What typically happens if you book a Safari for Lion or Elephant and the quota for that species is reached before you go? What happens if you are hunting and it is filled by another hunter?

You realize you booked with the wrong outfit through the wrong agent.

Once a complete quota is filled on reserve, no more slots should be sold for that animal. One would become available only at the conclusion of a safari on which a reserved animal was not taken, thus making that quota again available.

Any ethical outfitter would not sell more than his quota on reserve. In other words, he would never allow you to book for a trophy animal whose quota was already accounted for.

And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
You realize you booked with the wrong outfit through the wrong agent.

Pacecar - your example should NEVER happen! Not as long as it was a particular species that you booked for/reserved in advance.

pacecars,

Exactly what Aaron said.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

If leopard, the trackers will urinate on the bait tree when you aren't looking.

Now tell me, when an outfitter says "We have 100% success rates on lion!"

And it is common only 30% of "lion hunters" only ever score, does that mean the "lion outfitter" oversells lion hunts by over 300 percent?!

What happens if the successful 30% is achieved half way through the season ...

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

If leopard, the trackers will urinate on the bait tree when you aren't looking.

Now tell me, when an outfitter says "We have 100% success rates on lion!"

And it is common only 30% of "lion hunters" only ever score, does that mean the "lion outfitter" oversells lion hunts by over 300 percent?!

What happens if the successful 30% is achieved half way through the season ...

John,

I think the answer to your what if's are what Aaron and Mark wrote. With reputable outfitters, overselling will not occur.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
You realize you booked with the wrong outfit through the wrong agent.

+1 Of course, a smart (but TRULY unscrupulous) outfitter would simply do as George mentions and walk you around in areas where the target species is known to never reside...or intentionally blow stalks...or spoil bait sites...or choose poor blind locales...or or or. I would bet this sort of thing happens a lot more than we all think. After the fact, when the client complains publicly, the outfitter/agent will likely come here to AR, label the hunter a crybaby and claim "Well, that's hunting!"

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

If leopard, the trackers will urinate on the bait tree when you aren't looking.

Now tell me, when an outfitter says "We have 100% success rates on lion!"

And it is common only 30% of "lion hunters" only ever score, does that mean the "lion outfitter" oversells lion hunts by over 300 percent?!

What happens if the successful 30% is achieved half way through the season ...

John,

I think the answer to your what if's are what Aaron and Mark wrote. With reputable outfitters, overselling will not occur.

Right, the 'good' outfitter says, "we have a 100% success rate on lions", and most people know, only about 30% of hunters booking lion are actually successful ....

Can't see the two numbers reconciling, with the "we book only up to the quota ... " idea.


I think GeorgeS would know the answer.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
You realize you booked with the wrong outfit through the wrong agent.

+1 Of course, a smart (but TRULY unscrupulous) outfitter would simply do as George mentions and walk you around in areas where the target species is known to never reside...or intentionally blow stalks...or spoil bait sites...or choose poor blind locales...or or or. I would bet this sort of thing happens a lot more than we all think. After the fact, when the client complains publicly, the outfitter/agent will likely come here to AR, label the hunter a crybaby and claim "Well, that's hunting!"

Could happen I suppose. But i'm pretty good at knowing when a cabbie is taking me for a tour as well.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

If leopard, the trackers will urinate on the bait tree when you aren't looking.

Now tell me, when an outfitter says "We have 100% success rates on lion!"

And it is common only 30% of "lion hunters" only ever score, does that mean the "lion outfitter" oversells lion hunts by over 300 percent?!

What happens if the successful 30% is achieved half way through the season ...

John,

I think the answer to your what if's are what Aaron and Mark wrote. With reputable outfitters, overselling will not occur.

Right, the 'good' outfitter says, "we have a 100% success rate on lions", and most people know, only about 30% of hunters booking lion are actually successful ....

Can't see the two numbers reconciling, with the "we book only up to the quota ... " idea.


I think GeorgeS would know the answer.

John - I don't know any guys who are 100% year, after year, after year. But for example, my best buddy in Zambia - Richard Bell Cross has been 90% since 2003, I know cause half the clients have been mine. In 9 yrs, I've had only 1 client leave without his lion from a hunt with Richard. In the past 3-4 yrs, I believe he has been 100% on 3 lions per year.

