quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

Exactly. Simply foolish to try to analogize a 100+ pound elephant to a buffalo or whitetail. How many 100+ pound elephant are left in the world, less than a hundred, less than five hundred? They evoke a different set of emotions in both non-hunters and hunters alike. Hunting them, in particular the large park bulls, will do nothing but bring condemnation and negative attention to hunting. How is that a good thing long term?

Clearly I am not opposed to elephant hunting generally. In the last couple of years, Leon Kachelhoffer guided a client on a hunt in a remote area in Namibia and they shot a 100 pounder. To my knowledge the area the bull was shot in was no where near a national park or reserve, nor could anyone recall ever having seen the bull before. While there was outage regarding that hunt as well, that hunt at least seems defensible to me. Hunting giant park bulls that wander out of the park . . . try defending that hunt to the public.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

Exactly. Simply foolish to try to analogize a 100+ pound elephant to a buffalo or whitetail. How many 100+ pound elephant are left in the world, less than a hundred, less than five hundred? They evoke a different set of emotions in both non-hunters and hunters alike. Hunting them, in particular the large park bulls, will do nothing but bring condemnation and negative attention to hunting. How is that a good thing long term?

Clearly I am not opposed to elephant hunting generally. In the last couple of years, Leon Kachelhoffer guided a client on a hunt in a remote area in Namibia and they shot a 100 pounder. To my knowledge the area the bull was shot in was no where near a national park or reserve, nor could anyone recall ever having seen the bull before. While there was outage regarding that hunt as well, that hunt at least seems defensible to me. Hunting giant park bulls that wander out of the park . . . try defending that hunt to the public.

I have some pretty firm beliefs as to where we, as hunters fit in the natural world. Being hunters/conservationists, we walk dangerously close to being environmentalists. Point is, we desire a balance of nature and wildlife populations being healthy and can be sustainable enough for there to be some off-take.

With that, we carry a burden. A burden to realize that at some point, some species need our protections, even protection from ourselves.

Would anyone here say that we there should be a Tigers on quota in India? I bet not. We all want a world with Tigers still roaming the wilds.

These bulls, we speak about are the same. I, and it seems a fair amount of others, think it's time to be able to protect/enjoy these unique and genetically special animals. These thought come from a place of conservation, not anti.

However, should we not show some restraint, we may lose the greater war. We will never convince enough of the population that shooting Elephants, is somehow good for Elephants. I've tried.

We need to be the adults in the room. Being "in your face" will get us nowhere.

Craig Boddington once stated somewhere, there are/were ~15,000 International hunters in the US. That demographic is far to small to convince, anyone of anything. Politicians care only about re-election. Our numbers even if we all resided in one congressional district, mean nothing. For a politician or un-elected official to take our position is career suicide.

As both Mike and Storm stated, I'm an Elephant hunter as well.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
they are coming after us and if we give an inch, we are just fighting a retreating battle we will inevitably lose.

Fact^^^

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
there is almost nothing you can say to change people's mind from anti- to pro- elephant hunting. the very best you could ever expect is ambivalence. and that will only happen when there is a net positive to the animals, people, and landscape. Otherwise you are pissing up a rope.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sorry, no amount of PR however well done is going to convince John or Jane Q. Public

Both^^^very true

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
Anti-hunters will always be anti-hunters, but we are deluding ourselves if we don't realize that hunts like this are a platform/soapbox for the ardent anti-hunters to get more converts.

Also^^^100% true

DSC, SCI, APHA, etc. need to seriously look at hiring a proper PR firm to handle how we deal with scenarios like this, and more generally how we engage the wider public. I don't disagree that there are flaws with the AG letter, but we have to clearly, calmly and professionally counter these in consistent written and visual (i.e. short videos) communication pieces. I think we need to match that PR work with not shooting ourselves in the foot/undermining ourselves with hunts like this

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I prioritize the public perception over the other views.

As stated by Storms…perception is reality when dealing with the public. That rule has made me successful for years of managing a large high-profile equine veterinary practice that also deals with the sensitive subject of equine deaths in recreational use.

Back in the early 2000s I started a non-profit to do just what Storms proposed. My org’s (Lion Conservation Task Force, Inc.) goal was to unite science with hunting and change public perception of lion hunting and prevent the up listing of lion to endangered with USFWS.

