Recv'd this via email from an old friend and wondered what everyone else thinks. Really, the author doesn't mince words, eh?

The Price Of Pansyhood

A few unorganized thoughts regarding the events in New York:

(1) We lost. Our moral posturing about our degradation is merely
embarrassing. We have been made fools of, expertly and calculatedly, in the
greatest military defeat the country has suffered since we fled from Viet
Nam. The Moslem world is laughing and dancing in the streets. The rest of
the earth, while often sympathetic, sees us as the weak and helpless nation
that we are.

The casualty figures aren't in, but 10,000 dead seems reasonable,
and we wring our hands and speak of grief therapy.

We lost.

(2) We cannot stop it from happening again. Thousands of aircraft
constantly use O'Hare, a few minutes flying time from the Sears Tower.

(3) Our politicians and talking heads speak of "a cowardly act of
terrorism." It was neither cowardly nor, I think, terrorism. Hijacking an
aircraft and driving it into a building isn't cowardly. Would you do it? It
requires great courage and dedication -- which our enemies have, and we do
not. One may mince words, but to me the attack looked like an act of war.
Not having bombing craft of their own, they used ours. When we bombed Hanoi
and Hamburg, was that terrorism?

(4) The attack was beautifully conceived and executed. These guys
are good. They were clearly looking to inflict the maximum humiliation on
the United States, in the most visible way possible, and they did. The sight
of those two towers collapsing will leave nobody's mind. If we do nothing of
importance in return, and it is my guess that we won't, the entire earth
will see that we are a nation of epicenes. Silly cruise-missile attacks on
Afghanistan will just heighten the indignity.

(5) In watching the coverage, I was struck by the tone of passive
acquiescence. Not once, in hours of listening, did I hear anyone express
anger. No one said, coldly but in deadly seriousness, "People are going to
die for this, a whole lot of people." There was talk of tracking down bin
Laden and bringing him to justice. "Terrorism experts" spoke of months of
investigation to find who was responsible, which means we will do nothing.
Blonde bimbos babbled of coping strategies and counseling and how our
children needed support. There was no talk of retaliation.

(6) The Israelis, when hit, hit back. They hit back hard. But Israel
is run by men. We are run by women. Perhaps two-thirds of the newscasters
were blonde drones who spoke of the attack over and over as a tragedy, as
though it had been an unusually bad storm -- unfortunate, but inevitable,
and now we must get on with our lives. The experts and politicians,
nominally male, were effeminate and soft little things. When a feminized
society runs up against male enemies -- and bin Laden, whatever else he is,
is a man -- it loses. We have.

(7) We haven't conceded that the Moslem world is our enemy, nor that
we are at war. We see each defeat and humiliation in isolation, as a unique
incident unrelated to anything else. The 241 Marines killed by the truck
bomb in Beirut, the extended humiliation of the hostages taken by Iran, the
war with Iraq, the bombing of the Cole, the destruction of the embassies in
Kenya and Tanzania, the devastation of the Starke, the Saudi barracks, the
dropping of airliner after airliner -- these we see as anecdotes, like
pileups of cars on a snowy road. They see these things as war.

We face an enemy more intelligent than we are.

(8) We think we are a superpower. Actually we are not, except in the
useless sense of having nuclear weapons. We could win an air war with almost
anyone, yes, or a naval war in mid-Pacific. Few Americans realize how small
our forces are today, how demoralized and weakened by social
experimentation. If we had to fight a ground war in terrain with cover, a
war in which we would take casualties, we would lose.

(9) I have heard some grrr-woofwoofery about how we should invade
Afghanistan and teach those ragheads a lesson. Has anyone noticed where
Afghanistan is? How would we get there? Across Pakistan, a Moslem country?
Or through India? Do we suppose Iran would give us overflight rights to bomb
another Moslem country? Or will our supply lines go across Russia through
Turkmenistan? Do we imagine that we have the airlift or sealift? What effect
do we think bombing might have on Afghanistan, a country that is essentially
rubble to begin with?

