This has probably been talked about a ton, but I agree with Boddington. I'd rather have one of these lions than no lion at all.
http://www.sportsafield.com/content/second-hand-lions

Excellent article.

Mark

Very good article. Lays out all the issues and leaves each to choose, as it should be. I totally agree that this takes pressure off of wild lions and that is definitely good.

I thought the age minimum in Tanzania was six years; I hope they didn't lower it.

From both outfitters' and hunters' perspective, however, these lion should be described accurately. The infamous cattle killers invading from Botswana story has become a bit thin.

They changed the rules a bit to mimic those of the Niassa Reserve in Mosambique. 6 is still the gold standard but they lessened the severity of penalty for shooting a 5.

Realistically, we have whitetail or pig hunting in the USA in an enclosed area. These deer have been managed and bred for big horns and isolated from a wild population.
I don't see a difference between hunting them or a lion. If it's legal and you want to do it. There should be no problem. Not everyone has the BIG $$$$ to spend on a 'wild' hunt and they will not get less expensive!

No, they won't get less expensive and they will become less available as entire nations have shut their doors to trophy hunting (Botswana).

Makes those ranch lions in South Africa look pretty darn nice.

Some of us have been saying this for years.

But, Boddington put it in a much nicer way.

Just think, if it wasn't for "farmers"in South Africa breeding all sorts of animals, where would some of those animal be now??

Bloody rare if not instinct!

Excellent article. I find the practice of raising the King of Beasts in a pen, to be released into a larger pen, to be shot by a hunter, disgusting. However, it is a necessary evil. Carry on, just don't lie about where your oversized domestic kitty came from.

Personally, as a hunter who is interested in all the details and intricacies of game management, sustainable hunting, etc. I understand Craig's argument. However, we talk about hunters and anti-hunters but often ignore the fact that the vast majority (in the US at least) are somewhat ambivalent towards hunting. As long as they have a general idea that it's ethical, legal, etc. they are too bothered with their own lives, kids soccer games, etc. to care too much about hunting. That is why even though the antis raise the issue every now and again about preserve whitetail hunts, etc. it never gains much traction in the public eye.

And here is where I have a concern. Craig's quote.."So what's the ethical difference between a lion, a kudu, a red stag, a mouflon, or whatever?" We can say there is none, but for the average Joe public there is a HUGE difference. Let me suggest an example. Lets presume I have a population of captive cougars and wolves that I own. I then breed those animals and offer them for SA style hunts on my ranch out west. I could argue how shooting my captive wolves would take the pressure off people wanting to hunt wild wolves, which happens to be a big issue that gets a lot of media play. My whitetail business is doing fine but how long would this new operation last??!! There would be a HUGE uproar. People do not look at all captive bred species the same way and that is a fact. The division is very apparent in the hunting community, let alone the uninformed public. Unless a way is found around that obstacle, and I doubt there is one, it will only be a detriment that the antis will leverage to the maximum.

Put and take is pervasive throughout the hunting industry with virtually every other species of animal. Don't know why lion has been singled out as somehow different and why outfitters feel the need to be deceptive or shy about it. Just come out and say it - we buy animals to stock our farm so that you can come shoot them. Or in the case of lion, we hand raise them so that you can come shoot them.

Farm hunting is farm hunting regardless of the animal. High fences are necessary to protect the investment and to ensure the client has something to shoot. Impala or lion; it should not make a difference.

Good article.

Good article, well written and thought out!


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So lets say Tanzania puts out 100 licenses for lion each year and the outfitters shoot 50...

A very common phrase from everyone thats pro SA lion hunting is that it takes pressure from the wild population ? Why is that, I can't understand it.

Good article, but I thought the post was going to be about the movie.