The org was quite successful in many battles and was able to unite scientists with hunters and get an agreed definition of a Huntable Male Lion.

That said…we were NEVER able to make inroads at all with public perception. The negativity with the general public grows by the day. Soon we began to see our ultimate goal was an exercise in futility and I quit pouring personal assets into it and finally dissolved it.

For the short term…Storms is probably correct and his suggestions are likely the only way to prolong our heritage in African Big Game Hunting.

Lavaca and Safari2 are also correct that the science generally supports our side…with caveats. But, as I found out while running the LCTF, science and facts carry little water when trying to change public perception on hunting. And NO PR in world will help when the end result is the killing of an animal.

Personally I have come to believe that there is no long term solution in the General Society we exist in today.

Without some sort of re-set/reality-check in our Society…big game hunting is destined to become history despite best efforts. While I am in-principle against appeasement…spot-approach appeasement along with keeping a low profile seem to be our ONLY options for prolonging our demise…sadly.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

Good points here.

Let's state the obvious - many who have hunted elephant call it the 'ultimate' hunt. A hunt isn't the 'ultimate' unless the animal itself, along with how it is hunted, stands well above the more common game with which they share the landscape. I don't hear people dreaming, saving, remortgaging to hunt an impala. Point being, we already see that the intrinsic value of an elephant is much greater than the more common game, including buffalo - no matter how big. I would think being smart about making sure these rarer versions of the ultimate game remain on the ground (anywhere - huntable or not) would be a goal for any conservation-minded hunter. It sure is with me. Where I live, it's common to have maximum antler point restrictions on deer and elk - selectivity isn't a novel concept.

When I was a kid I used to watch my grandfather fly fish on a little creek in Virginia. I can't say I remember him catching any. But after he was finished, we would go to a local trout farm and haul them in by the bucket and take them home to fry them up. The comparison isn't quite the same, but it seems intentionally targeting bulls in park-adjacent areas is well, knowing that your odds increase to get what you desire. Is that an ultimate experience?

I'm not an elephant hunter, but support it. And if I ever found myself able to hunt elephant, I would hunt only one. I completely understand the 'never give an inch' mentality. I understand leftists/anti-hunters pretty well. What I don't understand is why we continually give them the rope to hang us. These are choices we make in real time.

For the record I am on both sides of this fence in that I support elephant hunting, but I also financially support small organizations on the Kenya side who are working very hard to maintain harmony between the animals and people, keeping migration corridors open, helping to prevent retaliatory killing when an animal kills livestock or damages crops, and who also help animals when they are injured by spear or being gored by another animal. These two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

TZ is slowly coming back as a Big 4 destination.

Still 15 + years for the Selous IMO but numbers are growing.

Just because an action is legal and gives you gratification doesn't always make it wise or right. You can seduce your hunting buddy's wife and it will seem like fun at the time and there is no law against it. However there will be consequences, some unforseen.
Apart from the possibility of a nasty accident in the woods you will ruin your children's lives, lose friends and respect.
Shooting a well-known elephant or lion just outside a park will only bring a load of shit down on your head and lessen the chances of your children being able to hunt in Africa.
Sometimes you just have to keep your pants up and your finger off the trigger no matter how strong the temptation!

Here's what Kevin Robertson allowed to be published on this site a few years ago in regards to large elephants.

https://forums.accuratereloadi...043/m/3191024072/p/2

Original post by our own ledvm.

quote:
From Dr. Kevin Robertson (with his permission):
Hi Lane,

I have read the thread and listened to the podcasts mentioned.

The PH involved had a very good and ‘correct’ post, which is similar to what he had to say on his podcast.

Mastuelle - the biggest bull in the KNP when I was there from 2012 to 2016 was a 130 pounder.

Saw him a few times as my game ranger friend there followed him closely.

Then he suddenly went missing and his carcass was found about a month later - he had been killed by a younger, fitter and stronger bull.

He was aged to be 47 at the time of his death.

Some say there are now 40 000 ellies in the KNP -and so it is not surprising that all the old iconic bulls are being killed by aggressive and ‘horny’ younger bulls.

The Chura bull - at the time the largest bull in Zimbabwe (114 pounder) - photographed on Lake Kariba in the late 1980’s if I remember correctly - he too was killed by a younger bull in a fight - I saw him with a large septic stomach wound shortly before he died - he had been tusked in the abdomen and died of peritonitis.

