The Accurate Reloading Forums
End of the game
19 January 2013, 00:23
fairgameEnd of the game
In two strokes of a pen Africa has lost Botswana and Zambia to big game hunting. We are not talking years of negotiation we are talking a few minutes in a board room. This is a huge loss to hunting.
If the current trend continues hunting in Africa as we know it could end tomorrow, next week, next month?
I personally revelled in a model that was deemed failsafe. A community venture that was a first in Zambia. Applauded by the wildlife department and government. A hunting model that was owned by an African community.
Did anyone care? Not a stuff.
Chaps we sing and dance about the antis but they are winning and if Zambia and Bots can fall so quickly then what about the rest?
Seriously we need to come up with some solution to protect the game.
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19 January 2013, 00:38
Bryce DillaboughAt the end of the day, this still has to be a money issue. Who is getting paid by who to make these decisions to get their way? I just don't believe that these decisions are made simply by knee-jerk, anti-hunting, emotional sentiments.
19 January 2013, 00:59
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by Bryce Dillabough:
At the end of the day, this still has to be a money issue. Who is getting paid by who to make these decisions to get their way? I just don't believe that these decisions are made simply by knee-jerk, anti-hunting, emotional sentiments.
I expressed that same exact thought to two booking agents I chat with throughout the year.
As crazy as it may sound and as unsavory as it may be to some, perhaps those who preserve habitat and wildlife through hunting dollars need to spend some of those dollars convincing the powers at hand in Africa that it's "personally" profitable for them to continue to allow hunting in their countries.
Feel free to read between my lines.
19 January 2013, 01:42
A.DahlgrenDamn sad over these two places that I have visited but never had the chance to hunt.
I have been told or heard that in Zambia greed had a big part with the decision to do.
Is that just rumours or does it hold some truth ?
19 January 2013, 02:06
Use Enough GunWho's next? What's to hold Zimbabwe and South Africa and Namibia and Mozambique back from doing the very same thing?
19 January 2013, 02:12
CaracalWhat's your plan now for royal kafue, Andrew?
19 January 2013, 02:30
shakariquote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
As crazy as it may sound and as unsavory as it may be to some, perhaps those who preserve habitat and wildlife through hunting dollars need to spend some of those dollars convincing the powers at hand in Africa that it's "personally" profitable for them to continue to allow hunting in their countries.
Feel free to read between my lines.
Don't hold your breath on that one.
There's no way you'll ever outbid the antis.
I appreciate the hunting world has lots of money but they don't have as much as the antis can raise.
19 January 2013, 05:44
jdollarwhat stops it in Namibia is that sustained wildlife utilization for the benefit of local communities is enshrined in their constitution. thereby a constitutional amendment would need to occur- never an easy process, even in Africa..
Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
19 January 2013, 08:36
fujotupu"Chaps we sing and dance about the antis but they are winning and if Zambia and Bots can fall so quickly then what about the rest?"
Where did I hear something similar along the lines of that phrase?
Every time it is mentioned or mention is made about negative publicity (gory photos, film clips, etc.) which may be used to the benfit of the antis the author of the post gets barrow loads of crap piled on him!
How many times has it been said that it is the beginning of the end?
Yeah well, dreaming time is over! We the hunting comunity unfortunately do NOT have any power over the "powers that be" - the ones who at the stroke of a pen decide our fate.
19 January 2013, 08:47
cal pappasGents:
The solution is simple. Those that have an interest in hunting--PHs, clients, taxidermists, etc.--need to pool a large amount of cash and offer it to whom ever has the power to reinstate hunting. I know this sounds stupid, but what is the best way to get things done in much of Africa?
Cal
_______________________________
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www.CalPappas.comwww.CalPappas.blogspot.com1994 Zimbabwe
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1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation
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2012 Australia
2013 South Africa
2013 Zimbabwe
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2016 Zimbabwe
2017 Zimbabwe
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______________________________
19 January 2013, 08:58
Frostbitquote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
The solution is simple. Those that have an interest in hunting--PHs, clients, taxidermists, etc.--need to pool a large amount of cash and offer it to whom ever has the power to reinstate hunting. I know this sounds stupid, but what is the best way to get things done in much of Africa?
Cal
I see you have successfully read "between my lines" above.
19 January 2013, 09:28
fujotupuquote:
Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
The solution is simple. Those that have an interest in hunting--PHs, clients, taxidermists, etc.--need to pool a large amount of cash and offer it to whom ever has the power to reinstate hunting. I know this sounds stupid, but what is the best way to get things done in much of Africa?
