Most large tusked ele die from being horned by another younger bull with superior fighting tusks. Most of these super tuskers accumulate their mass in the last trimester of life — maybe even last decade. Most have passed on their genes and have learned to live more solitary lives. The ones who live to just die of ripe old age (without trauma from another bull) have learned to not challenge younger bulls over estrus cows. Yes, they might slip in once in a while…while no one is looking but by and large they have quit breeding. At least this is my understanding from Dr. Kevin Robertson’s study of them in Kruger. I stand to be corrected if I got it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Most large tusked ele die from being horned by another younger bull with superior fighting tusks. Most of these super tuskers accumulate their mass in the last trimester of life — maybe even last decade. Most have passed on their genes and have learned to live more solitary lives. The ones who live to just die of ripe old age (without trauma from another bull) have learned to not challenge younger bulls over estrus cows. Yes, they might slip in once in a while…while no one is looking but by and large they have quit breeding. At least this is my understanding from Dr. Kevin Robertson’s study of them in Kruger. I stand to be corrected if I got it wrong.

I get it Lane (and Safari2)I just think them shared for longevity to the general public, rather than being sequestered away in some Russian guys Trophy Room is a more fitting end.

Have you been to the Elephant Museum in Krueger? I think that is more to what my comments relate to. I've been very fortunate to see them. And to Lane's point, most were killed by younger bulls. There;s even a set in there with a tusk through its skull from fighting.

I am not, in any fashion, suggesting the end of hunting Elephants. I am speaking to that class of Super-Tusker that we as hunters dream about.

I'd love to have a pair of 100 pounders in my Trophy Room, It just isn't realistic in todays world.

When I hunted CAR, I spent the night at Erik Mararv's home the day we arrived. I had the chance to speak to his father. He had killed many MANY of those giant CAR Elephants that are
all but gone as well.

I just think its worth saving the giants. I don't want to live in a world without them. I get it, my opinion is likely different about this than most.

What we do at this point means little to nothing to non-hunters or even the rank and file Whitetail hunter. But it should mean something to us.

I am frequently reminded of the old statement, just because you have the right to do something does not necessarily make it the right thing to do.

They bring money to the land , it’s people and wildlife conservation a lot more then few tourists
Nothing wrong with hunting the oldest when hunting concessions are managed properly

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Most large tusked ele die from being horned by another younger bull with superior fighting tusks. Most of these super tuskers accumulate their mass in the last trimester of life — maybe even last decade. Most have passed on their genes and have learned to live more solitary lives. The ones who live to just die of ripe old age (without trauma from another bull) have learned to not challenge younger bulls over estrus cows. Yes, they might slip in once in a while…while no one is looking but by and large they have quit breeding. At least this is my understanding from Dr. Kevin Robertson’s study of them in Kruger. I stand to be corrected if I got it wrong.

I get it Lane (and Safari2)I just think them shared for longevity to the general public, rather than being sequestered away in some Russian guys Trophy Room is a more fitting end.

Have you been to the Elephant Museum in Krueger? I think that is more to what my comments relate to. I've been very fortunate to see them. And to Lane's point, most were killed by younger bulls. There;s even a set in there with a tusk through its skull from fighting.

I am not, in any fashion, suggesting the end of hunting Elephants. I am speaking to that class of Super-Tusker that we as hunters dream about.

I'd love to have a pair of 100 pounders in my Trophy Room, It just isn't realistic in todays world.

When I hunted CAR, I spent the night at Erik Mararv's home the day we arrived. I had the chance to speak to his father. He had killed many MANY of those giant CAR Elephants that are
all but gone as well.

I just think its worth saving the giants. I don't want to live in a world without them. I get it, my opinion is likely different about this than most.

What we do at this point means little to nothing to non-hunters or even the rank and file Whitetail hunter. But it should mean something to us.

Steve my friend,
I am not really disagreeing with you. Was more of less just speaking about the factual science on the matter.

These "Amboseli" elephants have become handy mascots for anti-hunting zealots who will NEVER be satisfied unless all elephant hunting is banned.

We need to give them as good as we get. More than that, we need to give them better than we get, in as public a way as possible.

These people are bullies, and the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Our hunting rights may be attacked, degraded and mocked by these people, but they can never be taken away from us unless we surrender them.