We backed out of Somalia, a Moslem country, when a couple of GIs got
killed and dragged through the streets on TV. Afghans are not pansies. They
whipped the Russians. Our sensitive and socially-conscious troops would curl
up in balls.

(10) To win against a more powerful enemy, one forces him to fight a
kind of war for which he isn't prepared. Iraq lost the Gulf War because it
fought exactly the kind of war in which American forces are unbeatable:
Hussein played to his weaknesses and our strengths. The Vietnamese did the
opposite. They defeated us by fighting a guerrilla war that didn't give us
anything to hit. They understood us. We didn't understand them.

The Moslem world is doing the same thing. Because their troops, or
terrorists as we call them, are not sponsored by a country, we don't know
who to hit. Note that Yasser Arafat, bin Laden, and the Taliban are all
denying any part in the destruction of New York. At best, we might, with our
creaky intelligence apparatus, find Laden and kill him. It's not worth
doing: Not only would he have defeated America as nobody ever has, but he
would then be a martyr. Face it: The Arabs are smarter than we are.

(11) We are militarily weak because we have done what we usually do:
If no enemy is immediately in sight, we cut our forces to the bone, stop
most R&D, and focus chiefly on sensitivity training about homosexuals. When
we need a military, we don't have one. Then we are inutterably surprised.

(12) The only way we could save any dignity and respect in the world
be to hit back so hard as to make teeth rattle around the world. A good
approach would be to have NSA fabricate intercepts proving that Libya was
responsible, mobilize nationally, invade, and make Libya permanently a US
colony. Most Arab countries are militarily helpless, and that is the only
kind our forces could defeat. Doing this, doing anything other than
whimpering, would require that ancient military virtue known as "balls."
Does Katie Couric have them?

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'Trapper'

What do I think?

1) We lost a surprise attack like we lost the �battle� of Pearl Harbor. The Federal troops lost the first Battle of Bull Run. We lost the battle at Kasserine Pass. We learn hard, but we learn.
I don�t think the entire Moslem world is laughing and dancing. Some of them are. I�m sure you can find folks in Japan, Germany, England, Canada, Mexico and even the United States who are laughing at us and saying we got what we deserved. You can find some folks on this forum saying this.

2) No, we cannot stop it with 100% reliability. But we can severely reduce the likelihood.

3) I don�t think the terrorist were cowards either, just fanatics. I don�t think Japanese troops rushing machine guns in banzai charges were cowards. I don�t think Iranian children rushing across minefields barefoot and unarmed were cowards. But I�d be just as happy to kill any one of them.
�Hijacking an aircraft and driving it into a building isn't cowardly. Would you do it? It
requires great courage and dedication -- which our enemies have, and we do
not.� Saying that Americans do not have courage is an incredibly stupid assumption. We just apply our courage differently. Remember this quote? �Your job is not to die for your country. It is to make the other poor dumb bastard die for his.�

4) �These guys are good.� Yes, they are. They are not stupid rag-tops or camel jockeys. They are intelligent, calculating, and dedicated.
�Silly cruise-missile attacks on Afghanistan will just heighten the indignity. � Umm, not so sure about that. Silly, blind, lynch mob knee jerk reactions might heighten the indignity. Ruthless liquidation of the perpetrators and all who aided them will not.

5) The TV news may not have said it, but many newspapers are calling for Revenge. The Secretaries of Defense and State are calling for it. I quit watching TV news long ago, only took it up again on Tuesday. They are good for getting cameras to the scene and reporting breaking News. When they start analyzing things I pretty much tune them out.

6) A bit chauvinistic, don�t you think? We have several women in our office who are ready to push the nuke button right now. Our politicians had to get elected by women�s votes. Our society does become too touchy-feely in times of peace. It takes a figurative 2X4 across the head to get our attention and make us mad. But when we get mad � ask the Japanese and Germans what happens.