Cal
The solution is far from it being so simple - one needs to consider that the same people who make such decisions do not occupy these posts 'ad infinitum' - so can be in power for a short period in which they can pull a deal and comfortably retire giving rise to a situation where anti and hunters in their war to ban and reinstate hunting use their finances to enrich others without getting anywhere.
The alternative "solution" of creating specific game farms (killing fields) to be used for sport hunting will also leaad to nowhere - the antis just don't want God's creatures, large and small, to be killed - period.
Their's is the anthem: "All Things Bright & Beautiful" - they probably sing it every morning at the breakfast table!
19 January 2013, 09:45
londonhunterI am so privileged to have hunted Zambia last year with Thor
I left a large deposit to return this May
Out of all the places I have visited in Africa
Zambia is very very special
In my formative years I worked as a volunteer and travelled west Africa extensively
I never hunted then
From what i have observed
Africa is all about who you know and benefits in kind
The right lubrication in the right place
Zambia and Botswana can turn around in a blink of a eye
What is SCI doing about this ?
What has been discussed / planned at the convention
Those who attend apart from picking up leaflets and getting intoxicated please let us mortals know
19 January 2013, 11:18
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
Damn sad over these two places that I have visited but never had the chance to hunt.
I have been told or heard that in Zambia greed had a big part with the decision to do.
Is that just rumours or does it hold some truth ?
Apparently the tender system was flawed and this resulted in Government investigation. Their findings led them to close down the tender process and indeed hunting until an audit has been completed. The wildlife department is currently being overhauled which is a good thing.
The hunting and associated service industry has been assured that hunting will resume in 2014 under a well managed and regulated system.
However my point is that Governments have the power to extinguish an industry overnight and we are powerless to protect ourselves.
Maybe Namibia is the solution and we should be looking at ways to convince Governments to return the ownership of wildlife to the people.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
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19 January 2013, 11:47
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by Caracal:
What's your plan now for royal kafue, Andrew?
Not sure and one idea is to invite investors as shareholders and to create a private game reserve and for them a second home in Africa. The model would need to attract people that want and will encourage the social responsibilities of the Kaindu community.
The initial idea was to incorporate a number of activities both consumptive and non consumptive of which impacts favourably on the land and community.
This is why the hunting ban is such a fuck up as it took two years to get this model installed and indeed to change the mindset of the community. For the first time they received an income from their lands.
Obviously the land and the environment is of significant value and I will continue to pursue other avenues of income and to protect the game.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
19 January 2013, 12:47
fairgamequote:
Originally posted by shakari:
quote:
Originally posted by Frostbit:
As crazy as it may sound and as unsavory as it may be to some, perhaps those who preserve habitat and wildlife through hunting dollars need to spend some of those dollars convincing the powers at hand in Africa that it's "personally" profitable for them to continue to allow hunting in their countries.
Feel free to read between my lines.
Don't hold your breath on that one.
There's no way you'll ever outbid the antis.
I appreciate the hunting world has lots of money but they don't have as much as the antis can raise.
I did note that LIONAID website claimed it had influenced the ban of cat hunting in Zambia and FUNDS PERMITTING would be coming to Zambia to further their cause. This would indicate that they are hardly flush.
I suspect many anti hunting organisations absorb much of their funds internally.
My next business idea is a Lion Adopt where as you adopt a Lion cub in the wild and you name it and receive a digital weekly update along with photographs of your Lion. You get a framed certificate of ownership and a stream of begging letters requesting funding.
These funds will be used to throw glitzy cocktail parties and will enable me a fantastic salary and to purchase essential items such as the latest Landcruiser and boat. Although not qualified I could become Africa's Mr Lion or Simba for short. My charity would be non profit which would legalise the expenditure on myself.
I would grow my hair long and then troll sites such as these and threaten bodily harm to the families of those who dare to hunt my precious Lions.
ROYAL KAFUE LTD
Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com
Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144
Instagram - kafueroyal
19 January 2013, 20:45
Milo ShanghaiJust bear in mind that the local politicians/civil servants stand to make more cash from an unregulated market than one that is organised and above board.
Officially ban everything and then take a bribe for allowing it to occur.
The added advantage of this is that they cut out the normally white professional hunters and agents.
19 January 2013, 20:52
IndiIMHO
Each case is a case.
