Hi Michael

Thanks for chiming in. I could not dig up the stats you sent me a while back.
I am busy working on a horseback trails idea right now with a few guys in the Hluhluwe area. We are planning to do the trails into big 5 area, those lever guns look like they would be the ticket with a good solid. Especially if you were ever forced to shoot from the saddle etc.

The rifle itself would need to be tough and all weather with a stock taht could survive a fall or a horse rolling on it etc. Short and handy with glock style tactical (fast acquisition) sights.

One of the scenarios that we had factored in as a worst case would be a guest taking off with lions in pursuit. Highly unlikely to ever happen, but we figured it would be our "worst nightmare" situation. After looking at the logistics of a guide going after them with the intention of scaring off with a few rounds from the rear or having to make one count if they were either about to or on top of the horse client.

The lever gun is very appealing because of its design and ease of reload, also it has had years of refinement specifically for horse based situations where the lever is far faster and safer than a bolt action, and less likely to land up in the dirt while you are attempting to reload etc.

I have a question though, are there any .375 ballistics lever cartridges that could give the penetration that either a .375 or 416 give. With the guide gun scenario penetration is tops, if it were an elephant that needed to be shot from a compromised position then we could only have a direct brain hit, anything else would just be burning powder. What do you think would be the best bet for the highest penetration ability in a lever gun whilst staying above the .375 H&H balistics requirement set forth in the law.

Chat soon
Ian

quote:

I have experienced stuck cases in my .308 Winchester caliber Savage 99 when firing South African military 7.62x51mm ammunition. The extractor just jumped out of the groove on the case head and failed to extract.

I had the exact same problem with a Savage Model 99 in .308. I tried several brands of ammunition and the only brand that worked 100% of the time was Remington.

Ian

In respect for Bills intent on with this thread, for it to not turn into a dangerous game thread, I hesitate to hi jack the thread with our conversation. With that said, PM me and we can discuss it.

African Cowboys! Maybe someone should start a thread like that?


Michael

army 7,62x51 have not exactly same case dimension as 308 and sometime problem occures while using army rounds in hunting rifles!! it is not because lever action is not relaiable.
regards
yes

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
army 7,62x51 have not exactly same case dimension as 308 and sometime problem occures while using army rounds in hunting rifles!! it is not because lever action is not relaiable.
regards
yes

You've got it exactly backwards. There is no material difference in the ammo, except that some ammo is hotter than other ammo.

Some military chambers are longer than commercial, so in some military rifles, commercial ammo should not be fired, since the brass will stretch and might fail.

Military brass is thicker and tougher and does not have that problem.

Military ammo may be fired in commercial chambers without risk of case failure - and in bolt rifles, without risk of extraction problems (generally speaking, of course).

In the case that I described above, for example, the RSA military 7.62x51mm ammo that would not extract in my Savage 99 would extract without the slightest problem in my Blaser R93 bolt rifle.

My Savage 99, like odie's, can be picky when it comes to what will fire and feed through it - and that is because of the relatively weak extractor (as compared to those provided on bolt rifles).

Michael, you are right. Sorry Bill.


Mr Lexma, I agree with you on the ammo, some of the SA military stuff is hellishly hot loaded. I have had them stick in my 1979 Ruger NO2 action and that is something which is very hard to get stuck. Even my hottest hand loads have never given me the same grief that the SAM stuff did.

One other thing you may be having trouble with is that some of the military stuff is raw brass that was "uncoated" (written on the packaging). It was then stored in army bunkers for years and quite a lot of it had slight oxidation on the cases making them more sticky than any factory loadings, hot or not.

I will take a picture of some that I have with me now that are showing the effects of age.

Back to lever guns in Africa, does anyone have a take on the .405 winchester and its ability to penetrate with 300gr solids. Hornady says that they can push them to 2200 so I am assuming I could get them to 2400 with a GS FN solid.