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0327137/

It's not for everybody
I look at hunting as experience , not collecting.
That's what antique furniture is for
I love when I get home from hunt, grab beer in local brewery with my hunting friends and talk about hunts we were all on ...I couldnt give them line of shit about how tough my lion hunt was, while I shot it in enclosure. It just wouldn't be right.
I agree with vreddy about what a screaming we would hear if we did it here with mountain lions and wolfs.
I read about some guys doing it years back down SW with jags.
The moment it came to light it was over and done with.
But in the end, each to their own.

Both types are dangerous. Feeding captive cats does not make them afraid of humans.

Prices have really gone up. Funny how people lie about where they shoot their cats. I know of one situation where an Outfitter from here in the states killed a Leopard in South Africa. He was not happy with the size of the Leopard so he went to an Estate Sale in Texas and purchased a Leopard mount. He then had the Leopard shipped in a crate to his home so he could tell everyone that he killed the Leopard in Zimbabwe. This Outfitter is somewhat well known in the hunting community but after hearing this I no longer think of him with much creditability .

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
So lets say Tanzania puts out 100 licenses for lion each year and the outfitters shoot 50...

A very common phrase from everyone thats pro SA lion hunting is that it takes pressure from the wild population ? Why is that, I can't understand it.

I agree; the logic of this has always baffled me. Either we have quotas or we do not. The amount on quota won't be impacted by the number of captive lions killed, so how does that take the pressure off native lions?

Saying it reduces the pressure on wild lions is like saying we kill too many wild lions. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. In fact, one could argue killing captive lions creates more hunting show video which stimulates demand for lion hunts, which invariably puts more pressure on wild lions. But we all know this isn't true, because quota determines the annual harvest.

Please, if I am missing something, teach me but at the end of the day you either have a sustainable quota or you don't. Period.

Folks,

One of the reasons that people book an RSA lion hunt is that they cannot afford a "wild" lion hunt so I agree it doesn't wash that shooting a South African lion somehow takes the pressure off the lions from Zimbabwe, Zambia and Tanzania. The best South African hunt is only going to be less than half the cost of a good hunt even in Zimbabwe let alone Tanzania.

I have nothing against RSA "Estate" lion hunting and I may do one myself but I'm not going to tell people some cock 'n bull story about the lion coming over from Botswana or some park. I don't like the subterfuge associated with many of these hunts on the safari operators part or the client's. It is what it is and not a lion hunt in the traditional sense.

Mark

The point is why should we object to anyone shooting a captive bred lion??

Thanks, Lane. Wasn't aware of the rule change. Not sure it's a good thing, although the penalties were a bit draconian -- at least as written. Being Africa, I'm not sure how it worked in practice. Has anyone heard of a PH losing his license for shooting an under-aged cat?

Kind of weakens the whole hunting = conservation argument. Call it farming not hunting.

Its actually akin to reared pheasant shooting in England.

Carrying on this theme, the danger is, its far easier for example for a shoot to put down 500 pheasants than improve or conserve habitat - which is partly why wild grey partridges haven't made a comeback in Britain despite being a popular shooting quarry.

You could possibly see the same situation developing in SA. Sometimes to much of a free market can be a bad thing, but that's my opinion, witness the heavy commercialisation of driven shooting in the UK and its limited conservation value.

Morally.. well I suppose up to the 'hunter/executioner/slaughterman' involved. Can't see the attraction at all myself.

quote:

Carrying on this theme, the danger is, its far easier for example for a shoot to put down 500 pheasants than improve or conserve habitat - which is partly why wild grey partridges haven't made a comeback in Britain despite being a popular shooting quarry.

I agree.

quote:

Has anyone heard of a PH losing his license for shooting an under-aged cat?

Deals have been made so 5 year old lion are aged 6 and above!

These ph's with 3 or more strikes (some of them popular phs in the safari world ) continue guiding clients to under age lion.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
The point is why should we object to anyone shooting a captive bred lion??

As both are bred specifically to be shot, maybe the same reason as given by vegans for objecting to the "shooting" of beef animals in an abattoir?