7) I don�t believe that the entire Moslem world is our enemy. Saeed, is it? I think that the Japanese still want to see us on our economic knees. I think a lot of the people in Middle Eastern countries see their traditional way of life becoming Westernized and resent us. Do you resent the growing presence of Spanish speaking people in your communities? I think a lot of Middle Eastern folks enjoy Western culture and merely incorporate it into their own culture much as we have done with other cultures. The phrase �As Arabian as a hamburger� could become as true as �As American as pizza, chow mein and tacos.� I think the French hate the English and Americans and by law prevent the use of English words in their language.

SOME Moslems are at war with us, not all.

8) �Few Americans realize how small our forces are today, how demoralized and weakened by social experimentation."

Our armed forces are smaller. They are currently demoralized by being forced to be the referee in long standing cultural feuds in which they have no emotional stake.

�If we had to fight a ground war in terrain with cover, a war in which we would take casualties, we would lose.�
If we had to fight a ground war in which we had no goal in sight and no personal commitment, we would compromise our way out of it.
If we had to fight a war of revenge for deeds done against our countrymen, if we had to fight a war that was a personal war in the heart of every American fighting man, we would kick the fucking shit out of anybody on this planet. We would take casualties in that war, but those casualties would only spur the survivors toward further commitment to win at all costs.

9) How would we get to Afghanistan? Across Pakistan, of course. Hmm, how does that work? Mr. Pakistan, we will pay you a nice rent to use your country as a staging area for an attack on Afghanistan. No, you don�t want to do that? Well then, we are going to fly some Marines across your country from a carrier battle group in the Indian Ocean to take the airport at Kabul. If you object you may file your grievances with the UN. If you hinder them in any way then whoever does the hindering can expect an immediate air to ground missile attack followed by as yet to be decided retribution. Oh, by the way, we�re sorry for the inconvenience.

It's nice to have super carriers laden with F-14's and F-18's!

�Afghans are not pansies. They whipped the Russians.� No they aren�t and yes they did. Because the Russians fought the same guerilla war we did in Viet Nam. Hopefully we learned from that.

�We backed out of Somalia, a Moslem country, when a couple of GIs got killed and dragged through the streets on TV. Our sensitive and socially-conscious troops would curl up in balls.� Right now, today, go say that in front of a company sized formation of the 75th Rangers. Say it in front of a single Ranger. Go ahead, I dare you!
See #8 above.

However, I don�t think all this talk of a protracted ground war will be necessary. We are fighting smoke, not countries. If air strikes are needed anywhere in the world, we can figure out a way to carry them out. It�s nice to have a fleeet of cruise missile carrying nuclear powered submarines!

I personally think that Sierra Matchkings applied to the appropriate foreheads from sniper rifles will be as or more effective in this particular conflict than Tomahawk cruise missiles. I could be wrong though.

10) I agree with a lot of this. I think that tactical nuclear strikes or even conventional air strikes would not be very effective unless we discover that a country�s government is behind this. I think we have to fight a counter terrorist war. Something we are not prepared for. But we learn. I remember an old movie from early 1942 where the cocky kid says �we�ll wipe those rice burners off the map in a week.� No, Tommy�, says the handsome Army captain, �we are in for a long struggle.�

We are in for along struggle. We have only half heartedly engaged in one so far. As I stated above, it often takes a 2X4 across America�s head to get our attention. But when you get our attention, look out. I think the terrorist organizations, not just Arab or Moslem, but ALL terrorist organizations, just got out attention.

11) Unfortunately this is very true.

12) We still have to keep the moral high ground. When we KNOW that we are the good guys we have been historically unstoppable and unbeatable. I personally don�t think that our military might will be all that much use except on a limited and highly surgical scale against a terrorist enemy. We will have to develop new strategies and new tactics. But I think we will. I think that George Bush has balls. I think the people he has surrounded himself with have balls. We shall see.

Finally, this is NOT a war to be won with a single airstrike or a single battle. It will be protracted. This is more like trying to fight the Mafia than the Wehrmacht. Lots of cut throats in the night instead of shrapnel wounds. But it is one we have to win. And I think we will.

[This message has been edited by Jim in Idaho (edited 09-14-2001).]