I don't know anyone who says they are always 100% on lion, but I'll also guarantee you lion hunts all across the Save Conservancy for example are 90% successful on average. So, I'm not real sure where you get the 30% success rate either????

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
And yet many outfits oversell their quotas assuming that some clients will not get everything on their list (like airlines overbook their flights expecting that some passengers will cancel).

This presents a financial risk for the client; if he/she has already booked flights and arranged vacation, a cancellation costs them money and time.

If the client goes on the hunt anyway, he/she will not get the desired species, resulting in the likely booking of yet another hunt.

An unscrupulous outfit may just walk you around in search of an animal whose quota was filled but never put you onto a shootable specimen.

George

If leopard, the trackers will urinate on the bait tree when you aren't looking.

Now tell me, when an outfitter says "We have 100% success rates on lion!"

And it is common only 30% of "lion hunters" only ever score, does that mean the "lion outfitter" oversells lion hunts by over 300 percent?!

What happens if the successful 30% is achieved half way through the season ...

John,

I think the answer to your what if's are what Aaron and Mark wrote. With reputable outfitters, overselling will not occur.

Right, the 'good' outfitter says, "we have a 100% success rate on lions", and most people know, only about 30% of hunters booking lion are actually successful ....

Can't see the two numbers reconciling, with the "we book only up to the quota ... " idea.


I think GeorgeS would know the answer.

John - I don't know any guys who are 100% year, after year, after year. But for example, my best buddy in Zambia - Richard Bell Cross has been 90% since 2003, I know cause half the clients have been mine. In 9 yrs, I've had only 1 client leave without his lion from a hunt with Richard. In the past 3-4 yrs, I believe he has been 100% on 3 lions per year.

I don't know anyone who says they are always 100% on lion, but I'll also guarantee you lion hunts all across the Save Conservancy for example are 90% successful on average. So, I'm not real sure where you get the 30% success rate either????

Aaron, I think the statement that Richard Bell Cross has been 100% on 3 lions per year is the confusing part and what John is referring to. Is he 100% for taking all 3 lions on quota with 3 and only 3 hunters, or is he 100% at taking all 3 lions on quota, taking into account that another hunter is booked if one does not get his cat?

Personally, I don't see why the outfitter would not book another hunter if an animal on quota fails. But only booking the additional hunter if that tag fails. And that is where the rub is! My point, and I think others including yourself, are saying that a client should have 0% chance of booking a hunt and then arriving in camp to find out there is no quota remaining. Only the number of hunters to cover the existing quota are booked. No oversales like airline seats. Then how do you ensure an outfitter doesn't walk the first hunter around so that he can sell more later in the season.

I don't know how to completely guarantee that honesty to a new client except through reputation over time. Your thoughts?

Aaron,

Didnt one of Bellcross's hunters fail last year? The client that came in after the guy the didnt connect got the cat from what I understand. I know because I was hoping to get a chance at a cat on my safari later in the year with Rich.

The Save is another story. Take Terry Anders on Savuli for example who failed on 2 and maybe 3 lion hunts last year.

The 30% success rate may be accurate. After failing on 2 lion hunts myself last year and seeing McCallum go 1 for 20 cats on quota last year does not help statistics. McCallum may have only had 15 people really hunting for lions, but 1 out of 15 is still not a great percentage.

With Tanzanias rules in place, it would be hard to imagine success rates going up. Does anyone know the success rates overall for lion hunting in Tanzania? How many 21 day licenses sold? How many lions were shot?

Todd - Richard never books more lion hunters than 3, that's what he has quota for, and that's what he sells. Trust me, Richard/Pro-Hunt doesn't have the time/availability to take 5-6, 21 days safaris/lion hunters per year.

Rich - If a guy wasn't successful with Richard last year, I did not know it. I do know virtually every lion hunt/hunter than he's booked/hunted since 2003. I've only sent 1 hunter that did not get a lion, and Richard did not re-book another hunter. Nor would he/does he normally. I didn't know you hunted with Pro-Hunt in 2011?

I think you'll see things change a bit in TZ, it will take some time for guys to really get a feel for exactly how the law will be implemented/applied.

I've personally shot 11 lions, on 14 lion hunts - 85% success. Maybe I'm just really lucky! What I can tell you is, I've booked alot of lion hunts in the past 10 yrs, and I am certain my client's overall success has been at least 80%.