We need more accurate evidence. I agree with the assumption that those bulls were probably past breeding age but if the skulls were preserved it could be proved. In the good old days when the island in the Tana River was churning out 140 lb bulls regularly, those bulls must have had over 100lb tusks when they were still breeding.
If we were serious about elephant conservation we would all be concentrating on tuskless cows not boosting our egos with super tuskers.
Whether we like it or not, every huge tusker shot is an own-goal and a seriously bad look to all non hunters.
We may not agree at all on this subject but it is important that it is discussed and deserves proper good-natured debate.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Most large tusked ele die from being horned by another younger bull with superior fighting tusks. Most of these super tuskers accumulate their mass in the last trimester of life — maybe even last decade. Most have passed on their genes and have learned to live more solitary lives. The ones who live to just die of ripe old age (without trauma from another bull) have learned to not challenge younger bulls over estrus cows. Yes, they might slip in once in a while…while no one is looking but by and large they have quit breeding. At least this is my understanding from Dr. Kevin Robertson’s study of them in Kruger. I stand to be corrected if I got it wrong.

I get it Lane (and Safari2)I just think them shared for longevity to the general public, rather than being sequestered away in some Russian guys Trophy Room is a more fitting end.

Have you been to the Elephant Museum in Krueger? I think that is more to what my comments relate to. I've been very fortunate to see them. And to Lane's point, most were killed by younger bulls. There;s even a set in there with a tusk through its skull from fighting.

I am not, in any fashion, suggesting the end of hunting Elephants. I am speaking to that class of Super-Tusker that we as hunters dream about.

I'd love to have a pair of 100 pounders in my Trophy Room, It just isn't realistic in todays world.

When I hunted CAR, I spent the night at Erik Mararv's home the day we arrived. I had the chance to speak to his father. He had killed many MANY of those giant CAR Elephants that are
all but gone as well.

I just think its worth saving the giants. I don't want to live in a world without them. I get it, my opinion is likely different about this than most.

What we do at this point means little to nothing to non-hunters or even the rank and file Whitetail hunter. But it should mean something to us.

Steve my friend,
I am not really disagreeing with you. Was more of less just speaking about the factual science on the matter.

+ 1

The science of the matter is that these bulls are old, at the end of their lives and past breeding, so taking them does no harm whatsoever to the elephant population or quality of elephants in the future. Nor does it prevent the general public from "enjoying" these "big tuskers". Once they leave the parks, they are beyond the reach of the general public and they revert to typical elephant behavior. It would be unhealthy for tourists to run around in what they call "safari vehicles" and try to take pictures.

Storms suggestion is disturbing. It seems to me that what a lot of people are suggesting is if the antis don't like it, we back off of it so they won't get mad. Got news for you folks, they are coming after us and if we give an inch, we are just fighting a retreating battle we will inevitably lose. I agree that we shouldn't give them ammunition by posting photos on Facebook. I like Baxter's idea. "A Year in a Hunting Concession" film. That would be an expensive venture, but I'd contribute to it. I think the public should see how hard the outfitters work to prevent poaching and what the anti-poaching crews endure, especially during the rains. They don't live in an East African tented camp with a chef. And they get shot at, get stuck, sleep in the rain, etc. People should see that. But don't let them see how they treat the poachers when they catch them or you'll have the UN looking into it. I've seen it and even I was impressed.

If we start asking the antis for permission, it's over. Just stop!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These "Amboseli" elephants have become handy mascots for anti-hunting zealots who will NEVER be satisfied unless all elephant hunting is banned.

We need to give them as good as we get. More than that, we need to give them better than we get, in as public a way as possible.

These people are bullies, and the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Our hunting rights may be attacked, degraded and mocked by these people, but they can never be taken away from us unless we surrender them.

What, exactly, do you propose we give the zealots?

Baxter,

I like your earlier idea: a documentary on off season anti-hunting. I'd love to go on a patrol or two if I could ever get in good enough shape at my age. Not sure it's still possible. But the public needs to be aware that the government has in large part abdicated it's job and deferred to the safari companies. Not sure the antis really care about the game as evidenced by what happened in Kenya. It is clear that they don't care about the rural people who have to live with wildlife. It's tragic when elephants totally wipe out a small farmer's whole year of work in a night or two. But the general public doesn't see that. Education is a possible solution, but we've seen recently that the left isn't generally open to be educated.