I think it was only a matter of time before the hunted bull met the same fate!!!

Elephants get 6 sets of molars in their lifetime - the last set of which is usually in wear by the age of 45 yrs.

When that set wears out, game over.

Elephants are primarily grass eaters and require 6 to 7 % CP in their diet.

When perennial grasses have seeded, they sceness - which is the storage of their nutrients in their roots so they can regrow the next rainy season.

Elephants know all the nutrients are in the roots of dormant grasses so when they feed on grass they pull - with their trunk while kicking with their front feet so the whole plant, roots and all are removed.

In areas with very sandy soil - like Botswana’s kalahari, lots of sand remains on the roots of the grasses when they are pulled out.

Some of this is usually cleaned off by stripping the grass over a tusk tip and we often see grooves worn into the tusks as a result of this.

The elephant chewing motion is anterior/posterior not laterally like a bovine and if there remains sand on the grass roots its abrasive action grinds the teeth down - so elephants in sandy areas have more rapid molar wear than which occurs with those in swampy areas for example where more aquatic plants are eaten, and where the roots can be washed in water.

These simple facts influence significantly how well or quickly elephants age.

The big tuskers in the Letaba Elephant museum in the KNP all died of old age in their early to mid 50’s. None I recall made it to 60.

It is said that old elephant bulls remain sexually active until late in life but this is something I question.

As you know strength and social dominance are the keys to breeding favors - and no way can a large, blunt-tusked bull in his middle to late 40’s compete with virile 35 yr old or so bull with shorter, sharper tusks.

Large tusked bulls are seriously disadvantaged when it comes to fights for breeding rights - a bit like taking a sledge hammer to a sword fight!

I have seen quite a number of large tusked bulls and they all looked seriously disadvantaged - walking with difficulty and resting with their tusks on the ground.

Every one was a loner - never saw such a bull in the company of another elephant.

They can’t lie down on their sides to sleep (because they can’t get up again) and a bull cannot lie in sternal recumbency for more than 15 minutes - so they are forced to sleep standing up or leaning against a tree.

Also they usually cannot lift their heads high enough to be able to mount an in estrus cow anyway, let alone lift their front feet off the ground to copulate, especially when their tusks get in the way!.

In my opinion the bull in question was way past being able to physically copulate - even it he wanted to and he was all on this own and hiding away from more virile bulls which is typical old elephant bull behavior.

The fact he was never seen before is testify to this.

A 122 pounder was shot near Gonarezhou some years ago - and he had never been see before by anyone!

Amazing in this day and age such ellies still exist.

So in my opinion the shooting of that old bull was just a lucky event - he was near the end of his natural lifespan, he had had the opportunity to pass his genes on many years previously and he met a quick merciful death.

I have no problem with any of that.

I disagree with it being splashed all over the internet.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



After reading this info, I would absolutely shoot a large, old, famous elephant if given the chance. I would also do my best to keep all photos off the internet.

Tyler

So scenario like - no more elephant hunting happens right?
How long it’s going to take for poachers deplete the number, local farmers will start snaring, poisoning, harassing elephants.
More and more land will be farmed and there will be less and less land and that increases conflict to the point that elephants will become undesirable species in Africa. What then?

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
So scenario like - no more elephant hunting happens right?
How long it’s going to take for poachers deplete the number, local farmers will start snaring, poisoning, harassing elephants.
More and more land will be farmed and there will be less and less land and that increases conflict to the point that elephants will become undesirable species in Africa. What then?

We often criticize anti-hunters because some seem to have the "I'd rather have no elephant than elephant AND hunting" perspective. We should ask ourselves the obverse - should we only want to see elephant flourish so that we can hunt them? I hope the answer is no - but sometimes it seems that is the case.

Hunters have an exponentially more difficult task than anti-hunters. That means we are under greater scrutiny, criticism and when making our case, must be all but perfect - in some cases, more than perfect.

It is frustrating to see so many people miss these basic concepts.

Lane,

You have done a lot of good and I hate to see you essentially give up, but I fully understand. I'm old, so I'll carry on for as long as I can and hunt as long as I can and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it. Sky and Baxter, I agree with you as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:
I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

Exactly. Simply foolish to try to analogize a 100+ pound elephant to a buffalo or whitetail. How many 100+ pound elephant are left in the world, less than a hundred, less than five hundred? They evoke a different set of emotions in both non-hunters and hunters alike. Hunting them, in particular the large park bulls, will do nothing but bring condemnation and negative attention to hunting. How is that a good thing long term?

