 2x1 hunt. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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I would think the proper discount would be 1/2 of the daily wages for the hunting party i e PH, tracker, skinner etc. The room and board aspect of the hunt is the same. It is sort of like the rate for non hunter which in most cases is MUCH below the daily rate for the hunter. Of course all that being said I don't think I would ever do a two on one hunt. Never have done with my son as I wanted him to have his own experince with out the "old man" looking over his shoulder. | |||
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I wouldn't have expected the daily rate on 2x1 to be half of the 1x1 price, but I figured $50 off wasn't quite right. safari-lawyer, I think you bring up a good point that I hadn't considered. I've never done 1x1, so shouldn't comment which is better but I do think 2x1 is great if it's with a really good friend or the right family member... | |||
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I've done 3 or 4 of 16 safaris as 2x1 with family members and they can be fun to do under the right circumstances. Have also done 1x1, 2x2, 3x3. My SIL and I depart in 12 days for a 2x1 which will be his first safari. I expect to enjoy his experience tremendously and this is how I wanted to do it. As to the cost differential, it's certainly not enough to make a difference if each has specific game on quota. However, it is my belief that a good PH running a 2x1 will have to work much harder than when conducting a 1x1, and should earn full tips from both hunters. 2x1 does not mean splitting the PH and staff tips! JMO Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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As far as costs goes for the second hunter. If there are 12 people in camp and you add a second hunter, you would need 1/12th increase in food and drink costs (probably more like 1/8th increase because clients eat and drink better than the staff) but just about every other cost should be the same. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I was mainly thinking of Tanzania. If you are comfortable, have at it! You, and your sources may well be right! I certainly hope so.
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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I've done 2X1 several times with my sons. We've always made sure to book enough days to do everything we want to do without time creating pressure. The reason for the 2X1 then becomes sharing the experience, not saving money. A lot depends on the type of hunt being conducted. 2X1 would not be as much of an issue on something like a RSA plains game hunt where both hunters are after Warthog, Zebra, Springbok, Blesbok, and Impala. 2X1 for a Leopard hunt would be stupid!! 2X1 has it's place. But unless I'm hunting with my kids, I prefer 1X1. | |||
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Think about it this way...in a best case scenario, hunting 2x1 offers only 50% of the hunting for 80% of the cost. So...the tendency is to book a few extra days to make sure everyone gets what they want. Given that, a guy on a $1000 per day hunt ($800 2x1) spends $8000 on a ten day hunt when he could have spent $7000 on a seven day 1x1 hunt ....AND effectively had the equivalent of two extra days of hunt time relative to 5 days watching his buddy chase stuff. 2x1 is false economy. | |||
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I'd spend 8k for a 10day hunt vs 7k for a 7day hunt anytime...grin. | |||
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IMO, 2X1 is only for family hunting where everyone wants to shoot, but the thrill of being there first hand when you son shooting a zebra outweighs any financial 'penalty'. I would never hunt 2X1 outside my immediate family. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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Very true! Most PHs dread this configuration. The clients arrive as buddies and may likely wind up leaving as enemies. | |||
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I have hunted 1X1, 2X1 with a friend, and once 3X1 with both my sons on their first hunt. I enjoyed them all, but looking forward: I would be reluctant to hunt 2x1 with someone other than a close relative, and then only for plains game. I would be very reluctant to hunt dangerous game any way other than 1X1. Once you share a PH, you reduce your hunting time and the focus on your goals. You should only do it if seeing the other hunter achieve his/her goals is as important to you as achieving your own. | |||
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My daughter and I are going to SA next years for PG. She is paying as an extra as she wants to go and see things including me hunt. She can take photos and video also. She does want to take a Kudu and I most certainly want to be with her when she does hopefully with video and photos. I did not think about the "looking over her shoulder" part but will keep it in mond and keep my mouth shut and let the PH work with her to help that problem out. Other than that I would want to go 1X1. | |||