I never heard about fraudulent tender processes and big corruption problems in Botswana hunting community .
I heard exactly the contrary in Zambia or even in Tanzania.
Someone post " hunting will resume in 2014 under a well managed and regulated system " - and this is for me a fulcral point .
Lots of times we hear that hunting activities are not bringing the necessary funds for the countries - is this reasonable ? I think in most cases it is.
Mozambique revenues from hunting in 2011 was $ 670.000,00.
And this includes animal license fees, client's hunting licenses, Ph's licenses and concession fees.
Honestly - how can they have a good control on hunting activities in all senses with such an amount of money? How can a country give the necessary attention to all hunting and conservation aspects with such an amount of money? How can a country , with this amount of money have minimum control over poaching or monitorization of the concession operators?
Total quota for elephant was 95 and paid licenses were 24.
Total quota for lion was 56 and paid licenses were 18.
Total quota for leopard was 106 and paid licenses were 42.
It is hard for me to believe in these figures and also for the Mozambique Government that pointed out in a recent meeting with the operators that they knew about some of them to overshoot or to shot without paying.
Around 40% of the operators are not presenting the activity report ( mandatory) at the end of every season.
My point is - there are extremely good operators in every country but also shitty ones that do not deserve a second chance .......but they are still out there and this is not only in Mozambique.
One of them was even caught with American clients inside the Marromeu Complex and just because he is " influent"" is still operating......and selling in Sci exhibitions!!!! The same one that had to run quickly from Zimbabwe a few years back!
This kind of operators must imho be totally banned from this industry because they are only doing well to themselves and not to the communities where they hunt nor to the hunting in general.
The whole process is not right from the beggining and unless the governments & hunting organizations are more assertive , disciplinary, decisive and honest , hunting community will not survive.
Of course this is only one of the urgent needs of our industry - much more are needed but not for today's post.
Cheers
19 January 2013, 21:03
tendramsquote:
Originally posted by Milo Shanghai:
Just bear in mind that the local politicians/civil servants stand to make more cash from an unregulated market than one that is organised and above board.
Officially ban everything and then take a bribe for allowing it to occur.
In other words, informal corruption pays more than what is essentially "formalized" corruption in a regulated market. I agree 100%.
19 January 2013, 21:35
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Indi:
IMHO
Each case is a case.
I never heard about fraudulent tender processes and big corruption problems in Botswana hunting community .
I heard exactly the contrary in Zambia or even in Tanzania.
Someone post " hunting will resume in 2014 under a well managed and regulated system " - and this is for me a fulcral point .
Lots of times we hear that hunting activities are not bringing the necessary funds for the countries - is this reasonable ? I think in most cases it is.
Mozambique revenues from hunting in 2011 was $ 670.000,00.
And this includes animal license fees, client's hunting licenses, Ph's licenses and concession fees.
Honestly - how can they have a good control on hunting activities in all senses with such an amount of money? How can a country give the necessary attention to all hunting and conservation aspects with such an amount of money? How can a country , with this amount of money have minimum control over poaching or monitorization of the concession operators?
Total quota for elephant was 95 and paid licenses were 24.
Total quota for lion was 56 and paid licenses were 18.
Total quota for leopard was 106 and paid licenses were 42.
It is hard for me to believe in these figures and also for the Mozambique Government that pointed out in a recent meeting with the operators that they knew about some of them to overshoot or to shot without paying.
Around 40% of the operators are not presenting the activity report ( mandatory) at the end of every season.
My point is - there are extremely good operators in every country but also shitty ones that do not deserve a second chance .......but they are still out there and this is not only in Mozambique.
One of them was even caught with American clients inside the Marromeu Complex and just because he is " influent"" is still operating......and selling in Sci exhibitions!!!! The same one that had to run quickly from Zimbabwe a few years back!
This kind of operators must imho be totally banned from this industry because they are only doing well to themselves and not to the communities where they hunt nor to the hunting in general.
The whole process is not right from the beggining and unless the governments & hunting organizations are more assertive , disciplinary, decisive and honest , hunting community will not survive.
Of course this is only one of the urgent needs of our industry - much more are needed but not for today's post.
Cheers
Successful hunting projects should not be measured solely in terms of revenue returned to government coffers. It appears that this is the way some govt's look at it but there are so many other benefits that are not measured by the return. It appears Moz is seeing those benefits??