As has been gone over in this forum, one of the issues here is that this act is not condoned by the HUGE majority of those of the muslim faith. To the same degree that IRA terrorism is frowned upon by the other catholics of the world.

A lot of the other comments are accurate, except none seem to address why these people believe so much in a cause they are willing to die for it. Until our planet solves that problem we will continue to have this happen over and over..

And our military is a classic example of how politics can render the most tremendous organization inneffective to changing situations.

Jim- Thank you!

Thank you for saying it better, more eloquently and more efficiently then I could ever attempt...you said what I think and feel exactly.

Jim, thanks Buddy!

It seems that every day that goes by I hear that we should try to sort this out with a meeting of some sort and try to bring an end to the violence. On the radio, in the news, on the TV the callers are all saying we should be the bigger country and say we quit you win and let it stop.

I am amazed that people would call in and state this as if it were remotely possible. Are this many Americans uninformed or just plain stupid? Do they think we are now "all even" and they will leave us alone if we do not attack in return? Do they think it's over if we say we give up? Do they think we will all be safe spending the money on Airport security instead of some kind of attack of our own?

I'm sickend by this thought process, so many callers to the radio seem to think it's all over and everyone will live happily ever after if we do not respond. These people must all believe that coyotes and bunnies can live together in peace and harmony.

We are certainly in for a real bad next few months maybe years. All you people who put off going to Africa must realize it may never happen for you in your lifetime if this gets worse.

We are going to have a different world since 9-11-01 then we have ever seen before. This is the worst thing to happen to this country in our lives. After we respond things will happen again to us. We will respond again and who knows where it will go from there? What we do know is international travel with a blue passport is gonna be much more interesting!

You bet we need to fight back, this is not over if we do nothing. It gets worse if we do nothing, it gets worse if we do something too but it does not mean we hide our heads in the sand. You have to thin them down once in a while.

Like mowing the lawn for me. It's always there for me to take care of but once mowed it stays ok for a while. These terrorists or holy warriors need to be mowed down. In time they will grow back and we will need to mow again.

I am just baffled by the comments by people who say we should just agree they win so this will end. IT WILL NEVER END! can't they get it in there heads? it will never end as long as there is a USA.

The original letter expresses a lot of feelings I share about our population of "feel good" liberals who wish to sit and talk it over and just be friends. WAKE UP FOLKS it will never end. We need to mow every so often to slow the growth, and we will always need to mow, or at least be ready to.

This is the new way of life. To bad it will take this act to show many of these bleeding hearts the light. Thank your God Gore is not our president for this!jj

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

Very good discussion guys. I agree with many of your points. Thanks for puting things in perspective.

Remember the movie "Stripes". Bill Murray tells his buddies; "If we go to battle, don't worry, I'll be right behind you."

Ski+3

Jim: I totally agree with you and your response of Trapper's post.

Trapper: I really want to know if your friend served in the military... I asked this questions earlier on this thread and no one answered...the reason I ask is that people who are name callers, and critical of what others say and do, like your friend, frequently do not know what they are talking about. Has you friend served in the U.S. military? did he ever served in combat? If he has, then I will excuse his rant, but if he has not, then he is just another idiot with his head up his ass. All the people who attacked the guy on this thread who proposed reasons the U.S. was attacked, those are the people who really piss me off. In all likelihood they are themselves a bunch of goddamned draft dodgers, and only selectively choose when to be patriotic. People who did not serve in Viet Nam but have the nerve to criticize how it that war was fought, those are the people I have no respect for...these same people, who never served the United States, are the same people that would attack a fellow American who expresses an opinion. These same people want, even demand, the rights and privileges of being an American citizen without having to sacrifice anything. The tragedy on Tuesday, I am totally convinced, was caused by Israel...Israel is run by a bunch first generation terrorist. If Israel would pack up its bags and move to a place where there were no residents to kill, a place where they would have no neighbors, I believe the world would be a much safer place. As it is, I think it is possible that we now heading into the 3rd WW.