Clearly I am not opposed to elephant hunting generally. In the last couple of years, Leon Kachelhoffer guided a client on a hunt in a remote area in Namibia and they shot a 100 pounder. To my knowledge the area the bull was shot in was no where near a national park or reserve, nor could anyone recall ever having seen the bull before. While there was outage regarding that hunt as well, that hunt at least seems defensible to me. Hunting giant park bulls that wander out of the park . . . try defending that hunt to the public.

I have some pretty firm beliefs as to where we, as hunters fit in the natural world. Being hunters/conservationists, we walk dangerously close to being environmentalists. Point is, we desire a balance of nature and wildlife populations being healthy and can be sustainable enough for there to be some off-take.

With that, we carry a burden. A burden to realize that at some point, some species need our protections, even protection from ourselves.

Would anyone here say that we there should be a Tigers on quota in India? I bet not. We all want a world with Tigers still roaming the wilds.

These bulls, we speak about are the same. I, and it seems a fair amount of others, think it's time to be able to protect/enjoy these unique and genetically special animals. These thought come from a place of conservation, not anti.

However, should we not show some restraint, we may lose the greater war. We will never convince enough of the population that shooting Elephants, is somehow good for Elephants. I've tried.

We need to be the adults in the room. Being "in your face" will get us nowhere.

Craig Boddington once stated somewhere, there are/were ~15,000 International hunters in the US. That demographic is far to small to convince, anyone of anything. Politicians care only about re-election. Our numbers even if we all resided in one congressional district, mean nothing. For a politician or un-elected official to take our position is career suicide.

As both Mike and Storm stated, I'm an Elephant hunter as well.

Agree....

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
So scenario like - no more elephant hunting happens right?
How long it’s going to take for poachers deplete the number, local farmers will start snaring, poisoning, harassing elephants.
More and more land will be farmed and there will be less and less land and that increases conflict to the point that elephants will become undesirable species in Africa. What then?

We often criticize anti-hunters because some seem to have the "I'd rather have no elephant than elephant AND hunting" perspective. We should ask ourselves the obverse - should we only want to see elephant flourish so that we can hunt them? I hope the answer is no - but sometimes it seems that is the case.

Hunters have an exponentially more difficult task than anti-hunters. That means we are under greater scrutiny, criticism and when making our case, must be all but perfect - in some cases, more than perfect.

It is frustrating to see so many people miss these basic concepts.

It’s like with elk and deer, we wanna protect them so we can hunt them
Look at the wolf issue, we hate them because they eat elk and deer , we wanna eat them
So there is the concept of a hunter

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Lane,

You have done a lot of good and I hate to see you essentially give up, but I fully understand. I'm old, so I'll carry on for as long as I can and hunt as long as I can and to hell with anyone who doesn't like it. Sky and Baxter, I agree with you as well.

Thank you David.

I am not really giving up…just changing perspectives. If I think I can make a difference…I try…full-bore.

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
So scenario like - no more elephant hunting happens right?
How long it’s going to take for poachers deplete the number, local farmers will start snaring, poisoning, harassing elephants.
More and more land will be farmed and there will be less and less land and that increases conflict to the point that elephants will become undesirable species in Africa. What then?

We often criticize anti-hunters because some seem to have the "I'd rather have no elephant than elephant AND hunting" perspective. We should ask ourselves the obverse - should we only want to see elephant flourish so that we can hunt them? I hope the answer is no - but sometimes it seems that is the case.

Hunters have an exponentially more difficult task than anti-hunters. That means we are under greater scrutiny, criticism and when making our case, must be all but perfect - in some cases, more than perfect.

It is frustrating to see so many people miss these basic concepts.

It’s like with elk and deer, we wanna protect them so we can hunt them
Look at the wolf issue, we hate them because they eat elk and deer , we wanna eat them
So there is the concept of a hunter

Do you know any hunters who want to extirpate lion, cheetah, and leopard because they also kill the animals they otherwise want to hunt? I sure don't.

I don't at all believe that is the 'concept of a hunter' - to only protect an animal so that you can hunt it.