I have just found a Winchester M 1895 in 405 win advertised. 24 inch barrel and 5 shots in the box
Any info would be appreciated.
Ian

you are right about outside dimension of cases. usually army cases have much thicker walls and i have seen and heard the army rounds can generate much higher presure, but it was back in 1960ies.
isen't that higher pressure due to thicker heavier walls giving extraction problem with army rounds or you had problem with hunting rounds in your sa99 too.
regards
yes

Ian

Get with Gerard and see what sort of bullets would be available from his side for the 405!

Then depending on what he can provide you!

Michael

I think most lever guns share the easy reloading and handling virtues. Not all lever guns have the same vices. I think the BLR was designed differently from the start with Western Magnum cartridges in mind and was offered in 7mm Mag at least right at the start with a removeable box magazine. I'm not sure if it's extractor is better than the Win, Savage or Marlins, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's different. Come to think of it, a .375 round based on the 300 Win Mag case in a BLR would make a nice custom rifle.

Did a little Internet research and found out that the 375 wildcat based on the 300 Win Mag cartridge had the name 375 Epstein and was featured in Rifle Magazine. I certainly don't see the need for it in a bolt gun, but in a Browning Lever Rifle it might make an interesting rifle. Found a person who has done it on the Shooters Forum:


---------------------------------------------

"Tang:

I have been shooting a 375-300WM for about ten years now.

It is a great round, and will easily match the balistics of the 375H&H. The advantage to the wildcating of the 300 WM with larger bullet diameters than .300 is that you get a longer neck to properly grip the bullet. ( Given that you keep the shoulder at the same location )

My rifle is built on a Browning BLR that was originally in 300WM. In rebarreling it I maintained all the same chamber dimensions, changing only the bore and the neck diameter. This gives me a neck length of .320 instead of the .264 found on the 300WM.

I had RCBS make up a set of dies from some fireformed cases that I carefully reloaded then shot without resizing. They also made me a die to use for cutting the neck to length as the cases grow with multiple reloading. I fire form cases in the rifle using esentially squib loads behind oatmeal and a light wadding.

I have also sized cases by shooting a standard 300WM round down the barrel. This is how I got the origional cases to reload to fire for sending the cases to RCBS to use to make the dies.

If anyone would like the case dimensions, email me with your email address and I will forward you a drawing.

Frank"

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Chuck

I have used an original Win 1895 in 405 on plains game in Zimbabwe and SA. I pushed a Woodleigh 300 gr. weldcore round nose at 2000 fps with great results.

Cowboykell
That is interesting, can you share with us what sort of distances you were shooting at etc and what penetration you had.

My objective would be to get maximum penetration with the 405, so probably would shoot a custom 270gr GS FN solid. What sort of velocity do you think could be achieved in a Winchester 1895 if we were to push the pressures up.
Please could you try post some pictures of anything you may have.
Thanks
Ian

Ian - my shots were 75 to 175 yds. With iron sights I am not comfortable shooting over 200 yds. Shoulder shots on waterbuck and gemsbok penetrated 1/2 way into opposite shoulder, clean through a warthog, and a facing brisket shot on a wildebeast made it into the intestines. Recovered 300 gr.bullets mushroomed to .75" and weighed back at 295 gr. which I find remarkable. My Win 1895 was a 1904 manufacture and of high condition so I am very careful not to push the pressures. I believe the modern manufactured 1895s could easily be pushed to 2200 fps. with a 300 gr. bullet. Will send some pics to your email address, feel free to post them here.

Hi guys, on a recent episode of Under Wild Skies. Tony Makris used a vintage 405 with Hornaday solids that they loaded for him and dropped a buff with a frontal brain shot at about 15 yds in a palm thicket.
Also were there any Win. model '95s in 303 British that were used at the turn of the century? Also read an article long ago about guys in Kenya using Win. model 1886 in 50-110. Maybe Cottar or someone else?

cowboykell
Thanks a lott, got the pics. YOu look like you had a great hunt with your lever gun. I will try and post them but having some issues.
I am trying to get some good pics of the 95 to see what condition it is in too, so will try post them all together.

What velocity would you say you are getting now with your 300gr bullets and can you tell me what bullets they were?
Chat soon
Ian