Robert

Well from what I see on the world of TV in some respects it is a media goon show.
With commentators trying to steal lists from any desk they walk by (unidentified source) to repeatedly asking questions that a moron could see that were these answered the whole world could just move enemies around so as not to be caught up in any reprisal.
As in everything in our world the media will not quit trying to prove they should have a job!!!!
The President has shown great restraint in his actions and has now got from most countries commitments to if not participate in the upcoming event at least they will not interfere.
This I belive is a master stroke,
Don't worry the poles are giving GW the permission to go and I belive he will strike hard and long once the "ducks are in a row".
There will also always be some who would strike and then be left with the whole world against them THANK GOODNESS cooler heads prevailed!

As a retired USAF officer I was struck by the comment about why bomb since their country was essentially rubble anyway. Good point but I think the idea of making rubble of the rest of it has some merit and then I think t would be instructive to the other miscreats if we "bounced the rubble" for a few days with some additional bombing. B-52s are rreally good at this...hell from 35,000 feet we don't even need to drop bombs we could strip the junk yards of America of old cars that have been compacted and just drop them. I would even put forth the idea of saving some of the rubble from The Towers to drop on the first load as a symbolic gesture.

Thought provoking comments here, guys! Some of you provide comments that show some considered restraint, others are ready to go do, right now - and that is about what I expected to hear.
As to the miltary service: my friend is a real true veteran, two tours in the 'Nam, brown water Navy running PBR's and riverine patrol craft so I would think he knows a little of which he speaks.
As to my bona fides, I spent 4 and a half years in the US Navy as a Miassle Fire Control Technician (FTM) so I guess I can claim to be a vet also.
Now as to what I think on the matter, for what little that is worth. I believe we should be sure, be very sure indeed, of who is at fault and whom to blame, then the punishment should be swift, sure and complete. If we are going to waste our men and resources for nothing as we did in 'Nam then I say to hell with it, let's just stay home and live like a bunch of rats with no ambitions, no hopes. If we fight, then less fight like Hell and get it over with!
Someone once said that young men fight our wars but we all pay for it and as I grow older this becomes more and more appearent to me. And another, well used but very appropo: "One can never live until they have almost died. Life has a flavor, for those who have fought for it, that the protected can never know." This is so very very true.
One final thought: Most anyone can proceed so far with caution and then reach a point where they wan something to happen, indeed, something must happen. I can relate this to having been through the Cuban missile crisis and staying at General Quarters for days on end. At first, abject fear and dread but as time drags by, you become numb to the fear and pray that something, anything, will happen and happen soon. When we pulled the a "Pretty Bird" missiles off the rails and ran out the dull green birds you knew playtime was over and this was for real. Your whole and entire future was there before you and dependent upon who blinked first. I truly thought we were poised on the brink of WW3 then, and I feel we are right there once again.
Think long and hard before you advocate a leap into this thing. Once started, it won't be easy to stop, and in my opinion, it won't stop soon. A lot of good people are going to die on both sides.
Best regards,

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'Trapper'

Trapper: You have my respect and your friend does too. Sometimes I am guilty of the thing I criticize. Although I meant everthing I said...some things just get under my skin. Clear thinking must prevail, but I fear a terrible conflict with few winners.

Robert

I'm sure our British friends would agree that Margaret Thatcher has balls. I was in London during the Falklands war and I lived there during her fight with the coal miners and Arthur Scargill, and when the IRA tried to blow her up in Brighton. She's one woman I wouldn't be ashamed to follow.

The comments about social experimentation and emasculation are true, and the talking heads are an apt example, but I haven't noticed a lot of hand wringing, whining women standing around the rubble in NYC. They're shedding the same blood sweat and tears as the men.

Im personaly pushing for the idea of "Total War". The Russian's, and we in Vietnam, did not win the war in Agfganistan because they were never able to kill the Leadership of the enemy, plus most of all, they were totally denied the use of airspace due to our Stinger's missile's that we armed the rebel's with.

Im no hero but I am a student of History and I know how war's are won , and how they are lost. I dont make the case for nuclear weapon's lightly, in fact quite the opposite. But I truly believe its only a few years away until we lose 500,000 to a suitcase nuke in one of our cities, or , to a planeful of Sarin, or Soman.