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In my opinion, a 2 x 1 hunt puts more pressure on the PH, therefore he should get paid considerably more than if he was guiding only one client, thus the small reduction on the daily rate. On a 2 x 1 hunt he has two clients to try to find animals for and make happy. There is no doubt, the 2 x 1 hunt is more work for the PH. For those of you who are saying a 2 x 1 should be discounted a lot more than $50 a day, your math is wrong. The daily rate includes the PH, his vehicle and tracker, PLUS lodging and food. For example, if you're paying a $400 daily rate on a PG hunt in SA, the lodging and food might be $150 of that or maybe more. I've done two hunts with the 2 x 1 arrangement. One was with my dad and the other with my brother. I'm very glad I did them that way, because sharing with a close family member is very special. On both hunts, our animal list was short, which made for a relaxing safari. Having said that, I would only do a 2 x 1 with a family member. | |||
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Hunting 2x1 with my best friend and hunting buddy makes for a richer experience for me. It has nothing to do with the money. If the rate was the same for 2x1 as 1x1, I would still prefer a 2x1 hunt. My friend and I do not go on safari with a punch list of animals we need to take to have a successful hunt. We do not compete against each other. We are there to hunt, and the shared experience is what makes it all worth while. We switch off the "primary shooter" and "backup" responsibilities every day and end up sharing in each others successes and screw ups - and we have had both. When we get back to the States and are reliving our hunts with other friends, we remember different things about each hunt and encounter, and this helps keep these great memories alive. When you do a 1x1 hunt, who do you share it with when you get back? I prefer to share it with someone who was there with me. Mangwana | |||
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Thats a good way of looking at it Admiral. To me, hunting 2X1 isn't about saving money but rather about sharing the experience. If someone needs to save money, it might be better to go for a bit less Safari than split the PH. If doing 2X1, even though it is a little cheaper per day, you'll probably want to hunt more days so that time doesn't become an issue. That way, all can enjoy the time spent afield without putting undue pressure on the PH to perform. | |||
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I have always wondered... back in the eighties, I looked into going over to Zim and S.A, and 2x1 was both commonly available and at least 30% cheaper. What changed? DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Depends on your trophy list. My son and I had a list of PG and we split it. I didn't really need to kill an impala after he did. My son doing it was pretty much as good as me pulling the trigger. In fact, in many ways better. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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I just haven't met the person that I would want to do a 2x1 with. I have seen a couple of friendships lost on a 2x1 hunt. 465H&H | |||
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465, I believe you - but man its hard to believe! Its just hunting for heaven's sake. I couldn't imagine letting a hunt, an animal, even a trophy animal, come between me and a friend? If/when killing something becomes that important, important enough to lose a friendship over - I better re-evaluate my priorties in life! | |||
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You are better to hunt 2x1 but pay for a 2x2 and have a spare PH, Trackers and Vehicle. $50 off is just not right, you pay more for a Appie or cameraman. | |||
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Just did 3x1 on my first trip to South Africa. I was hunting with my brother and Dad, and sharing that experience and adventure was more important to us than running-up larger personal scores. Being a part of my Dad's and brother's hunts for their animals is a special memory I'll not forget. Not saying I'd always do it this way, but it was a very good decision in this instance. | |||
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It all depends on the time constraints placed on the hunt by your "menu". If you have the time, it's nice to share a hunt with a friend or family member. | |||
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I would not do it for the most part. I might entertain that thought if hunting with my son was in the mix. Maybe even a very close friend now & then but have not done it yet. | |||
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I would say you are not much of friends if you had a falling out over ego's on a hunting trip! My first safari was with an old friend of 45 years and we fell over backwards for each other trying to let the other get the best/first trophy. Probably the best hunt I have ever been on! 2x1 needs more days though, for best chances of sucess. DRSS(We Band of Bubba's Div.) N.R.A (Life) T.S.R.A (Life) D.S.C. | |||
