watched the show last night. Guy was hunting impala with a kodiak 45/70 double. took 2 shots to kill the impala. obviously a 45/70 is inferior for african game

You mean that crazy impala didn't tople right over when it saw a hunter with a 45-70? I don't believe it...

Cheers,
Brian

Use a NP or Barnes and they'll only need one shot ! I love my 45/70 !
Fortunately there are no elephants or buffalo here in NY.

after the Barnes soild bullet failed on a buffalo this yr. I will never shot barnes again. called ammo manufactor and there rep. I talked to had nothing good to say about barnes soilds. off subject sorry

Nothing wrong with barnes solids, killed my buffalo one shot. H*ll I even used a puny 375.

Wasn't the hunter Joe Cogan, not exactly a light weight in the Africian hunting circles. I do believe it was an open sighted rifle and was remanicent of his first African hunt in the 70s, and his first African animial. We need to keep things in context.

ddrhook,

Please tell us about the problem with the Barnes solid. Also they mentioned in that show that he fired four shots at the implala and hit it four times.

465H&H

frontal chest shot at about 65yrd or so. off sticks. hit buffalo square in chest. the bullet did not penatrate it bent and broke two of the four pedals off turned left and when under the shoulder. ZERO penitration.the only saving grace was it did break the shoulder. the guy I talked to stated that barnes solids did not stabilize at close range and that they where known to bend and break on impact. i asked if they had that kind of problems why his company still used them he did not reply to that. he had nothing good to say about barnes solids.If Steve reads this he maybe able to send a picture of the bullet. I took a picture of it with a bullet I recovered from the range out of red clay dirt. the fctory rep did say the bullets acted diffrently on animals than on test medium!!(NO SHIT)

In your first post you said it was a solid bullet and in the next that petals broke off. Was it a soft point or solid? Yes,I would like to see a picture of it.

465H&H

sorry my mistake it was a barnes X the one they say that it will not come apart

I have the solid I took from my Buffalo and it is so straight and clean it could be re loaded. Stabilize at close range - 65 yds close range for solids.

As far as I am aware Barnes has never claimed that on the TSX that it won't sometimes shed a petal/petals. Similar to the Nosler Partition sheding the nose. We have seen numerous pics of this happening to the TSX but the bullets haven't been bent or deformed??

I shot a hippo, my buddy shot a hippo and croc with the TSX and all was well.

I would be interested in who the "guy" was you talked to? Was it a Barnes factory employee or some kind of sales rep? I can't imagine a Barnes employee who knew about the product making that kind of statement? Sorry you had a problem. Did you recover the Buff? I assume you did or you wouldn't know the bullet path?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

quote:

Originally posted by ddrhook:
sorry my mistake it was a barnes X the one they say that it will not come apart

quote:

As far as I am aware Barnes has never claimed that on the TSX that it won't sometimes shed a petal/petals. Similar to the Nosler Partition sheding the nose. We have seen numerous pics of this happening to the TSX but the bullets haven't been bent or deformed??

I shot a hippo, my buddy shot a hippo and croc with the TSX and all was well.

I would be interested in who the "guy" was you talked to? Was it a Barnes factory employee or some kind of sales rep? I can't imagine a Barnes employee who knew about the product making that kind of statement? Sorry you had a problem. Did you recover the Buff? I assume you did or you wouldn't know the bullet path?

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry,

I agree with you. I do not doubt that the the TSX or was it an original X bullet lost petals. Also sometimes those ribs do funny things to bullets. I have seen about any bullet I've used at some point take a path I had not intended through an animal.

I'm not a Barnes bullet expert but I've shot about 30 animals with the TSX in the last 3 years and I've never noticed any stabilization problems. The only thing I've noticed is incredible penetration but at the price of less DRT shots. I think it is the best all around bullet for Africa.

