I'm passing no judgement since I have no African experience(I hope to have lots in the future), but in your opinion if someone shoots a lioness, cow elephant, and a green rhino hunt, along with their buff and leapord does this still count as taking the big five? Not trying to stir the pot, just wondering.

The "green" rhino hunt alone disqualifies it from consideration.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The "green" rhino hunt alone disqualifies it from consideration.

George

According to whom?

Jeff

Plus 1 on the whom!! The record books accept it, if you choose not too, doesn't make it so.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The "green" rhino hunt alone disqualifies it from consideration.

George

According to whom?

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
The "green" rhino hunt alone disqualifies it from consideration.

George

WTF George? A green hunt is NOT a disqualifier and it does count towards the Big 5. It is also, when done correctly, more exciting and potentially more dangerous than shooting a Rhino. It requires a much closer stalk on the animal than does a shoot. It is also a way to contribute to the propagation of the species and to encourage the farmers that there is a value to participating in the recovery of a once endangered species that was close to extinction.

A green hunt also makes the taking of a Rhino possible for those whose annual disposable income is less than that of the very wealthy of this world. That is not a bad thing. If it was not for green hunts, the only people capable of achieving the Big 5 would be those of unlimited wealth. And every Rhino killed is removed from the gene pool permanently. Anybody know where a "wild" Rhino may be legally hunted and killed in todays world?

My Big 5 includes a green Rhino and I make no apologies about it.

Unfortunately the Green hunts have been outlawed in RSA of late.

Mark

Ms. Shumba and the tuskless are where I get derailed.

Once I came close to shooting a problem lioness and euthanizing a snared teenage elephant on a hunt where I'd already shot leopard and buffalo. Ultimately, it did not work out. However, had that materialized, I cannot imagine that I would have claimed to have taken the Big Four. It would be more like a big four*.

A cow elephant is much more likely to try to kill you than a bull. That alone makes it qualify for the big five in my estimation.

If you only hunt trophy bull elephant your a wimp!

465H&H

quote:

According to whom?

According to me. The OP asked for opinions on the matter.

SCI is not the be all and end all of hunting, although they are well-known.

For those who do not remember, there was a time when only black rhino was considered to be part of "The Big Five". SCI accepted white rhino entries into its Record Book of African Big Game Animals, but did not count it toward its "Big Five".

SCI Members who had taken elephant, lion, buff, and leopard lobbied long and hard to change this, as black rhino hunting had closed and white rhinos were becoming more affordable. SCI probably realized that they'd closed off a possible revenue stream, and rejiggered its "Big Five" entries to accept the white rhino, taking pains to split off the "real" Big Five entries incorporating the black rhino (answering complaints from those who'd completed the Big Five "properly"). I do not know if that is still the case, as I dropped out of SCI years ago.

SCI accepts "green rhino hunts" for both black and white rhino in order to permit its members to "achieve" their Big Five, thereby earning their Levels/Inner Circles/Pinnacles of Achievement, etc., while making money from the awards fees.

I understand some of the conservation arguments for "green rhino hunts", but I would neither take one nor consider a darted animal to be a trophy. YMMV.

How many would take these darting excursions if SCI did not accept the animals into its Record Book?

George

If Green Rhino counts do Pink Elephants count too?

I think the answer is simple....personal choice. I won't/don't "enter" my animals, but yes, i would consider a green rhino part of the big 5.

Interesting questions. Ultimately, it's a matter of opinion.

But the "Big 5" is an African trophy hunting concept. So, IMHO, one must look at it from that perspective.

For purists - and I mean purists among the class of hunters commonly called "trophy hunters" - there's no longer any possibility of bagging the "Big 5" at all.

Free ranging, wild animals are what the trophy hunter must have.

Black rhinos do not run wild anymore, as they once did. For that matter, neither do white rhinos. So, rhinos need to be stricken from the list.

There's only the "Big 4" nowadays.

The purist trophy hunter also hunts and kills only big, old males.

No females.

As for "green" hunting, the whole concept is anathema to a trophy hunter. To such a hunter, the consummation of hunting any animal means that the quarry must be killed. Killing is part of hunting - not necessarily the most important element, but an essential part.

Having said all of that, it's still something, IMHO, to manage to hunt and kill at least one representative old male elephant, lion, buffalo and leopard.

I say again, this is only one perspective, but it's the traditional or classic one, I think.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Ms. Shumba and the tuskless are where I get derailed.

Once I came close to shooting a problem lioness and euthanizing a snared teenage elephant on a hunt where I'd already shot leopard and buffalo. Ultimately, it did not work out. However, had that materialized, I cannot imagine that I would have claimed to have taken the Big Four. It would be more like a big four*.