I truly think we have to respond to this threat TODAY with all our power, all our weapon's. We must forge a new world order where countries, includeing our dear friends the Saudi's, will not dare to give aid, resupply, and support to these Bastard's.

I might add that Ahfganistan is in a part of the world where we would simply have enormous Logistical problem's in any Offensive operation. Without the aid of Pakistan we could almost forget it, we would have to fight them as well. It would be tough, we armed them. They even have F-16's armed with the last generation of sidewinder, they have Stinger, Nuke's, Med Range ballistic Missile's, chem-Bio weapon's...ect

Pakistan would be a tougher nut to crack then Iraq by a factor of.......who know's ?

Are American's ready for that ? Will American's back a Nuclear showdown with a Pakistan to get to the Taliban ? will they support a Nuclear 1st strike for 2 skyscraper's ?

I will ask the Vet's and the Military men here what they think ? How hard do you think it would be to violate airspace of a Country like Pakistan, possibly have to engage them while trying to insert, resupply and support, airborne forces in Ahfganistan ?

These are the HARD question's, the real ones. Soon the "Stealth" capability of our airplanes will be challenged by a cheap radar set, two or three Pent-lll PC,s, and a couple of cell phones.

Im very concerned that the American people are not up to this, Im worried...................10

10,

I'm not sure why you want only military folks to comment as they probably don't have a monopoly on strategic operations, but here's my 2 cents regarding Pakistani air space. We don't necessarily need stealth technology to get over/through Pakistan although it may reduce casualties. A few well placed ARMs and they'll keep their heads down. If that doesn't work and they shoot at us, well too bad for them they just became combatants and we resort to DB Bill's plan. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Kernel

P.S. USAF 86-93

Trapper:

Your friend hit the nail on the head. The local news is mostly pray vigils and sensitivity training for our poor children.

I especially appreciated the comment on Katy Couric. I dislike her so much it makes me sick. But it makes me more sick watching women watching her on TV and believing every word she utters.

Tuesday night all the gas stations were lined up for blocks. I stopped across the street from one of them to take a head count. Every one of them were women, except for one guy. I think his name was Bruce.

Will

Well since we are all posting emails, here's one I got today:

I'm upset just like everybody else. I was reading that Afghanistan is fearful of a military attack and I'm like, well, HELLO, one really simple way to AVOID an attack is to hand over Osama bin Laden!

But despite my initial reactions, I'd like to think I've been paying attention long enough to know that simply bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age (which wouldn't be too tough) isn't going to solve the problem of terrorism. More likely it'll increase desperation among already sick and desperate individuals.

Yeah, at 12 noon I'm going to go someplace (possibly a church, possibly the forest preserve near my apartment)to pray...but I'll be praying for WISDOM FOR OUR LEADERS above all else.

I truly believe the US has been given an opportunity to take the ideals it was built on -- ideals in which I believe -- and truly step up its global leadership such that we can begin to work on the root causes that result in people blowing themselves up against skyscrapers. To do this requires a little more thought and control beyond this "eye for an eye" rhetoric I'm hearing all around me.

There's nothing wrong with being angry. Hell, I'M angry, and shocked, and sick at heart. But we need to focus on next steps...and do so with WISDOM AND FORETHOUGHT above all else.

And regarding unleashing the nukes, what are we going to do when Russia, China, Pakistan and possibly India start asking for reparations when they start getting radioactive fallout all over the place? Is anyone suggesting that we would just stand by if another country threatened to nuke Mexico?
I guarantee you that if one of those countries got pissed off enoough by us doing this, there is a very good chance that a low yield suitcase bomb would come up missing in one of their inventories soon! All it would take is someones family living on a border getting poisoned and contracting leukemia, and it wouldn't have to be an officer either, just some supply guys' mom....

Before we bomb the hell out of Pakistan here, I should say I read in the paper that Pakistan has said they will assist the USA. Hopefully we won't have to kill an Pakistani's.

Jim echoed alot of my thoughts, well said Jim!