Mark

My single .458 Barnes Triple Shock, through the ribs,through the lungs, through the heart found under the offside hide near the shoulder. Did the job nicely that the preceeding hunters' .375 TBBC did not do.



Les

oh, you mean the infomercial? I think they have out-uglied the M16 with that nasty gasgun.

Rich
DRSS

Walnut & steel man, walnut & steel

Barnes spend a lot of money on addvertizing showing the other guys bullets that shead there pedels and showing there's that did not. The only point I was making and warning folks about it. the rep I talked to who did not have anything possitive to say about the bullets and his statemnet about then unstablility a close range.

ddrhook - Interesting that a Barnes Rep would have nothing positive to say about the Company he represents and the product they sell? I was a Manufactures rep for many years and I have owned several busniness as well. If I found out my Rep was not, well not representing my product in good faith, guess what? I would be looking for a new Rep and he would be on the street looking for a new job.

Mark and I agree on this one for sure. I have used Barnes TSX and Solids (3) in Africa for three Safaris including Buff, Hippo, Sable, Kudu, Brown Hyena, Springbok, Warthog, Duiker, Mountain Zebra etc with absolute positive results. Are there other good bullets out there, sure there are, but I have found that the TSX reloads easy, shoots fabulous groups and most important does its job on the quarry.

Hope D99 doesn't mind another testimonial and infomercial? Just passing on what works for me.

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

not a barnes rep. it was the rep for the ammo company who used barnes bullets. I was just telling people what happen to me I don't care what anyone else thinks or does. Thats there business BUT I will never shot a barnes bullet again

ddrhook,

You have stated your bad luck with a single bullet, but I assume you shot other Barnes bullets while on safari, likely using another Barnes bullet for the buffalo finisher. How did those other bullets work for you? I wouldn't hang my hat on a single bullet's performance. If you were to have a similar consistant lack of performance, then you could draw a few more concrete conclusions.

Saeed uses a similar type of bullet construction on all of his buffalo hunts.

I'll have a look through the pics and see what I can find..... I have to say, I'm not a particular fan of any bullet that develops petals because I reckon as soon as one breaks off (if it does) then the bullet becomes unstable and won't follow the expected path..... Personally I prefer something like a Woodleigh that simply mushrooms.

Now a slightly embarrassing admission.

When Hooker shot his buffalo, I was full of malaria and although I remember the shot, the follow up and it's lack of sense of humour when we found it etc and I remember after it's lights went out for good, I had to sit down before I fell down....... (so I guess it was sheer willpower that kept me operating when I had to)..... but I don't remember even seeing that damn bullet or working out what happened to it's path at all I'm afraid.

Malaria truly is a shit thing!

As far as bullet choice goes, we all have our own preferences and usually deeply held opinions but as I see it, it's not about how well a design works properly, it's about how often a particular design fails.... I reckon one failure tells a lot more about the design of a bullet than a thousand successes.

Personally, I've never had a Woodleigh SP or PSP or a GS Custom fail in all the years I've been using them, so that's my preference. I've seen some designs repeatedly fail and I obviously avoid those like the plague.

How often does a bullet pass through? Is a pass through more effective than a non pass through?

On North American game, my bullet holes are small on the entrance side and much larger on the exit side.

I was reading an old Howard ST....? brochure (South African outfitter). He said no solids on the front page.

Robert,

Too many variables to answer that one properly I'm afraid. It depends on the bullet, the animal, the range and the calibre.

Personally, I rather like a nice big exit hole because it usually makes tracking considerably easier and faster.

Are buffalo usually shot with a solid? I would imagine it takes some serious force to penetrate a buffalo, much less to pass through a buff.

The only thing about some of these magnums (say 300 weatherby) on smaller game such as white tailed deer, impala, etc, is that it tears the hide up. I have seen deer missing a chunk nearly the size of a football from the exit holes.

Even at 500 yards I have seen some decent exit holes from the 300 weatherby and ballistic tips.