Speaking of good PR, apparently the hunter that shot the most recent Amboseli tusker is a current board member of DSC. That certainly helps to paint hunters and hunting organizations in a favorable light with the general public.

Mike,

How? I'm a hunter and a conservationist and I plan on hunting elephant in Masailand. Now it's extremely unlikely that I'll have an opportunity at a 100 lb. bull, but I certainly wouldn't pass one.

There's a concession just outside Krueger that won't allow a hunter to shoot any bull over 45 lbs. I won't hunt there. I'll shoot the biggest legal animal available on license and won't hunt where I can't take the best available.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sorry, no amount of PR however well done is going to convince John or Jane Q. Public that hunting the last remaining super tuskers (whether that number is estimated to be less than 200 or 2000) where they wander out of popular national parks is appropriate. To the contrary, such events just undermine the ability to mount credible arguments in other areas.

As I said, hunts like this are shooting ourselves in the foot and undermine us, I am not in favor.

Lavaca, we clearly see things differently. In my view, you have 10% of people are anti-hunters, while only 1% are pro-hunting, and 89% are fence sitters that can be swayed. I have had many conversations with the 89%. They will never LIKE elephant hunting, but they can begrudgingly accept it. Even if you have good arguments for hunting these super tuskers, it is perceived very badly, and gives the 10% anti hunter crowd the platform to convert some of the 89%. It isn't about right or wrong, it is about how these hunts hurt our image.

We should also be consistent in our messaging. We like to say if it pays it stays; and tout the dollars hunting brings in. The fact is that Amboseli gets a million visitors a year, and these big tuskers are a huge draw. In this case, the hunting dollars they generate can't compare to the tourist revenue. If the hunts continue, you will have 1+ million new anti hunters a year, as they will all get indoctrinated with the anti story.

quote:

Originally posted by StormsGSP:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sorry, no amount of PR however well done is going to convince John or Jane Q. Public that hunting the last remaining super tuskers (whether that number is estimated to be less than 200 or 2000) where they wander out of popular national parks is appropriate. To the contrary, such events just undermine the ability to mount credible arguments in other areas.

As I said, hunts like this are shooting ourselves in the foot and undermine us, I am not in favor.

Lavaca, we clearly see things differently. In my view, you have 10% of people are anti-hunters, while only 1% are pro-hunting, and 89% are fence sitters that can be swayed. I have had many conversations with the 89%. They will never LIKE elephant hunting, but they can begrudgingly accept it. Even if you have good arguments for hunting these super tuskers, it is perceived very badly, and gives the 10% anti hunter crowd the platform to convert some of the 89%. It isn't about right or wrong, it is about how these hunts hurt our image.

We should also be consistent in our messaging. We like to say if it pays it stays; and tout the dollars hunting brings in. The fact is that Amboseli gets a million visitors a year, and these big tuskers are a huge draw. In this case, the hunting dollars they generate can't compare to the tourist revenue. If the hunts continue, you will have 1+ million new anti hunters a year, as they will all get indoctrinated with the anti story.

100%. In college I gave a presentation on elephant hunting/conservation/poaching. This was at UW, which is very liberal. No one became pro elephant hunting, but the vast majority of the class admitted they had less than zero knowledge of the subject and that while they don’t really agree with hunting as conservation, they can’t argue with the overall results.

A hint for anyone considering such an endeavor - your primary focus must be on people first, then animals, then landscape, then the means to make it all work (hunting). You start with your passion to hunt first and you will lose your audience in a heartbeat.

I found it quite laughable how the CEO of AG tried so hard at the beginning of his response to Mantheakis to sell himself/AG as neutral on the subject, wanting to provide unbiased and factual information only for their true anti-hunting colors to come shining through in his fact checks.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Sorry, no amount of PR however well done is going to convince John or Jane Q. Public that hunting the last remaining super tuskers (whether that number is estimated to be less than 200 or 2000) where they wander out of popular national parks is appropriate. To the contrary, such events just undermine the ability to mount credible arguments in other areas.

Mike, yo may be correct and many agree (myself included) as “politically smart”
You are also part of the problem as a card carrying member of the Left which I find astounding.
You simply CANNOT give one inch to the Left. period. They don’t give a F…
They will not stop.
Pick a side…. You are a solid hunter etc and support the Left…
You cannot be or do both

I can't disagree with the theory that 89% of the general public are neutral about hunting generally, but not necessarily elephant hunting. The only times I've had anyone take issue with my hunting was about elephant and lion. No one seems to really care about anything else.