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Don't count out the loosing a friend thing. It can certainly happen. I had a friend, that I introduced to hunting by the way, that had a falling out with me. We were on a DIY Moose hunt in Alaska in 1998. There were 3 of us. We decided to go out together on the next to last day as none of us were having any luck. "J" (my old friend) was to be the shooter after drawing straws. Late in the afternoon, we had a small but legal moose come running in to our call (during the rut). For some reason, "D", the 3rd guy, shot and missed the moose twice. "J" just stood there without doing anything. After the moose ran past me where "J" had no shot, I shot and killed it. "D" said that since I drew first blood, the antlers should be mine. "J" became furious as he was "designated shooter". I told him he could have the antlers. He refused. "J" wasn't angry at "D" for shooting first and missing but he sure took it out on me for shooting and killing it. It didn't matter that I waited for "J" to shoot and only joined in once he no longer had a shot at the animal. The 3 of us have hunted Elk a few times together since, but not lately and it's always been a strained friendship since. It's a shame it turned out that way but it did. I would still give him the antlers today if he would take them. But I learned a lot of things on that trip. Not the least of which is that some people value friendship more than others. | |||
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+1 Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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| Administrator |
There are several ways to look at this. I think a lot of people do 2x1 because they enjoy hunting together. The animals they shoot are of secondary importance, and so is the cost. Sadly, I have seen utter idiots who think BIGGER IS BETTER, and have gone out of their way to make sure the animals they shoot are bigger than the ones shot by their parners. There was a guy who even insisted that he shoots an eland, which was far too young, so that he can be the first to shoot one! We christened that eland "the suckling eland". Another hunter shot a bigger animals than he did, so he insisted that he shoots another one, bigger. But, I have to say that that individual is very unique, and hopefully not many are like him. | |||
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Except that you are hunting 100% of the time on the seven day hunt and 50% of the time on the ten day hunt. False economy. | |||
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Tendrams: Of all the folks here you correctly grasp the "false economy" concept. Yes, hunting with a close friend or family member is about the experience, I agree with many here. What brought this to my attention was a post on the African hunting reports about a hunt in the Nuanetsi area of Zim with Charlton McCallum Safaris where CM subtracts 50$ a day for 2x1. Many others do this, too, and the math never seemed to work for me--saving a few hundred dollars to cut 50% of my hunting time. I did this in 2005 in SA with a friend from AK. We were after different animals and the PH was a good friend of mine. We all had fun but it was the PH that really profited. Outside of extra food and drink the PH did nothing extra to earn double the daily rate: one vehicle, same gas, one tracker and one skinner, one trip to and from the airport, etc. Yes, the workers did a bit more on their daily salary but were tipped by two. What caught my eye about the post of CMS is I hunted the Nuanetsi area three times in the 1990s and and old friend, Jim Watts (originator of the .450 Watts cartridge), was there in the 1950s for several months (7$ per day for the daily rate, if I remember correctly). 2x1 may (or may not) be a good experience but, I agree, is a false economy (to the hunter) and I would add a very positive economy to the PH. Brother Dave will pay $1000 per day for his 7-day hunt or $1600 per day for each of his 5 days of hunting on his 10-day safari. There is nothing wrong with this--from either perspective of the client of PH as it is up front and their choice. It is just bad math. It is a false economy. Cheers, Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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Cal, I think you are missing the fact that the PH had to find twice as many shootable trophies in the same amount of time. The trackers did twice the amount of work. The skinners had to skin twice as many animals in the same amount of time. Yes, only one truck, but twice the driving in search of animals to stalk. As to false economy, yes I can see that argument but I can counter with another that for me is just as valid. Instead of saying that BD pays $1600 per day for each of his 5 days of hunting on a 10 day safari, I look at it this way. It's $800 per day to be in the field, HUNTING, in Africa, as opposed to being back home, with the opportunity to hunt for the entire 10 days. Sure, part of the time may be devoted to the other guy, but Africa is not like Alaska or the Western US where you are hunting a Mule Deer, or a Moose, etc. Many times in Africa, you are simply in the field, hunting. For what, well it may be something specific and it may be just to see what one finds. If you are after Kudu and your hunting partner is after Zebra while stalking up to a water hole to see what is there, is only one guy hunting? Do you say, "Ok, you are the shooter so we'll sneak up here to see if there is a Zebra for you. If there is a Kudu, oh well, it wasn't my turn to hunt"? I suppose it is the "glass half full / half empty" scenario. I too prefer 1X1 unless my kids are hunting with me. But I understand what BD is saying when he says he would pay $1K extra for 3 extra days in Africa. It's the experience of being there, not the number of animals I shoot. | |||
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