Bottom line though - booking 5 lion hunts if you have only 3 lion on quota is just plain stealing, period! I for one, would not work with someone I knew was doing that.

Aaron, PM sent.

Aaron,

From what I understand Rich had an unsuccessful client. Another hunter who did not specifically book a lion hunt, but was able to pick up the tag as an opportunity. As an outfitter they are still 100%, but didn't go 3 for 3.

I did not hunt with Rich as I cancelled the hunt after the other hunter took the cat when it was available and I ended up going with McCallum instead. Hopefully Rich gets his area back and I can book with him in the future. We spoke about it at SCI this year.

You for sure are luckier than I was this year.

Any idea on Tanzania's success rate last year? I know what McCallum did and that was with Mike Fell saying there were more big cats in the area than had been there since he started hunting with McCallum. It wasn't for the lack of trying. Some clients hired bait cars, extra PH's etc and didn't get a sniff at a mature lion.

I do think there are some outfitters who start licking their chops when they realize they have an opportunity to resell a high dollar tag such as an ele or lion. Terry Anders was one of those PH's and was unsuccessful multiple times laughing all the way to the bank.

Outfitters should put their money where their mouths are. How about lower dailies and higher trophy fees on some of these hunts? Especially when they are getting resold.

Would I go back to TZ on a full price safari where lion success rates are so low? No! Would I go back with buffalo daily rates and a $30,000 trophy fee? Probably.

As an outfitter - last year we had 23 elephant on quota for our NG 47 area , but we shot 30 trophy elephant , we sold 30 tags , but what we did was purchase the additional tags from our neighbors , as soon as our quota was sold out and hunters continued to enquire about tags we first purchased on risk tags from our neighbors before selling them on , the key here though is that we had 30 tags secured for 30 hunters , seldom is there time in a season to resell a missed tag , in Tanzania we missed out on a lion and a leopard but did not and to be honest could not resell at such short notice . The only way this blurred zone could be fixed would be government to only issue the tags once, but we all know may a good deal for the hunter has come from a late discounted hunt , so the pendulum swings both ways , but the key is to know when the cabbie is taking the long route .

quote:

Originally posted by RichP470:
Aaron,

From what I understand Rich had an unsuccessful client. Another hunter who did not specifically book a lion hunt, but was able to pick up the tag as an opportunity. As an outfitter they are still 100%, but didn't go 3 for 3.

I did not hunt with Rich as I cancelled the hunt after the other hunter took the cat when it was available and I ended up going with McCallum instead. Hopefully Rich gets his area back and I can book with him in the future. We spoke about it at SCI this year.

You for sure are luckier than I was this year.

Any idea on Tanzania's success rate last year? I know what McCallum did and that was with Mike Fell saying there were more big cats in the area than had been there since he started hunting with McCallum. It wasn't for the lack of trying. Some clients hired bait cars, extra PH's etc and didn't get a sniff at a mature lion.

I do think there are some outfitters who start licking their chops when they realize they have an opportunity to resell a high dollar tag such as an ele or lion. Terry Anders was one of those PH's and was unsuccessful multiple times laughing all the way to the bank.

Outfitters should put their money where their mouths are. How about lower dailies and higher trophy fees on some of these hunts? Especially when they are getting resold.

Would I go back to TZ on a full price safari where lion success rates are so low? No! Would I go back with buffalo daily rates and a $30,000 trophy fee? Probably.

Rich - As for Pro-Hunt's lions last year, you could be right. I obviously talk to Richard alot, but honestly did not ask that question. Regardless, as I have mentioned, nobody goes 100% (first hunter) but assuredly the vast majority of Pro-Hunt's "first hunter" gets their lion. Like I say, I know because I have booked lots of em with Richard since 2003, and have had only 1 client leave without his lion.

Look, I too left a 21-day lion hunt with Richard in 2007 without a lion! But I saw 14 lions, passed on several males, cause we had 1 particular male we were trying to kill - but it didn't work out. So, is that really an un-successful hunt?

Really my whole point was, John claimed that overall lion hunting success (on first hunter) was 30%, and I assure you that just ain't true.