I have a silly question, but I'll ask given the posts about shooting the "big tuskers" coming out of Amboseli. Elephant bulls are going to wander and they are going to go into hunting areas. Which would you prefer? 1. A hunter shoots a 100 pounder that left the park to go off and die; or 2. a hunter shot a nice, mature, but still breeding 70 pounder that might find its way back to the park and make some more elephants?

Which is better for the elephants?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I can't disagree with the theory that 89% of the general public are neutral about hunting generally, but not necessarily elephant hunting. The only times I've had anyone take issue with my hunting was about elephant and lion. No one seems to really care about anything else.

I have a silly question, but I'll ask given the posts about shooting the "big tuskers" coming out of Amboseli. Elephant bulls are going to wander and they are going to go into hunting areas. Which would you prefer? 1. A hunter shoots a 100 pounder that left the park to go off and die; or 2. a hunter shot a nice, mature, but still breeding 70 pounder that might find its way back to the park and make some more elephants?

Which is better for the elephants?

Maybe these noted super tuskers could be marked or collared and then the decision to hunt them would be yours. I am surprised that these special elephant are not tracked by the parties who are trying to protect them?

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
I can't disagree with the theory that 89% of the general public are neutral about hunting generally, but not necessarily elephant hunting. The only times I've had anyone take issue with my hunting was about elephant and lion. No one seems to really care about anything else.

I have a silly question, but I'll ask given the posts about shooting the "big tuskers" coming out of Amboseli. Elephant bulls are going to wander and they are going to go into hunting areas. Which would you prefer? 1. A hunter shoots a 100 pounder that left the park to go off and die; or 2. a hunter shot a nice, mature, but still breeding 70 pounder that might find its way back to the park and make some more elephants?

Which is better for the elephants?

We can look at this through a scientific lens, through an ethical lens, or through a public perception lens. When talking about park bulls, I prioritize the public perception over the other views. If Tim (https://wildlifediaries.blogspot.com/2021/08/the-story-of-tim-mighty-tusker-of.html) had died from a legal hunt, it would have caused a shitstorm that would have exceeded Cecil.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These "Amboseli" elephants have become handy mascots for anti-hunting zealots who will NEVER be satisfied unless all elephant hunting is banned.

We need to give them as good as we get. More than that, we need to give them better than we get, in as public a way as possible.

These people are bullies, and the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Our hunting rights may be attacked, degraded and mocked by these people, but they can never be taken away from us unless we surrender them.

What, exactly, do you propose we give the zealots?

The truth?

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These "Amboseli" elephants have become handy mascots for anti-hunting zealots who will NEVER be satisfied unless all elephant hunting is banned.

We need to give them as good as we get. More than that, we need to give them better than we get, in as public a way as possible.

These people are bullies, and the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Our hunting rights may be attacked, degraded and mocked by these people, but they can never be taken away from us unless we surrender them.

What, exactly, do you propose we give the zealots?

The truth?

Well, while we are arguing about what the 'truth' is, they are actively petitioning to reinstate a cross-border wildlife protection agreement.

See here: https://www.change.org/p/urge-...protection-agreement

This is a subtopic. However, it is not just enough to say hunting conservation pays for x,y,z.

That is just conclusionary talking points.
Unless, we can show the math of what hunting dollars of a given safari went to conservative habitat, anti-poaching, rural development, and healthier animal populations in the specific region hunted, we do not have anything.


These bulls value to the park ecosystem may have outstripped their raw value generated to the hunting concession. However, how did being able to offer elephant hunting w the possibility of this type of bulls make the concession economically viable? How did that viability translate into a concession that has good habitat and health game numbers because the Operator can make this concession a go? What happens to the concession if elephant and elephant of this age cannot be sold? Does the operator have to pull out with the result being poaching and encroachment into the park by poachers?

These are questions we need to ask and answer.

Baxter’s change link says a lot. What I hear from it is the phrase, “ I am not a trophy.”

I have come to agree. The challenge is that an elephant, deer, or ducks are a resource. The public must be shown how the resource is 1) sustainable, and 2) the kill/removal is beneficial to the local habitat and ecosystem.
Again, we need hard math to make that plea. Simply, saying it or calling anti/hunting post it one wrong either math is not going to get it done.