19 January 2013, 22:02
IndiMatt - I agree totally with you on the "" colateral"" benefits and i am sure they pay attention to them BUT you know in 2008 the number of hunters was 530 and in 2011 this number decreased to 335 which means that collateral benefits are also falling althought not necessarily in the same proportion.
Please do not misunderstand me , i was trying to point one fact only that is crucial but not the only one for the survival of hunting which is a " well managed and regulated system ".
I am a hunter and i will defend hunting untill i die but on the other hand i see many bad thinghs done also by US and not only from governments don't you think ?
19 January 2013, 22:15
Matt Grahamquote:
Originally posted by Indi:
Matt - I agree totally with you on the "" colateral"" benefits and i am sure they pay attention to them BUT you know in 2008 the number of hunters was 530 and in 2011 this number decreased to 335 which means that collateral benefits are also falling althought not necessarily in the same proportion.
Please do not misunderstand me , i was trying to point one fact only that is crucial but not the only one for the survival of hunting which is a " well managed and regulated system ".
I am a hunter and i will defend hunting untill i die but on the other hand i see many bad thinghs done also by US and not only from governments don't you think ?
Oh totally, absolutely!! Which country were those figures from? Moz?
19 January 2013, 22:15
Caracalquote:
Originally posted by fairgame:
My next business idea is a Lion Adopt where as you adopt a Lion cub in the wild and you name it and receive a digital weekly update along with photographs of your Lion. You get a framed certificate of ownership and a stream of begging letters requesting funding.
These funds will be used to throw glitzy cocktail parties and will enable me a fantastic salary and to purchase essential items such as the latest Landcruiser and boat. Although not qualified I could become Africa's Mr Lion or Simba for short. My charity would be non profit which would legalise the expenditure on myself.
I would grow my hair long and then troll sites such as these and threaten bodily harm to the families of those who dare to hunt my precious Lions.
Sounds like a plan
19 January 2013, 22:19
Matt GrahamOh sorry yes Moz... obviously. This drop may also be in part due to the world economy...
20 January 2013, 02:03
jeff hSpoke to guy in Charlotte today. He said the minister that shut down hunting is coming to the Reno show. Some committee was formed to study issue in zambia. All hunter on committee.
He said this was very positive
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20 January 2013, 02:23
Matt GrahamThat is good news - I am sure SCI will roll out the red carpet and help to have the situation rectified.
20 January 2013, 03:37
ndorobo1sci doesn't need to roll out the red caret. They just need to roll out the dead presidents.
21 January 2013, 06:38
Tim FerrallI believe that the gent with the "between the lines" comment may have been referencing a single "dead President."
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson
21 January 2013, 11:56
zambianGuys I for one would like to see Bwana fairgame with long Hippy hair
SOME FACTS.....
a new ZAWA board has been put into place
Chaired By Mr Guy Robinson I personally know him and he is a gent from the old school also owner of a game ranch and a hunter
Y Mitha also a successful businessman and a hunter
W Kabimba our Justice minister and also partial to hunters
Sylvia Masebo our minister of tourism is supposedly on her way to Dallas to assure stakeholders that she did not ban hunting but only suspended it for 12 months to allow Zambia to get its house in order (I was in the "BOARDROOM" when this decision was taken)
I think all is not lost there is hope with the new board in place.
21 January 2013, 12:03
Andrew McLarenquote:
.......................
I think all is not lost there is hope with the new board in place.
A bit of light at the end of the tunnel! A straw of hope to catch! My best wishes and prayers are with you guys to tide over these bad times!
Andrew McLarenProfessional Hunter and Hunting Outfitter since 1974.
http://www.mclarensafaris.com The home page to go to for custom planning of ethical and affordable hunting of plains game in South Africa!
Enquire about any South African hunting directly from
andrew@mclarensafaris.com After a few years of participation on forums, I have learned that:One can cure: Lack of knowledge – by instruction. Lack of skills – by practice. Lack of experience – by time doing it.
One cannot cure:Stupidity – nothing helps! Anti hunting sentiments – nothing helps! Put-‘n-Take Outfitters – money rules!
My very long ago ancestors needed and loved to eat meat.
Today I still hunt! 21 January 2013, 15:54
zambiansorry guys should have said reno instead of dallas in my post
21 January 2013, 22:13
FrostbitIf she is still there Friday or Saturday I will buy her a copy of the African Hunting Gazette and request she read the article on page 55 in order to see what hunting conservation can do for wild Africa, its local communites, and the wildlife in general.
If any of you see her first feel free to beat me to the punch.