Well, if you live in the west , all hunters hate wolves or at least most of them

But I do believe in this concept to protect game so I can kill it and eat it
It’s only natural and I admit it

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Well, if you live in the west , all hunters hate wolves or at least most of them

But I do believe in this concept to protect game so I can kill it and eat it
It’s only natural and I admit it

I live in Idaho. I hunt. I don't hate wolves. You are conflating an ecological issue with a social/political/regulatory one.

I would think the vast majority of hunters disagree with your perspective. At least I hope they do.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Well, if you live in the west , all hunters hate wolves or at least most of them

But I do believe in this concept to protect game so I can kill it and eat it
It’s only natural and I admit it

I live in Idaho. I hunt. I don't hate wolves. You are conflating an ecological issue with a social/political/regulatory one.

I would think the vast majority of hunters disagree with your perspective. At least I hope they do.

I have to agree with Baxter on this. I don’t hate wolves. They’re fascinating animals and I’ve enjoyed seeing them in Alaska and Canada.

What I do hate is how they’ve been used as a tool by anti-hunters across the west. I think it’s OK to have wolves, but they need to be managed like everything else. The original agreements were for small numbers of wolfpacks and total populations numbering in the hundreds, mostly around Yellowstone and in the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness. Problem is, the wolf advocates never could be trusted and as soon as populations grew and spread out, they sued every single time efforts were made to reduce populations. Now, instead of small localized populations in Montana, Wyoming & Idaho,those states have robust populations that have disbursed widely to where wolves are now in Utah, Washington, Oregon & California. Colorado just released wolves into their state. They’re protected in most of these states, with Idaho being the only state that’s taken a serious effort at managing them.

I don’t hate wolves. I do hate how they’ve been used as a tool by people who hate us and the lifestyle we value. Wolves aren’t the problem; they’re a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is people hellbent on dictating how others are to live and using wolves as one of the tools to achieve their goals.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Well, if you live in the west , all hunters hate wolves or at least most of them

But I do believe in this concept to protect game so I can kill it and eat it
It’s only natural and I admit it

I live in Idaho. I hunt. I don't hate wolves. You are conflating an ecological issue with a social/political/regulatory one.

I would think the vast majority of hunters disagree with your perspective. At least I hope they do.

I have to agree with Baxter on this. I don’t hate wolves. They’re fascinating animals and I’ve enjoyed seeing them in Alaska and Canada.

What I do hate is how they’ve been used as a tool by anti-hunters across the west. I think it’s OK to have wolves, but they need to be managed like everything else. The original agreements were for small numbers of wolfpacks and total populations numbering in the hundreds, mostly around Yellowstone and in the Selway Bitterroot Wilderness.

Problem is, the wolf advocates never could be trusted and as soon as populations grew and spread out, they sued every single time efforts were made to control populations. Now, instead of small localized populations in Montana, Wyoming & Idaho,those states have robust populations that have disbursed widely to where wolves are now in Utah, Washington, Oregon & California. California now has a documented pack in the southern Sierra Nevada Mountains, a place they’ve never existed but they are there now and Fully Protected. Colorado just released wolves into their state. Theyre protected and expected to decimate the deer and elk populations Colorado is known for. They’re protected in most of these states, with Idaho being the only state that’s taken a serious effort at managing them.

I don’t hate wolves. I do hate how they’ve been used as a tool by people who hate us and the lifestyle we value. Wolves aren’t the problem; they’re a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is people hellbent on dictating how others are to live and using wolves as one of the tools to achieve their goals.

hear hear

Well, on the ground, just about everyone hates wolves because they eat elk and deer…this is what I hear from every hunting friend. Yes the semantics are that government pushed it on us.
We as a hunters are for most part good conservators of wildlife and main reason is so we can hunt.
Nobody can deny that
Sure we can go round and round about hunting and conservation with different opinions but results are pretty much the same.
We can be better stewards of wildlife than non hunters
Non hunters expect to see wildlife without any financial output expecting government agencies to do it all for them.
Anyway, there it is as my humble opinion and my apologies for straying from elephant question

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Well, if you live in the west , all hunters hate wolves or at least most of them

But I do believe in this concept to protect game so I can kill it and eat it
It’s only natural and I admit it

When we extrapolate to wildlife management in the U.S., that raises another issue.

Should Fish and Wildlife Departments (originally called Fish and Game departments) focus management on game or more whole ecological viewpoint? Are those two goals mutually exclusive?