Ultimately, that may mean compromising on these “super bulls.”

As I have stated earlier, the good news in all of this is elephant numbers have greatly increased in all of these areas on BOTH sides of the border.

Kudos to all who have helped make this a reality. As a result we need to debate how this increasing population of elephants is to be managed!

Don’t buy into the argument that this is the LAST of the big tuskers or the LAST of that….

More than a few of the big tuskers that stay on Kenya side of the border are killed by spears when crop raiding..so pick your poison.

How about a 1 bull quota in each of the 2 TZ hunting areas in question?

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
As I have stated earlier, the good news in all of this is elephant numbers have greatly increased in all of these areas on BOTH sides of the border.

Kudos to all who have helped make this a reality. As a result we need to debate how this increasing population of elephants is to be managed!

Don’t buy into the argument that this is the LAST of the big tuskers or the LAST of that….

More than a few of the big tuskers that stay on Kenya side of the border are killed by spears when crop raiding..so pick your poison.

How about a 1 bull quota in each of the 2 TZ hunting areas in question?

I'd probably sign-off on that.

As to LHeym's points. I've debated anti-hunters on the Elephant (and Lion) issue. I've come to the conclusion, that they (mostly) would call it a victory for there to be no Elephants than there be legal Elephant hunting.

The conservation through responsible sport hunting argument, falls on deaf ears. Even if it makes complete biological and financial sense, they want the activity stopped.

No different than BC ban on Griz hunt or not allowing Mt, WY, ID to manage griz
Pine cone eaters will never compromise therefore we can’t either

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
These "Amboseli" elephants have become handy mascots for anti-hunting zealots who will NEVER be satisfied unless all elephant hunting is banned.

We need to give them as good as we get. More than that, we need to give them better than we get, in as public a way as possible.

These people are bullies, and the only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.

Our hunting rights may be attacked, degraded and mocked by these people, but they can never be taken away from us unless we surrender them.

What, exactly, do you propose we give the zealots?

The truth?

Well, while we are arguing about what the 'truth' is, they are actively petitioning to reinstate a cross-border wildlife protection agreement.

See here: https://www.change.org/p/urge-...protection-agreement

Stakeholders in the hunting community simply cannot let that stand unopposed.

The negative press continues.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/art...0to%20bag%20a%20bull.

Totally silly but also unworkable. So how do you know the animal came in from Kenya? Would it apply to other species? The problem it seems is that animals don't recognize international boundaries and they don't carry a GPS, so you don't know where they have been or where they have wandered, only where they are right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:
As I have stated earlier, the good news in all of this is elephant numbers have greatly increased in all of these areas on BOTH sides of the border.

Kudos to all who have helped make this a reality. As a result we need to debate how this increasing population of elephants is to be managed!

Don’t buy into the argument that this is the LAST of the big tuskers or the LAST of that….

More than a few of the big tuskers that stay on Kenya side of the border are killed by spears when crop raiding..so pick your poison.

How about a 1 bull quota in each of the 2 TZ hunting areas in question?

I'd probably sign-off on that.

As to LHeym's points. I've debated anti-hunters on the Elephant (and Lion) issue. I've come to the conclusion, that they (mostly) would call it a victory for there to be no Elephants than there be legal Elephant hunting.

The conservation through responsible sport hunting argument, falls on deaf ears. Even if it makes complete biological and financial sense, they want the activity stopped.

The truth^^^

Rabies are not going to listen, but fence setters are.

I remember bring in Law School and having folks over to watch Safari Rifles and Boddington on Elephant. These were positive with folks minds being changed. Some in awe, some begrudgingly.

My Adopted Uncle is an Alabama Farm Boy. His son in law is a Hunter. We cook and smoke venison together. One day we are talking, he was anti elephant hunting. I had just got back from hunting Red Stags and we’re eating an elk backstrap. Guess what, he is reachable. The example that got him to accept the idea, potential of elephant hunting is elephant are very much 12 foot 6 ton pigs.

So, again, we need to math of how much our dollars are actually paying for conservation.

quote:

you have 10% of people are anti-hunters, while only 1% are pro-hunting, and 89% are fence sitters that can be swayed.

IMHO, the numbers are flawed. I suspect around 25-30% or more of the population are anti-hunting. They are also passionate about it in voice and money. Nothing will change their mind.