I agree with Will. I don't consider a female ele or lion to be as difficult to hunt as a male. But then like George said, this is just my opinion.

I would never be able to fill the big 5, I just don't see making that kind of money, or spending it that way. That aside, I wouldn't care about SCI's acknowledgment, it would be for me.

as far as green rhino, if it's darting the rhino, and it's a truly wild rhino, I wouldn't knock a guy for wanting to count it, as mentioned, it supposed to be more dangerous and more work. I liken it to counting ku. I'm not a rhino person, so wouldn't be interested in it myself, but would love to watch somebody else do it

Big Four is the modern realism of it, but doesn't have the same ring to it. Maybe we need to add a more realistic species to it so that it can still be "five", how about "warlord" or "atrocious dictator". If you get a mature lion, leopard, buff, tusker and say Mugabe you get the 21st century big 5?

For me my daydreams include the buffalo, lion, leopard, hippo, elephant. I'll call it the big 4.5

Red

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

According to whom?

According to me. George

\

I am sorry, I must have missed your annointing. Does your ring need to be kissed when proffered?

Jeff

It has been suggested from time to time, that since the ability to take a free range wild Rhino (White or Black) simply doesn't exist anymore, that the Hippo be included to constitute the new Big 5. Doesn't work for me - I have a couple Hippos already - but like everyone here, that's JMO.

What I believe is so sad about the recent decision by the RSA DVM association to suspend the use of the drug used in green hunts, is that without the incentive of selling green Rhino hunts, the farmers may cease to support them. If that happens, the Rhino will once again face extinction within the next 50 years.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I don't consider a female ele or lion to be as difficult to hunt as a male.

That may be true for the lioness but not so for the ele cow. I am certain that any PH that regularly hunts elephant for living will tell you that hunting a cow elephant is much more dangerous than hunting a bull. The only thing that makes hunting bulls more difficult is trying to find big ivory.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Unfortunately the Green hunts have been outlawed in RSA of late.

Mark

Probably because they are not so "Green". The ones I have heard about (no personal experience and never will) are if true total BS. The animals were diying from have been drugged so many times from over hunting. I suppose they could have a rehab program though.

I think too much emphasis is put on the "Big 5" and what it supposedly means. To me it is a lost dream because as far as I know there are no true fair chase hunts for wild black rhino. Not sure if you can fairly say any white rhino hunts are true fair chase. There are none in which the animals are truely free ranging in the sense that no one knows generally where they are from the start.

For me I would rather do something else than rhino because they are endangered and I am not driven by things like be able to say I have hunted the Big 5. Maybe 5 each of the other 4 would be nice though

Well since it against the law to shoot a black,and killing a white is as easy as shooting a ford in a parking lot. I was 15 feet away from the dart I did in a mexican stand off
frozen we were behind a very small bush. So from my experence darting is times 10 harder than killing.

female lion easier to kill than male. Female ele. has a little more dangerous.

I count my dart, don't give a rat's ass what other say.

I have heard, unofficially, that there is a possibility that two black rhino permits MAY be issued by MET in Namibia. Perhaps a Namibian PH could substantiate this, if true. Also, white rhino is available on a limited basis in Namibia. Whether a CITES import permit to the U.S. is available, I don't know.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

According to whom?

According to me. George

\

I am sorry, I must have missed your annointing. Does your ring need to be kissed when proffered?

Jeff

The OP asked for opinions; I gave mine. If you don't like it, move on to another thread.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

For purists - and I mean purists among the class of hunters commonly called "trophy hunters" - there's no longer any possibility of bagging the "Big 5" at all.

Free ranging, wild animals are what the trophy hunter must have.

MRLexma

Your sure are sharp!

BTW, it is not just the purists who insist on free ranging, wild animals.

quote:

Originally posted by T man:
in your opinion if someone shoots a lioness, cow elephant, and a green rhino hunt, along with their buff and leapord does this still count as taking the big five?

Since we are talking about opinions... If you include rhino, you might as well include canned lion.

But in this day and age the big 5, or big 4 or big 6 doesn't mean a dang thing. With enough money a 15 year old kid could take the big five in 12 days of hunting.

It is no real feat to take the big five.

I took three of the five on one hunt in Zimbabwe. It wasn't hard, but it sure was fun!

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

According to whom?

According to me. George

\

I am sorry, I must have missed your annointing. Does your ring need to be kissed when proffered?

Jeff

The OP asked for opinions; I gave mine. If you don't like it, move on to another thread.

George

I like this thread just fine. In your original answer at no time did you indicate that this was YOUR opinion. It is just that, an opinion.