Every PH and indeed hunter have their own preferences as to bullets (on any species) but for buff, I recommend the client load with a slow expanding soft such as a Woodleigh PSP (not usually SP) for the first shot and then solids thereafter and I usually load just solids.

The Weatherbys are all fast and great for longer shots but as you say, can often do a lot of damage, esp at close range..... the upside is they're like a laser beam in good hands at long range.

I have the Barnes X bullet I shot my Giraiff with and it only has one petal left, but the funny thing is he only went about 50 yrds and piled up and oh yea it was 338 WM.

After talking with my Godfather who had alot of African experiences, I see what you are saying.

I need to start making notes and going back over what was the perfect buffalo shot on an anatomy diagram.

What is your ideal shot on a buffalo? Obviously a soft point is superior if it properly penetrates. I am guessing you load solids assuming the aderaline kick in will make for a harder kill, and he is moving so your shots are going to be tricky?

Have you had many or any soft points leave an exit hole?

Also do you use softpoints or solids on elephants.
From the tape I watch on Elephants, they appeared to be using solids and shooting for the brain, primarly. The elephants back legs fell first, then the front legs would buckle. In one clip they shot a charging elepant in the knee cap to stop it, then best I remember backed up and shot for the football sized brain.

Alot to learn, Daniel-san..

BTW, Swifts. Nuff said.

As someone said, people have very strong feelings about bullets. You guys know that we have different manufacturers involved with the different TV shows we do. Barnes doesn't happen to be one of them--but for big, tough stuff I have seen the Barnes X, TS, and TSX perform extremely well, generally deep penetration and consistent expansion that is self-limiting (which is largely why they penetrate so well). That said, like anything else made by man, any bullet can fail, and I'm having trouble thinking of a single bullet that I like that I haven't seen fail at least once. Let alone the ones I don't like!!!! That's why I like to back up my shots, especially on big and or tough stuff. When you take your shot and you think it's really good you're banking on two things: First, that you visualized the shot correctly and called it where you think you did; and, second, that the bullet performed like it was supposed to. I've been wrong on the first, and the second has happened! On a lung-shot whitetail or a shoulder-shot impala I don't worry about it too much--but on large game I shoot again when I can. Just in case!

Mr. Boddington, I watch a little TV consisting of the news about once a month. My next video I buy and watch will be "Boddington on Buffalo." From everything I have seen and read, you are a modern day Peter Capstick. You seem to be the foremost figure for African hunting today.

Robert,

I've seen some softs exit a buffalo but not many..... most of the ones that have have been from my own .500 and have been at point blank range usually where the animal has been spined and I've got up behind it and adminiistered the coup de grace through the spine, on through the engine room and out of the brisket.

These links might help:

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-shot-placement.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-shot-placement.html

Regarding the Boddington DVDs.... anything with his name on it is well worth viewing. I started to list the best ones and then realised that I was simply listing the lot so just look for Boddington on ......... and it'll be well worth watching!

Regarding bullets. (FWIW) I've never seen a Woodleigh SP, PSP or GS Custom monolithic solid fail and love 'em to bits. With the Woodleighs, it's important to pay strict attention to the terminal velocity recommended on the box.

Swift A frame are another very good bullet and is one of the very few that seems to do everything well. I've seen them take everything leopard to buffalo and bigger and they just always seem to give the desired effect.

All that said, as I mentioned before, everyone has their own opinions on bullets and opinions are usually strongly held and it's not unusual for the subject to raise vitriolic responses from those whos opinions differ with your own...... so get used to it!

quote:

frontal chest shot at about 65yrd or so. off sticks. hit buffalo square in chest. the bullet did not penatrate it bent and broke two of the four pedals off turned left and when under the shoulder. ZERO penitration.the only saving grace was it did break the shoulder. the guy I talked to stated that barnes solids did not stabilize at close range and that they where known to bend and break on impact. i asked if they had that kind of problems why his company still used them he did not reply to that. he had nothing good to say about barnes solids.If Steve reads this he maybe able to send a picture of the bullet. I took a picture of it with a bullet I recovered from the range out of red clay dirt. the fctory rep did say the bullets acted diffrently on animals than on test medium!!(NO SHIT)

I had something very similar happen to me in Tanzania,on a Hippo, using a 375 with Barnes solids.