Now, Tanzania was a totally different story last year. The 6 yr old law had guys on pins/needles, and understandably so. You know I am good friends with Mike Fell, and we talked alot about in 6-8 weeks ago. He told me, he saw some great lions throughout the season - while lion hunting, lions that he certainly would have shot just the year before. But, because of the new law - he was hesitant to do so! Danny told me the same, he told me the story of one lion in particular. He said in hind-sight he should have shot it, as it was an exceptional cat - but he didn't. I heard the same thing from other TZ - PH's that I know. They just weren't sure what to do.

Fact is, I'm guiding my best client, and one of my best friends on a 21-day lion hunt in Tanzania, August 10 - 30, 2012. If we get a lion that I feel confident is 6, were gonna shoot it, period! But, it definitely makes the decision to shoot - a little more nerve racking. Remember, the PH is/can be fined $10,000.00 if the lion is determined to be under 6 yrs old.

Ok, my friend and you and I have known eachother for along time. Are you prepared to book another TZ hunt, one where we can hunt together in August 2013? Obviously its gotta be something you agree to, but I am certain I can get you a reasonable daily rate and a higher trophy fee if successful on a big lion, what do you say? Right now I am scheduled to guide a 28-day hunt July 1 - 28, 2013. So, I would be available immediately after that!

Aaron,

I am prepared and off to Bubye with Brent Hein in 13 for Lion. Their record is 100% on lion. The fact is there are too many there.

I am hoping for a change in luck! If I don't get it done there, I think I will swear off lion hunting!

Thanks for the offer. I'll consider TZ again possibly down the road. I would want to see the success rate higher than 1 out of 20 wherever I went.

14 has me chasing LDE in Cameroon and in 15 leaning towards mtn Nyala with Rousso's, but have not finalized anything. I am thinking 16 with Bellcross, but that is a ways away.

After that who knows where TZ will be. Fortunately I have been there 3x and hunted Masailand, the sellout, and the west.

quote:

Originally posted by RichP470:
Aaron,

I am prepared and off to Bubye with Brent Hein in 13 for Lion. Their record is 100% on lion. The fact is there are too many there.

I am hoping for a change in luck! If I don't get it done there, I think I will swear off lion hunting!

Thanks for the offer. I'll consider TZ again possibly down the road. I would want to see the success rate higher than 1 out of 20 wherever I went.

14 has me chasing LDE in Cameroon and in 15 leaning towards mtn Nyala with Rousso's, but have not finalized anything. I am thinking 16 with Bellcross, but that is a ways away.

After that who knows where TZ will be. Fortunately I have been there 3x and hunted Masailand, the sellout, and the west.

Ya, I knew you were hunting with Brent in the Bubye in 2013. No doubt, you will get a good lion there.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Todd - Richard never books more lion hunters than 3, that's what he has quota for, and that's what he sells. Trust me, Richard/Pro-Hunt doesn't have the time/availability to take 5-6, 21 days safaris/lion hunters per year.

Rich - If a guy wasn't successful with Richard last year, I did not know it. I do know virtually every lion hunt/hunter than he's booked/hunted since 2003. I've only sent 1 hunter that did not get a lion, and Richard did not re-book another hunter. Nor would he/does he normally. I didn't know you hunted with Pro-Hunt in 2011?

I think you'll see things change a bit in TZ, it will take some time for guys to really get a feel for exactly how the law will be implemented/applied.

I've personally shot 11 lions, on 14 lion hunts - 85% success. Maybe I'm just really lucky! What I can tell you is, I've booked alot of lion hunts in the past 10 yrs, and I am certain my client's overall success has been at least 80%.

Bottom line though - booking 5 lion hunts if you have only 3 lion on quota is just plain stealing, period! I for one, would not work with someone I knew was doing that.

Tz outfitters do this all the time and several have stated so on this website. their reasoning is that they are selling 21 day full bag safaris, not 21 day lion hunts. if an animal you particularly want( i.e. lion) has had its quota filled prior to your arrival, you are SOL. luckily(???) their overall success rate is generally low enough( per the regulations) that the chances of their lion quota being entirely shot before a late season hunt is low. this subject has come up numerous times here before and the Tz. outfitters ALWAYS respond that they are selling 21 day hunts - not 21 lion( pick your animal- ele, lesser kudu, roan, etc.) hunts. i suppose that the moral of the story is that if going to Tz to SPECIFICALLY hunt a low quota animal, make sure you go early in the season. anyone who books a 21 "full bag:" safari in Tz better realize that the term full bag may be a shifting target- at least with some outfitters who post here.