There are rumblings about habitat management for non-native pheasant having a negative impact on prairie chickens which pheasant will take over the prairie chicken nesting.

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
Well, on the ground, just about everyone hates wolves because they eat elk and deer…this is what I hear from every hunting friend. Yes the semantics are that government pushed it on us.
We as a hunters are for most part good conservators of wildlife and main reason is so we can hunt.
Nobody can deny that
Sure we can go round and round about hunting and conservation with different opinions but results are pretty much the same.
We can be better stewards of wildlife than non hunters
Non hunters expect to see wildlife without any financial output expecting government agencies to do it all for them.
Anyway, there it is as my humble opinion and my apologies for straying from elephant question

aside of elephant for hunters blaming the wolf for all the issues is interesting in all my years of guiding and hunting i ve seen more elephants than wolf in the nature and had been in position to shoot a wolf 2 times. one in quebec but it was forbidden and one time in the yukon and my wife missed cleanly it. and here they re doing a lot of damages on caribou herds.
i ve seen elephants in CAR, bostwana, zimbabwe and namibia but i doubt i ever seen the biggest ones as they re mostly single and avoid humane being.

USFWS has essentially become an anti-hunting organization. They do what they can now to curtail hunting and remain within the law.

If voting hunters shrink to a negligible level…they will become a full-bore anti-hunting agency.

While I am not necessarily anti-wolf…the reintroduction of wolves is a part of their longer term plan to manage herbivore numbers completely without hurting.

If we are going to have wolves…regulated hunting and trapping of them should be legal as well.

Same for grizzly bears in the lower 48…there are areas that definitely need them put back on season.

https://www.tuskawards.com/richard-bonham-2014/

While we are on the subject I have attached a link on Richard Bonham. He is the Founder of the Big Life Foundation. Based in Kenya they have done a great job with regards to elephants in the greater Amboseli ecosystem. I correspond with Richard and I can tell you his heart is in it and the results show. Fascinating discussing the likes of Bunny Allen, Peter Beard and other Kenya legends with him. Probably one of the last living members of the former East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA).
In discussing Amboseli elephants with Richard they have had poaching under control for quite some time now. They spend most of their efforts with Human Elephant conflict and securing corridors between and around Amboseli and Tsavo. The results speak for themselves. Now Richard is not a fan of shooting Amboseli 100 pounders in TZ BUT he comes from a hunting background and understands both sides.


I would be willing to extend an olive branch and make a donation to Big Life on behalf of AR? This would be my first donation to a non consumptive African conservation organization.

I am in for $ 250.00 IF SAEED would allow any AR members interested to donate on behalf of AR.

Anyone interested?

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
https://www.tuskawards.com/richard-bonham-2014/

While we are on the subject I have attached a link on Richard Bonham. He is the Founder of the Big Life Foundation. Based in Kenya they have done a great job with regards to elephants in the greater Amboseli ecosystem. I correspond with Richard and I can tell you his heart is in it and the results show. Fascinating discussing the likes of Bunny Allen, Peter Beard and other Kenya legends with him. Probably one of the last living members of the former East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA).
In discussing Amboseli elephants with Richard they have had poaching under control for quite some time now. They spend most of their efforts with Human Elephant conflict and securing corridors between and around Amboseli and Tsavo. The results speak for themselves. Now Richard is not a fan of shooting Amboseli 100 pounders in TZ BUT he comes from a hunting background and understands both sides.


I would be willing to extend an olive branch and make a donation to Big Life on behalf of AR? This would be my first donation to a non consumptive African conservation organization.

I am in for $ 250.00 IF SAEED would allow any AR members interested to donate on behalf of AR.

Anyone interested?

Big Life is one of the organizations I support (mentioned above). Richard is in the thick of it, and doing a great job.

quote:

Probably one of the last living members of the former East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA).

Did he ever say why he hunts no more?

Sky, the two animals I like to hunt more than any others are lion and buffalo. If we eliminated lion because they prey on buffalo, it would eliminate my ability to hunt one of my favorite species. It's a trade off between preditor and prey, but we need both.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Probably one of the last living members of the former East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA).

Did he ever say why he hunts no more?