We had managed to get in pretty close, 20 yards or so, and although he was aware of our presence, he wasn't concerned.

My client took the shot, and it was all over, nothing untoward happened. From the entry wound I was 100% happy the brain had been hit - how wrong I was.

The bullet hadn't travelled more than 15" or so, and had missed the brain! It was deformed and had only dislodged the 2nd vertebra!! Hardly something anyone wouldwant to have happen....what if it was an elephant coming at you!!!!!!!!!

Had a client using a 375 H&H with TBBC solids shoot an EA eland a few years ago.... the bullet killed the animal but didn't even make it to the other side of the animal and the recovered bullet was belt like a banana.

As Neil so quite rightly says: what if it was an elephant coming at you!

I've also seen a fair number or identical bullet/calibre combinations skid round the ribcage on frontal chest shots on buffalo instead of penetrating into the chest cavity.

I probably used the Barnes X bullet more than most hunters, killing several hundred animals, ranging from duikers to buffalo, and I have never had a single failure.

Most of the bullets loose one or more of their petals, a few do not loose anything at all as the HP closes up.

But, they never failed to kill the animal.



Above are two Walterhog bullets, which behave perform just as well as the barnes X.

Both bullets were recovered from a cape buffalo bull.
The longer bullet was fired at him at about 200 yards. It entered his chest at an angle. He ran off and was found lying down in long grass, so a second shot was fired into him. That was not necessary, as he was already dead, but we did not know that.

You can see the difference in length.

quote:

The longer bullet was fired at him at about 200 yards.

The bullets described above which failed us, were both fired at pretty close range, and were probably a little unstable, resulting in the deflections.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I probably used the Barnes X bullet more than most hunters, killing several hundred animals, ranging from duikers to buffalo, and I have never had a single failure.

Most of the bullets loose one or more of their petals, a few do not loose anything at all as the HP closes up.

But, they never failed to kill the animal.



Above are two Walterhog bullets, which behave perform just as well as the barnes X.

Both bullets were recovered from a cape buffalo bull.
The longer bullet was fired at him at about 200 yards. It entered his chest at an angle. He ran off and was found lying down in long grass, so a second shot was fired into him. That was not necessary, as he was already dead, but we did not know that.

You can see the difference in length.

I too am certain I have killed a couple hundred animals with Barnes X/Solid, never had a problem, and I personally love em.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
never had a problem, and I personally love em.

That's the problem with hunters and bullets. We all have such firmly held opinions and none of us will brook any argument or debate whatsoever.

And what's more, I still detest TBBC & Rhino bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
never had a problem, and I personally love em.

That's the problem with hunters and bullets. We all have such firmly held opinions and none of us will brook any argument or debate whatsoever.

And what's more, I still detest TBBC & Rhino bullets.

Steve - Isn't it a bit difficult to determine a bullet's worth, when you are ALWAYS sitting in front of a computer screen???

C'mon Steve.....an invitation here!!!!!! In your finest English please.

Aaron,

If I were, it'd mean my plan of being completely retired from the field by my last birthday (which would have been my 30th anniversary of hunting Africa) had worked but it didn't..... I've made it to semi retirement which started about 3 years ago and I'm not even sure I'll be able to maintain that..... the odd thing is I can't decide if I'm happy about the situation or not. - I guess I'm not disappointed though.

One thing's for sure. I definately, absolutely want to be completely retired from the field by my 35th anniversary of hunting Africa.

I think!

Neil. You know me mate.... I'm always polite. Well, nearly always.