I'm against nuclear weapons because:
1) They would really piss off countries that would be allies to the US.
2) They WILL kill the wrong people.
3) The "bad guys" might have some and decide to nuke NY next time!!
4) I really don't think they are necessary to win. If you decide, in this day and age, to use a nuke, you are saying "we can't win any other way, so we are willing to risk destroying the world just so we don't lose." (If I can't be quarterback, I'm taking my ball and leaving)

Retaliation is necessary, otherwise you might as well tell the world, "we'll talk to you if you blow something up first."

1, The bad guy's are GOING to Nuke an American city in time if we dont stop them now. I hate to remind you guy's but they just blew 5,000 men,woman, and children civilians out of two skyscraper's. Do you think these people wouldnt use a Nuclear weapon if and when they get their hands on one ?

2, China, India, and Pakistan, have seen fit to explode Nuclear devices in the atmosphere many,many times in the past. I strongly suggest that we tell them to stick their "reparation's" up their collective ass's. And what possible reason would you even have for mentioning Mexico ?

3, If anyone actually think's that the Pakistan authorities are really going to cooperate 100% with us then you are a much,much more trusting person then I. You seem to forget that they are one of three Nation's that actually has Diplomatic relation's with the Taliban.

Do you really think that they are going to help us destroy them ? Hell, half of the Taliban's training camp's are in Pakistan itself!!!

And that is what we must do, we have to destroy the Political entities that harbor these terrorist's. Simply killing , or arresting, a few terr's is the cowards way out.

Gatehouse maybe you can pass up on the smilie's until we dig our people out of the rubble that, once was, out tallest BLDNG's. You show a very un-educated view of our Nuclear deterrant. The US Nuclear deterrant is the only reason there is any freedom in the world at all.

They have ALWAYS been an option. We have used them in the past and it was never questioned that we would have used them in the Cold War, or even The Gulf War.

Yes, nuclear weapon's were "in-Theatre" dureing the Gulf war. They came "THIS" close to being used, Saddam actually gave his battlefield commander's the authority to release their chem-Bio weapon's. Its still un-clear why they didnt follow his order's , if in fact, they didnt.

An American , and British, Nuclear strike on Iraq came very close to happening.

Gatehouse your afraid of "Pissing off other countries"? Are you an American citizen ? I bet most of the world would be more then willing to "just accept" this loss of American life and property, Canadian's most of all. Hell , they all have an economy to worry about.

I hear all these "lifelong civilian's" telling me how we can win this war "conventionaly". But none of them can tell me how , instead, I get smilies with "The Pakistani's are going to help us".

Nothing personal Gatehouse my friend. Forgive my seriousness because Im very worried about this whole business, very worried.

I truly believe that we will be destroyed by these people , and the Govt.'s that harbor and aid them, if we dont destroy them first. I also believe that each and every country mentioned would have already replied with Nuclear weapon's if they suffered the kind of attack we just did. Russia and China wouldnt have hesitated.

A surgiccal Nuclear strike, useing Block-ll, or Block-lll Tomohawk's, set on Low-Blow "5kt's" would show our resolve as well as remove the threat, :IE, Kill The Taliban. Residual fallout would be almost non-existant, and besides, Russia still owe's the world Billion's from the meltdown of their shitty little Nuclear Power program.

Show that kind of resolve and NO Country would ever even think of helping these shitheads get their hands on a nuke. You forget, dictatorship's and communist parites exist ONLY to protect themselve's. Their small, small cadre of elite leadership. China is a Nation of Billion's that toil's for the safety and betterment of a small cadre of leader's.

These character's want to live. They dont want any terrorist group's threatening THEIR survival, and the transfer of THEIR power to THEIR children. You think a group like that is going to risk their total destruction just because we nuked the Taliban ?

Im afraid the window of opportunity is already closeing. We are already showing to much weakness.........10

10,
You are correct. Our response must be devasting to those who harbor these vermin. The world must understand that if you harbor / allow terrorists safe harbor you will pay a terrible price in loss of human life.