Of the pro-hunting population…over 50% of them are negative on elephants, lion, giraffes, grizzlies, and like.

Of the non-hunting but not anti-hunting rest…60-70% of the population…the vast majority are going to be non-receptive to hunting elephants, lion……

This makes a very steep mountain to climb and why we lose ground yearly.

I wonder when Illinois will start protecting big mature whitetails on the border with Iowa, demanding Iowa hunters not to shoot them within 10-15 miles of border line
How about elk on Cali Oregon border, whose elk are those?

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
I wonder when Illinois will start protecting big mature whitetails on the border with Iowa, demanding Iowa hunters not to shoot them within 10-15 miles of border line
How about elk on Cali Oregon border, whose elk are those?

sorry, but you can't equate a white tail deer and an animal that takes 50+ years to reach an equivalent state of maturity.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
I wonder when Illinois will start protecting big mature whitetails on the border with Iowa, demanding Iowa hunters not to shoot them within 10-15 miles of border line
How about elk on Cali Oregon border, whose elk are those?

sorry, but you can't equate a white tail deer and an animal that takes 50+ years to reach an equivalent state of maturity.

Thank you. It should not be that hard to grasp. So long as hunters persist in shooting super tuskers, particularly those that have wandered out of national parks like Amboseli, hunters will be the ultimate losers since such events merely serve to alienate folks largely agnostic to hunting. We can say screw them, to hell with them, you will never appease them, but turn public opinion against you and the days of enjoying elephant hunting will be even more seriously numbered. Seems like we should be focused on playing the long game as opposed to the selfish short game of let me take what I can to hell with everyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
I wonder when Illinois will start protecting big mature whitetails on the border with Iowa, demanding Iowa hunters not to shoot them within 10-15 miles of border line
How about elk on Cali Oregon border, whose elk are those?

sorry, but you can't equate a white tail deer and an animal that takes 50+ years to reach an equivalent state of maturity.

+1, silly comparison. Are a million tourists a year paying millions of dollars to see big whitetails?

So Mike and Storm,

Should we not be permitted to shoot buffalo when they leave Tarangire National Park to wander into Simanjiro? Which they do every year at the beginning of the rains.

When an elephant wanders not only across a park boundary, but across an international border what elephants should we be prohibited from shooting? Only the "super tuskers"? And who decides what those are? Or all elephants? And who can establish where they came from?

It sounds like you have joined the antis and want to prohibit elephant hunting.

I think Mike has shot more than a few elephants, and is clearly not an anti. Nor am I, and I can tell you many PH's here are not supportive of these hunts. Your comment is a nonsense ad hominem, why not keep to the facts of the matter?

Lion and elephant hunting is far more emotive than other animals. That is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be said. Hunting park buffalo in sustainable numbers is fine. Hunting has been going on in these areas for years, elephants were just not on quota.

As you said, when you see buffalo in certain blocks you know where they are coming from- same for elephants. Yes, elephants can travel farther distances, but you have 3 main "feeders" in this area, Amboseli, Tarangire, and Serengeti (and a few other associated areas). If you see ele in Eduimet, it is an Amboseli bull. If you see one in Makame, Lokisali, etc, it is probably a Tarangire bull, if you see one in Maswa, it is a Serengeti bull. This is the most active photographic safari area in Africa. You bring all sorts of ancillary points into the discussion, but the fact remains that hunting these elephants is only going to cause enormous backlash, and create many more anti-hunters. Seems like a good reason not to deliberately kick the hornets nest.

For what it is worth, there have been some nice bulls taken in the past few years in Western TZ. I saw a very nice, but still young bull, in the Selous several years back. If someone where to stumbled across a 100lber in Southern or Western TZ, I wouldn't have a problem.

That would be those W. TZ and Selous 100 pounder would not be “known” to the general population with monetization by a hooting come see?

Not a fan of taking the ele's that are coming and going from a park. Especially the huge old guys.

I would like to think that trophy hunters are beyond having to take a "100 pounder". These are rare and should be left alone.

I quit looking for the 45" buffalo and happily hunt the old, knarly, broken horn brutes. Same with big eland. I am looking for old, knobbed off and at the end.

I get it that the 100 lbers may not be breeders. However, there are plenty of broken tuskers to hunt as well as some shorter, less heavy, old males.

Do ourselves a favor and don't add fuel to the fire. Same with lions baited out of a park. Leave them alone....