Jeff

Historicaly the Big Five were black rhino, elephant, lion, leopard and cape buffalo. Sex or hunting method were not required except that it was understood that they must be taken by fair chase standards. Any requirements beyond those are personal opinion and or choice.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
I like this thread just fine. In your original answer at no time did you indicate that this was YOUR opinion. It is just that, an opinion.

Jeff

The OP asked for opinions; unless no one else read the question fully, every response would be someone's opinion.

I'll accept your apology as soon as you proffer it.

George

Cling to that big guy.

Yeah, I didn't think you were man enough to admit you were out of line.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Yeah, I didn't think you were man enough to admit you were out of line.

George

If not being man enough includes refusing to acknowledge authoritarian arrogance then feel free to sew lace on my panties.

How does one become a moderator? Can the position be applied for? Does it relate to number of posts etc. Or is it the big man himself that decides?

Curious.

Laugh out loud

quote:

Originally posted by T man:
I'm passing no judgement since I have no African experience(I hope to have lots in the future), but in your opinion if someone shoots a lioness, cow elephant, and a green rhino hunt, along with their buff and leapord does this still count as taking the big five? Not trying to stir the pot, just wondering.

Who really cares? It should be a personal decision not a "I got mine" decision.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I don't consider a female ele or lion to be as difficult to hunt as a male.

That may be true for the lioness but not so for the ele cow. I am certain that any PH that regularly hunts elephant for living will tell you that hunting a cow elephant is much more dangerous than hunting a bull. The only thing that makes hunting bulls more difficult is trying to find big ivory.

Please spare me the danger quotient. My other hobbies are much more dangerous than hunting cow elephant.

Truth is, if you want to whack a female ele, they are all over the place. What is so hard about that???

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by T man:
in your opinion if someone shoots a lioness, cow elephant, and a green rhino hunt, along with their buff and leapord does this still count as taking the big five?

Since we are talking about opinions... If you include rhino, you might as well include canned lion.

But in this day and age the big 5, or big 4 or big 6 doesn't mean a dang thing. With enough money a 15 year old kid could take the big five in 12 days of hunting.

It is no real feat to take the big five.

I took three of the five on one hunt in Zimbabwe. It wasn't hard, but it sure was fun!

I took the big 4 in a period of 8 days. Thanks Fulvio!!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
As for "green" hunting, the whole concept is anathema to a trophy hunter. To such a hunter, the consummation of hunting any animal means that the quarry must be killed. Killing is part of hunting - not necessarily the most important element, but an essential part.

"One does not hunt in order to anesthetize; on the contrary, one anesthetizes in order to have hunted."
- Jose Ortega y Greenie

:: :: ::

As a hunter, you hunt the species you choose to hunt or can Afford to hunt, It needs no endorsement from others/or any Sanctioning body.
There is a certain "ELITEISM" in some circles that will marginalise ,or trivialise others achievements. It doesnt matter a whit if it is a male or female of the species, AS LONG AS YOU ENJOYED & TREASURE THAT EXPERIENCE, just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I don't consider a female ele or lion to be as difficult to hunt as a male.

That may be true for the lioness but not so for the ele cow. I am certain that any PH that regularly hunts elephant for living will tell you that hunting a cow elephant is much more dangerous than hunting a bull. The only thing that makes hunting bulls more difficult is trying to find big ivory.

Please spare me the danger quotient. My other hobbies are much more dangerous than hunting cow elephant.

Truth is, if you want to whack a female ele, they are all over the place. What is so hard about that???

What is so hard about shooting a trophy bull elephant? Just go to Botswana, drive around until you spot a bull that you like from the Cruiser and walk a hundred yards or so and pop it. Seems like a common occurance there as seen on Saturday morning TV.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I don't consider a female ele or lion to be as difficult to hunt as a male.

That may be true for the lioness but not so for the ele cow. I am certain that any PH that regularly hunts elephant for living will tell you that hunting a cow elephant is much more dangerous than hunting a bull. The only thing that makes hunting bulls more difficult is trying to find big ivory.

Please spare me the danger quotient. My other hobbies are much more dangerous than hunting cow elephant.

Truth is, if you want to whack a female ele, they are all over the place. What is so hard about that???

Opinions are only as valuable as the person that offers them. I value the views of folks like Buzz Charlton, Ivan Carter and others that have hunted elephant for a living for some time and know of what they speak. As for your opinion, well let's just say, I am unmoved and leave it at that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeorgeS:


I know I'll be in the minority, but that's okay I am with George on this one.

I guess I'll have an early beer and watch the rocks fly!

The Big 5 is just a number, isn't it?

I could spend what it'd cost me to buy a house to plug a white rhino, but why?

Is a white rhino even remotely dangerous? On a statistical basis, coyotes are more of a hazard.