This is a war! There is only one way to win a war! You must make the enemy pay a price they are unwilling to pay. Already, the fundamentalist muslims in several countries are crying for a holly war against America. Unfortunately, it may be time that these poor deluted souls find out what war really is. The way America fights a war is truly awesome. Many millions will die! Just look at the last "war" we fought (that would be WWII). Even in our prolonged police actions millions perished. The muslim world has never seen anything like what they are about to experience. I only hope that when the dust clears they learn to hate violence much like the Japanese who turned the code of Bushido from cutting of head to economics.

Regardless, when US service men are sent to foreign lands to protect our freedom and ensure our security, we as a nation must not fail to give them 110% support.

I for one do not personally think that this attack warrants the use of anything other than one or two Ohio Class Trident Subs. They possess enough firepower to resolve 99% of the issue. Also, our lithium bombs do not produce that much fallout (relatively speaking). They are much more efficient and cleaner than the earlier hydrogen units.

It is time for everyone to understand clearly and witout possibility of misunderstanding. You spill American blood on Amercian soil and the result is the total annihilation of your race!

Hello,
One observation from a "lifelong civilian".
Regarding the "Courage" that it takes to fly a plane into a building, let me recount how the Japaneese did it.
It was very simple. They locked the pilot in FROM THE OUTSIDE. And they did this in spite of the fact that the Japaneese Zero pilots were some of the most patriotic Japneese military people. I would be willing to bet (A box of ballistic tips, to keep it friendly). That these terrorists had some type of anti-chicken mechanism devised in their plans. I would bet that the "teams" put on board each plane were seperately indoctrinated in such a manner that they would not only watch the passengers, but each other and be willing to kill each other should one have a last minute attack of good judgement.

No, it did not take bravery to crash the plane into the buildings. It does not take courage to do a lot of things, and just because somebody would do something that I would not does not make them courageous. Just stupid or insane, or homicidal, or genocidal.

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Safety & Ethics,Accuracy, Velocity, Energy
Joe M

rwj,
I responded to your post over on the other thread, it was a little late and perhaps you have not read it...I was a gentlemen on that post but you've ticked me off now.

I think your making too much over the fact that you were in the Navy, and that gives you the last word in all things holy...Hey, this country is run by civilians and they do have a say so in what happens....Yes, I have served my country proudly protecting your kids from drugs as best I could, what with hands tied and that has come to light recently... that ought to be worth something to you...and give me some degree of say so..

I know a lot of civilians that have died for their country recently in NY, firemen and Police officers, I have many friends in Drug Enforcement that died for this country. I know many who have been wounded (self included) performing their duty and none of them were in the armed services...

What I'm wondering is where you get off setting yourself above us, sailor boy? While you were sleeping between clean sheets on some ship, some of us were rotting our feet off in some So. American jungle raiding Heroin labs.

I just think you should re-consider that position, on such things...All of us are a part of the big picture....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

All this sabre rattleing isn't going to get the job done, and opinions are like ass holes everybody has one, and none are uique!

No matter what we do, it will take more time than some want, and less than some want, but that makes little difference in the longrun, because what ever we do there will be those who will run to Canada, and there will be some who will fight to the death. But make no mistake, no matter which side of that fence you are on the fire will burn your ass sooner or later. You are now in what people in some countries have had to put up with for all their lives, and the average American citizen now understands why we fought wars while they were still in some other country. We fought them early so they would not get to our shores. It is one thing to fight a war with your wife, and kids ten thousand miles away, but a Zebra of a different stripe, when your family is in the bunker with you. Now you know why the soldiers fought so hard when they were fighting in their own turf. The American stages demonstrations,and congress listen to the cowards who stayed home and smoked dope while men were dieing in the jungle, and then called the vets baby killers, but they had no idea what they were talking about. When you are fighting in the home land of someone else, he, his wife, and his 8 yr old child is the ENEMY,and you shoot them, because any one of that family will gladly drop a gernade in your hootch, and sit on your skull to eat your rations. War is not a pritty thing my friends, but it is sometimes a must, this is one of those times IMO!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art