No not to me he hasn’t Fulvio. My guess would be after apprenticing under Bunny Allen and taking part in the greatest hunting era in world history, he wanted to stay at home in Kenya after the ban. He also hunted with Bunny’s sons, Anton and David. He gave David high marks especially as a ph. Finally

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
https://www.tuskawards.com/richard-bonham-2014/

While we are on the subject I have attached a link on Richard Bonham. He is the Founder of the Big Life Foundation. Based in Kenya they have done a great job with regards to elephants in the greater Amboseli ecosystem. I correspond with Richard and I can tell you his heart is in it and the results show. Fascinating discussing the likes of Bunny Allen, Peter Beard and other Kenya legends with him. Probably one of the last living members of the former East African Professional Hunters Association (EAPHA).
In discussing Amboseli elephants with Richard they have had poaching under control for quite some time now. They spend most of their efforts with Human Elephant conflict and securing corridors between and around Amboseli and Tsavo. The results speak for themselves. Now Richard is not a fan of shooting Amboseli 100 pounders in TZ BUT he comes from a hunting background and understands both sides.


I would be willing to extend an olive branch and make a donation to Big Life on behalf of AR? This would be my first donation to a non consumptive African conservation organization.

I am in for $ 250.00 IF SAEED would allow any AR members interested to donate on behalf of AR.

Anyone interested?

I sent my $ 250.00 to Big Life.

Big life are busy collaring all the main tuskers in the Amboseli ecosystem, hoping that by doing so, these bulls will be "saved" from trophy hunters in Tz.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Big life are busy collaring all the main tuskers in the Amboseli ecosystem, hoping that by doing so, these bulls will be "saved" from trophy hunters in Tz.

The same people who make shock collars for dogs should design one for elephants so that they get zapped whenever they come too close to the TZ border.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Big life are busy collaring all the main tuskers in the Amboseli ecosystem, hoping that by doing so, these bulls will be "saved" from trophy hunters in Tz.

The same people who make shock collars for dogs should design one for elephants so that they get zapped whenever they come too close to the TZ border.

Bwanamich, fulvio, Stormgsp. Just curious. We know about these bulls and some big bulls coming out of Maswa. Are there any big bulls still being taken in Lwafi or the greater Katavi/Rukwa ecosystem. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by AilsaWheels:

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Big life are busy collaring all the main tuskers in the Amboseli ecosystem, hoping that by doing so, these bulls will be "saved" from trophy hunters in Tz.

The same people who make shock collars for dogs should design one for elephants so that they get zapped whenever they come too close to the TZ border.

Bwanamich, fulvio, Stormgsp. Just curious. We know about these bulls and some big bulls coming out of Maswa. Are there any big bulls still being taken in Lwafi or the greater Katavi/Rukwa ecosystem. Thanks.

TBGS takes one about every other year in Lake Rukwa. Thats all I know about there...better over around Ruaha NP.

Saw a post that they have identified one of the first bulls called Gilgil and he was 35

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Saw a post that they have identified one of the first bulls called Gilgil and he was 35

Saw it as well...didn't look like a 100 pounder.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Saw a post that they have identified one of the first bulls called Gilgil and he was 35

Saw it as well...didn't look like a 100 pounder.

Not at all.

Based on my observation and experience, a two meter long Tanzanian bull elephant tusk often weighs less than 40 lbs.

Still they use length to set the minimum.

In another post they are collaring Esau, a 100lb bull who is only 34 years old. While it is difficult to estimate exact weights of tusks on a living jumbo, given the variations in density and depth in the skull, it still indicates that in some populations 100lb bulls are not necessarily past breeding age. Research in South Africa may not relate to other populations.

quote:

Originally posted by the Pom:
In another post they are collaring Esau, a 100lb bull who is only 34 years old. While it is difficult to estimate exact weights of tusks on a living jumbo, given the variations in density and depth in the skull, it still indicates that in some populations 100lb bulls are not necessarily past breeding age. Research in South Africa may not relate to other populations.

I have been trying to find the pic but can’t at the moment, there was a pic taken recently of a massive tusker in the process…as it were… quite impressive.

Well I'm going to Ugalla next year. Only about 100 km from Katavi Nat'l Park. So I have an elephant on ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Well I'm going to Ugalla next year. Only about 100 km from Katavi Nat'l Park. So I have an elephant on ticket.

That will be a tough tag to punch Lavaca. That area was hit much harder during the 09' to 14' poaching epidemic. My guess your chances would be the same as if you were hunting in Lukwati. Dont know when the last time an elephant was taken in Ugalla.